Non denominational?

[friend of]

I'm non-denom because Job 1:21

 

[the old scribe]

This was meant to be a nice thread about wondering why non demoninationals call themself so. My point is I think we all have it wrong. Instead it seems to be about debating scripture? I think everyone should read and get to know there bible and learn from others a little but ask God for clarfication. Reading the Bible you get to know it. I would rather get to know the person and how Christ is working their life rather than an exact run down of their beliefs and theoligies. Of course if someone saw an error in my interpretation of scripture I would welcome their opinion. If someone saw me acting wrong I would appreciate that too.

Not all of us are called to be teachers. I hope I'm not as thats a lot of responsibility.

There are two categories of non denominational congregations.

Some fully independent congregations call themselves non denominational in that the congregation has no affiliation with other congregations. Sometimes these congregations label themselves as a Bible Church and sometimes they are disenfranchised congregations from some denomination. It has been popular for newly formed congregations to use the label non denominational to avoid the issues of being identified from the outside with specific doctrine except to claim they are Bible based.

The second category of the non denominational congregations also originally used the label Bible Church. This group is actual a denomination supporting the seminaries founded to teach premillennial dispensationalism (as in Dallas Theological Seminary) and in conjunction with other of their denomination in the sending missionaries.

Regularly, in the North Texas area the Dallas Theological students have joined traditional mainline denominations to teach a doctrine contrary to that of the congregation. When this practice was allowed it often resulted in the congregation splitting and the financial failure of the existing congregation. Presbyterians were especially targeted. Southern Baptist eventually have unofficially become premillennial dispensationalist. There was a time when mainline Protestant seminaries would not hire professors associated with or degereed from premillennial dispensationalist seminaries.

Over the decades other denominations have become associated with these premillennial dispensationalist seminaries in their ideology. The 1500 Calvary Chapel churches in the USA are an example. Calvary Chapel Churches claim to be non denominational. Chuck Smith of the first Calvary Chapel was ordained by the Assemblies of God. His congregation is where the Jesus Movement started.

Most often, non denominational refers to an association to premillennial dispensationalist seminaries in that the graduates become the pastors.

 

[the old scribe]

Denominations:
Sanctification produces fruit.
All who produce fruit will love one another.
All who do not produce fruit will love their religion or denomination
and take pride in their choice.

 

[Sam91]

I haven't experienced much doctrine in Church. I have recently changed from Pentecostal to Baptist and I am glad to have sermons based on the Bible than soundbites.
I have found most sermons to be relevant to how we are to live. I just attended quite a few Churches due to moving around a lot and seen differences in each. I love to hear of work in the community but I feel that we should all be encouraged to do more.

I was just interested why people were non denominational. I follow the Bible and what God reveals first and foremost. It's where doctrine comes in you get problems. Like OSAS. I asked my old Church what they thought after hearing Charles Stanley saying you can't lose your salvation. I disagree there up to a point. I can see where people can draw that from but I see many a scripture warning otherwise. Rather than get bogged down and wondering about my security I prefer to just trust that God will lead me right and approach that throne like a child. You see I could get entangled trying to gain knowledge about many other finer points but in the meantime lose track of God and what the Holy Spirit has to teach in His word that God wants me to know which would correct my walk with him. I lead a busy life and my brain is full of appointments, chores, Bible etc. So for me to be debating could lead me out the Lord's will for me. We're not all called to be teachers I am not. I have an inquisitive mind. Once I start researching something I find ithard to stop. I would be distracted from the Lord in seeking the doctrine

Maybe I should have just posed the question without my view point God bless you brother, I understand your speaking from an intellectual, scholar view.

 

[the old scribe]

I haven't experienced much doctrine in Church. I have recently changed from Pentecostal to Baptist and I am glad to have sermons based on the Bible than soundbites.
I have found most sermons to be relevant to how we are to live. I just attended quite a few Churches due to moving around a lot and seen differences in each. I love to hear of work in the community but I feel that we should all be encouraged to do more.

I was just interested why people were non denominational. I follow the Bible and what God reveals first and foremost. It's where doctrine comes in you get problems. Like OSAS. I asked my old Church what they thought after hearing Charles Stanley saying you can't lose your salvation. I disagree there up to a point. I can see where people can draw that from but I see many a scripture warning otherwise. Rather than get bogged down and wondering about my security I prefer to just trust that God will lead me right and approach that throne like a child. You see I could get entangled trying to gain knowledge about many other finer points but in the meantime lose track of God and what the Holy Spirit has to teach in His word that God wants me to know which would correct my walk with him. I lead a busy life and my brain is full of appointments, chores, Bible etc. So for me to be debating could lead me out the Lord's will for me. We're not all called to be teachers I am not. I have an inquisitive mind. Once I start researching something I find ithard to stop. I would be distracted from the Lord in seeking the doctrine

Maybe I should have just posed the question without my view point God bless you brother, I understand your speaking from an intellectual, scholar view.

