Non-Messianic Posters

[Clare73]

Yes, they are parallel scriptures.

Many would be censors might respond to this observation, insisting that drawing Christian attention to them ought be banned.

But for people who understand Jesus to have said, I am the Truth, it seem fair to wonder why the New Testament would seem to write identical scriptures in some cases:

Because that's what happened?

 

[Clare73]

Those things would all be interesting and make for lively discussion.
But my understanding here, in this thread, that we are restrained from such debates and commentary.

I am merely presenting scripture from 1Kings which bears strange resemblance to scrioture, of then almost identical, fom the New Testament.

For instance, these passages seem to parallel one another:

Is there supposed to be signifcance here somewhere?

Except that Peter was not Christ's successor. Christ has no "successor."
Christ wrote no letter, John wrote the letter. After his ascension, Christ gave revelation to Paul as well as John.

It would be great if you were more accurate in your reporting of the Word of God written.

 

[yedida]

Yeah, by their detractors.

If Christians weren't so notorious historically for antinomiamism, antisemitism, supercessionism and replacementism, I guess I wouldn't mind being called a Christian.

But since He was Hebrew and not Greek, why would I care to call him by a greek term? It's not like Mashiach or Messiah is too terribly difficult to say....And I refuse to call him a non-name like jesus, so why on earth would I call him christ? His given name was/is Yeshua, and He is God's Messiah. Therefore, I'm His disciple and that's what I call myself. I just don't identify with the terms christ, christian (not the teachings of the christian church) and I'm perfectly happy not being connected with the malevolent history of christianity against its own and against His own.

 

[yedida]

My condolences.
I too have run into self righteous authoritative people who are intolerant of other views on the bible than they, themselves hold.
I am always amused, though, when it is clear they do not like the apparently too good points I make which go against the grain of their ideas.

Christians seem to forget that was exactly the thing that the early christians experienced.
In fact, it is their complaint against the Jews of 32AD that they condemn Judaism for the crucifixion.

I was censored for merely asking how Bible readers respond to the one to one correlation between what Elijah had done in 800BC, and what Jesus seems to have replicated in 32AD.


I mean, verse against verse, there is an undeniable duplication in the scriptures.

plenty more, too...

One is allowed to present similarities and question them. One is even allowed to bring up what appears to be contradictions and/or errors and question them. That's not a problem. The problems arise when one begins to post against the beliefs of any particular faith group.
You were not censored by "self-righteous" moderators/administrators, they were just doing their job. My understanding regarding your first postings is that one of the complaints was that you were stating (not asking, or suggesting maybe, but stating as fact) that Yeshua was raised - resurrected, not by the power of the Holy Spirit or God, but by Moses and Elijah. That is not scriptural and certainly against what christians and messianics believe. Therefore, you were violating CF rules in making these statements.
This was just one of the complaints that arose. There were others, including the fact that even after being requested to refrain, you ignored the request and continued.
It is not posters as individuals that get censored, it's what is posted. The message must conform to the beliefs of the specific forum. It is not just here in Messianic Judaism, it's site-wide rules with the exception of Unorthodox Theology. There you are allowed to make such statements.
Anyone is welcome here in MJ as long as CF/MJ guidelines are followed.


Just as an aside, just because one flies the proper icon does not give license to teach/debate within the forum against its main tenets. You must still stay within CF rules and regulations even while flying the scroll icon here.

 

[Zeek]

Had you been here earlier this year (or even late last year)*, you would have heard almost everyone on these fora clamouring for much tighter controls on newbies and, in particular, those like Phaedron who, within a couple of posts, suddenly change their icon to either escape the rules or to blast us.
It was clear from all the troubles we went through that it was down to posters here to be active in pointing newbies to the SoP in the first instance. It is all well and good for certain posters, and for you, to cry 'FOUL', but this is what we are supposed to be doing where posters a) suddenly change their icon or b) suddenly attack us.

Hi,

I was just making a general observation about what it is like in virtually every place I have visited on these Boards...it seems many people have an expectancy of being attacked or their theology challenged to such a degree it is a bit unpleasant sometimes.

The two imstances you quote are ones that everybody should be able to recognise and deal with quickly should they come up...especially those that serve to maintain unity and fellowship amongst us and have the irksome duty of weeding out the trouble-makers.

So I am not shouting or whispering 'foul'...just discussing.

One poster on here, not too long ago, tried the softly, softly path that that same poster now advocates - and we entered into a very long and very difficult time because the newbie was told it was OK to change the icon to xxxxxx so they could post what they wanted! I have had Staff sending me PM's or Reps suggesting that certain newbies be reported - long before I have it thought it necessary, as well as invites to be a Mod (which I have declined)!

I can see how that must be frustrating.

We are meant to be pro-active in this - not passive! Passivity has led to most of the problems on here in the year I have been here - this is why a number of posters jump when a newbie starts to attack us or flips between icons.

There is a big difference between someone who does this stuff, and others who in all innocence get tarred with the same brush merely because people are suspicious and distrusting.

I would also say there is a difference between being pro-active and verging on paranoia, and at times IMO, it seems the distinction is blurred..it really doesn't make for good fellowship as one is put on the back foot and forced to justify ones intentions the whole time.

An understanding of what we have been through and the many Staff who have tried to sort out the problems (up to 5 at one point, I believe) and how close we have been to this forum imploding, will give you an indication of why things are as they are, and why a number of posters left and then returned a few months ago, frustrated at the inaction of suggested attempts to clean up the Messianic fora by ridding us of the problems caused by newbies, though most have now returned.

Yep, I guess if I had been in the thick of it I might see things slightly differently...but I am making an observation that is across the Boards and is not the monopoly of this forum.

* I assume you were not since you seem not to be aware of what we have been through

As I said...I was here, but not active, and I am sorry for you guys that things got to such a state.

B'rachot v'shalom l'cha. Zazal

 

[Marie Lynn]

Chavak...you may be non-Messianic in the way it is stated here...but in a wider sense, all Jews are Messianic, it is just that many do not yet recognise Yeshua as the Messiah spoken of in the Tenakh.

I realize this comment was for Chavak but was somewhat surprised to see this statement in a Messianic forum.

Is this a standard belief among Messianics that the Jews are "yet" to discover their savior and messiah in the person of Jesus/Yeshua? Would you be referring specifically to Romans 11: 25, the hardening until the fullness of the Gentiles, or were there more in the New Testament?

 

[cupid dave]

One is allowed to present similarities and question them. One is even allowed to bring up what appears to be contradictions and/or errors and question them. That's not a problem. The problems arise when one begins to post against the beliefs of any particular faith group.
You were not censored by "self-righteous" moderators/administrators, they were just doing their job. My understanding regarding your first postings is that one of the complaints was that you were stating (not asking, or suggesting maybe, but stating as fact) that Yeshua was raised - resurrected, not by the power of the Holy Spirit or God, but by Moses and Elijah. That is not scriptural and certainly against what christians and messianics believe. Therefore, you were violating CF rules in making these statements.
This was just one of the complaints that arose. There were others, including the fact that even after being requested to refrain, you ignored the request and continued.
It is not posters as individuals that get censored, it's what is posted. The message must conform to the beliefs of the specific forum. It is not just here in Messianic Judaism, it's site-wide rules with the exception of Unorthodox Theology. There you are allowed to make such statements.
Anyone is welcome here in MJ as long as CF/MJ guidelines are followed.


Just as an aside, just because one flies the proper icon does not give license to teach/debate within the forum against its main tenets. You must still stay within CF rules and regulations even while flying the scroll icon here.

ou mean with the except of your post here, no one is allowed to teach or debate?

My question remains the same, why would Holy Scripture in the Old Testament correspond one-to-one with what Christ did in the gospels, and in some cases, almost word for word?

Since when I answer your charges here, you will call it the forbidden teaching, when you complain that I see Jesus as the son-of-man, crucified but resurrected by Elijah who had returmed to Moss in the transfiguration, being the Christ and son-of-God,... I can not say so nor defend what I realy said.

This OP complains of this.

You await to claim it is I who am teaching, and thenyou just put words in my mouth challenging me to respond so I can be "crucified."

I refuse to teach yopu what I am saying.
I remain silent on that.

I merely posted 24 verse from the OT and compared them to 24 verse in the New Testament.
How do you answer to that?

 

[cupid dave]

Hi,

I was just making a general observation about what it is like in virtually every place I have visited on these Boards...it seems many people have an expectancy of being attacked or their theology challenged to such a degree it is a bit unpleasant sometimes.

The two imstances you quote are ones that everybody should be able to recognise and deal with quickly should they come up...especially those that serve to maintain unity and fellowship amongst us and have the irksome duty of weeding out the trouble-makers.

So I am not shouting or whispering 'foul'...just discussing.




I can see how that must be frustrating.



There is a big difference between someone who does this stuff, and others who in all innocence get tarred with the same brush merely because people are suspicious and distrusting.

I would also say there is a difference between being pro-active and verging on paranoia, and at times IMO, it seems the distinction is blurred..it really doesn't make for good fellowship as one is put on the back foot and forced to justify ones intentions the whole time.





Yep, I guess if I had been in the thick of it I might see things slightly differently...but I am making an observation that is across the Boards and is not the monopoly of this forum.



As I said...I was here, but not active, and I am sorry for you guys that things got to such a state.

B'rachot v'shalom l'cha. Zazal

You seem very rational and sane with the confidence of your own convictions strong enough root so as not to fear mere words that might be posted respectfully which present different akes.

But the majority of the people in the religious community see their denominational association the way the 20th century saw Nationalism, i.e.; "My country right or wrong."

Part of this has always been fueled by the teachings that we each must induce new members into the body of christ, ignoring that there are many different organizations today competing with one another to so do.
What has bcome the practice is to teach our denomination beliefs and bible interpretations while carefully denigrating what we call the misconceptions of Catholicism or Baptist, or whatever is not our chruch.

Jesus said blaspheme woukd be forgiven now, and I beleive that was so we would not charge one another with it as a toolof a majority of the moment who could then lynch offender after holding their Kangeroo court.

I also point out that the reason Christ was tried and crucified was exactly in protest to his own difference with the accepted Party Line of that day.

When people say they believe that "if Jesus came back today, he'd still get killed," that is what they mean.

 

[cupid dave]

And in Ac 11:26?



In what world is "teaching" or "correcting" misinformation a bad thing?

So why did God appoint teachers for the body of Christ (1Co 12:28; Ac 13:1; Ro 12:6-7; Eph 4:11)?

The remedy for being taught or corrected is not to traffic in inaccurary when reporting on the Word of God written.

Just sayin'.

Yedida says "teaching" or "correcting" misinformation a bad thing" when "problems arise because one begins to post against the beliefs of any particular faith group.""


Yedida:
"One is allowed to present similarities and question them. One is even allowed to bring up what appears to be contradictions and/or errors and question them. That's not a problem.
The problems arise when one begins to post against the beliefs of any particular faith group."



The catch 22 seems to be thhat a teacher must only teach what the students already know and never correct them. But since everyone is usually a know-it-all, and already has "beliefs of a particular faith group" the effect of his rule is not to talk to them even in a forum unless you agree with them.

 

[Zeek]

Lol...I don't know about the 'sane and rational' tag...I feel like copying that and framing it on my wall. I struggle along with many other Believers in somehow trying to throw off much of what I have been taught in the past, and struggle to get past traditional differences, and even some theological differences if they are not insurmountable.

I find that in engaging people from different traditions it helps rid me of some of my misconceptions, hypocisy and prejudices if I remain open to seeing G-d at work in my fellow man and companions in faith and am open to seeing further change wrought in myself as I acknowledge my weaknesses. Sometimes it is not easy because of the fear of compromise...but hopefully one learns to better discern what is worth fighting for and what is best left alone.

Yes I agree there is a great deal of denigrating those from different traditions...I guess it is a pride thing...or we focus on some bad aspects of their theology to bolster what we see as our better insight...there has to be some sort of balance without compromising our understanding of Scripture but loving our brethren with a love that is unfeigned...

Kind regards. Zazal

 

[ChavaK]

I realize this comment was for Chavak but was somewhat surprised to see this statement in a Messianic forum.

Is this a standard belief among Messianics that the Jews are "yet" to discover their savior and messiah in the person of Jesus/Yeshua?

I wasn't surprised to see it, and I figured it is standard belief amongst Messianics that someday we will recognize their savior as the messiah.

 

[Marie Lynn]

I wasn't surprised to see it, and I figured it is standard belief amongst Messianics that someday we will recognize their savior as the messiah.

Well I noticed my question wasn't answered, but found it to be (to say the least) very assuming. Perhaps they (Christians, Messianics) one day will recognize that the Jews do not see Jesus/Yeshua as their savior/messiah and maybe they will realize that although the Jewish people are looking for a messiah it is not Jesus/Yeshua that they are looking for because he is not the one prophesied about according to the Tanach. Perhaps they might modify their beliefs on who the messiah could be.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I wasn't surprised to see it, and I figured it is standard belief amongst Messianics that someday we will recognize their savior as the messiah.

Personally, I couldn't care less if you do or don't.

Being a good person is enough in my book, and Paul's too.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

[visionary]

Well I noticed my question wasn't answered, but found it to be (to say the least) very assuming. Perhaps they (Christians, Messianics) one day will recognize that the Jews do not see Jesus/Yeshua as their savior/messiah and maybe they will realize that although the Jewish people are looking for a messiah it is not Jesus/Yeshua that they are looking for because he is not the one prophesied about according to the Tanach. Perhaps they might modify their beliefs on who the messiah could be.

You will just have to meet Him to understand that He is it...

 

[Marie Lynn]

You will just have to meet Him to understand that He is it...

Already have and decided he was not the savior and messiah, the same can be said for the Jewish people who also do not believe that he is their messiah. All I am saying is that it should not be something that is assumed or expected to be understood by all.

 

[yedida]

ou mean with the except of your post here, no one is allowed to teach or debate?

My question remains the same, why would Holy Scripture in the Old Testament correspond one-to-one with what Christ did in the gospels, and in some cases, almost word for word?

Since when I answer your charges here, you will call it the forbidden teaching, when you complain that I see Jesus as the son-of-man, crucified but resurrected by Elijah who had returmed to Moss in the transfiguration, being the Christ and son-of-God,... I can not say so nor defend what I realy said.

This OP complains of this.

You await to claim it is I who am teaching, and thenyou just put words in my mouth challenging me to respond so I can be "crucified."

I refuse to teach yopu what I am saying.
I remain silent on that.

I merely posted 24 verse from the OT and compared them to 24 verse in the New Testament.
How do you answer to that?

I said as far as I'm concerned it's quite okay to bring up differences and similarities and work through them. There's no problem there. The problem lies in stating these as absolute facts. If you want to take offense at that, I can't help it. (And I was referring to your original postings and letting you know that you were not censored by "self-righteous" mods/posters.) Do what you want with that, I'll not argue with you over it any further.

 

[yedida]

Personally, I couldn't care less if you do or don't.

Being a good person is enough in my book, and Paul's too.

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

I'm glad I'm not alone in that thought!!

Deu 6:25 It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to obey all these mitzvot before Adonai our God, just as he ordered us to do.' "

 

[visionary]

Already have and decided he was not the savior and messiah, the same can be said for the Jewish people who also do not believe that he is their messiah. All I am saying is that it should not be something that is assumed or expected to be understood by all.

He is still all that He says He is.. and every knee will bow.. including yours one day.

 

[Huram Abi]

From the CF Forum Rules/Terms of Service:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts

Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.
​

__________________

You might want to check Cupid Dave, then, as well, who only has the icon so he can prosyletize his own theology, in which he is the messiah.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7644183-40/#post60236277

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596210/#post58656755


Warning: not an MJ.

 

[janwoG]

Due to our basic interest in Judaism, I wonder if we couldn’t organize a subforum “Exploring Judaism”, not submitted to the Nicene Creed. However, under sticky we should prevent that antimissionaries for example and antinomians start a polemic about the basic tenets of the Messianic Faith. The Unorthodox theology does not address our needs because it treats a lot of subjects which are of no concern to us.