A couple of things. Your move from Pentecostal to Baptist will prove a healthy one spiritually - depending on your congregation. Historically, Baptist have very few doctrines the members of the congregation must agree upon. This openness falls under a doctrine called the priesthood of the believer. Although Charles Stanley is a dynamic speaker and a Southern Baptist, if you knew what he is you would not listen to him. The point TaylorSexton made several times about the relationship of doctrine and practice applies here.

Identifying with a particular congregation ought to carry with it the responsibility of embracing the doctrines. This leads to a healthy and productive fellowship.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Growing up we went to many churches. Evangelical, presbyterian, charasmatic....etc. None of them seem to fit right because while they were all about the bible, they also has "side rules" as I call them. Rules that were not super important and were denomination specific. For example the one church taught you are only saved if you speak tounges and jump around during worship. Another church said you had to attend church every sunday or else you would be kicked out. Another had SUPER strict codes on what to wear in and out of church. The list goes on and on.

But about 15 years ago went to a non-denom church and we really loved it. We left because of my mother at the time being crabby. After that we switched a few more times. We went to two non-denom churches in the past decade. One was non-denom but was part of a bigger group that was pentecostal, so we left it. The next church was also non-denom, but after a year of being there they joined a "baptist" group of churches and claimed nothing would change. Despite the fact lots of things changed. We left that church as did like 60% of the members.

BTW not saying theres anything wrong with those denominations. Just pointing out some non-denom do have a denom really. Our current church is the one from 15 years ago which is a true non-denom. We are not tied into any other churches that have a denom. We simply go by the bible. No lists of rules to fit a certain denomination. I love it! We focus on God and the bible. Not rules or regulations and whatever.

I find a legit non-denom church seems to be the closest to what the bible talks about. Of course this doesn't mean they are flawless. A new pastor may teach incorrect things or maybe a new pastor will bring in beliefs from a denom church he used to be part of. But for me this is the only kind of church I'd go to. Denom churchs just seem to see other denominations as a "enemy" of sorts which then leads to people judging each other.

 

[Sam91]

There are two categories of non denominational congregations.

Some fully independent congregations call themselves non denominational in that the congregation has no affiliation with other congregations. Sometimes these congregations label themselves as a Bible Church and sometimes they are disenfranchised congregations from some denomination. It has been popular for newly formed congregations to use the label non denominational to avoid the issues of being identified from the outside with specific doctrine except to claim they are Bible based.

The second category of the non denominational congregations also originally used the label Bible Church. This group is actual a denomination supporting the seminaries founded to teach premillennial dispensationalism (as in Dallas Theological Seminary) and in conjunction with other of their denomination in the sending missionaries.

Regularly, in the North Texas area the Dallas Theological students have joined traditional mainline denominations to teach a doctrine contrary to that of the congregation. When this practice was allowed it often resulted in the congregation splitting and the financial failure of the existing congregation. Presbyterians were especially targeted. Southern Baptist eventually have unofficially become premillennial dispensationalist. There was a time when mainline Protestant seminaries would not hire professors associated with or degereed from premillennial dispensationalist seminaries.

Over the decades other denominations have become associated with these premillennial dispensationalist seminaries in their ideology. The 1500 Calvary Chapel churches in the USA are an example. Calvary Chapel Churches claim to be non denominational. Chuck Smith of the first Calvary Chapel was ordained by the Assemblies of God. His congregation is where the Jesus Movement started.

Most often, non denominational refers to an association to premillennial dispensationalist seminaries in that the graduates become the pastors.

Thank you for that. I might be better just stating I belong to the denomiation of the church I attend then? I just have avoided seeing myself as a denomination as I am also part of the body of the rest of the Children of God, if the love God.

If u can briefly tell me what premillenial dispensation means I would be grateful.

 

[Sam91]

A couple of things. Your move from Pentecostal to Baptist will prove a healthy one spiritually - depending on your congregation. Historically, Baptist have very few doctrines the members of the congregation must agree upon. This openness falls under a doctrine called the priesthood of the believer. Although Charles Stanley is a dynamic speaker and a Southern Baptist, if you knew what he is you would not listen to him.

He has helped with understanding a little. I would rather not know what he is. I don't agree with everything he says but God has used him to teach me things in time to practise them and to focus on the Lord theough the tough times.

 

[TaylorSexton]

Identifying with a particular congregation ought to carry with it the responsibility of embracing the doctrines. This leads to a healthy and productive fellowship.

 

[Sam91]

Growing up we went to many churches. Evangelical, presbyterian, charasmatic....etc. None of them seem to fit right because while they were all about the bible, they also has "side rules" as I call them. Rules that were not super important and were denomination specific. For example the one church taught you are only saved if you speak tounges and jump around during worship. Another church said you had to attend church every sunday or else you would be kicked out. Another had SUPER strict codes on what to wear in and out of church. The list goes on and on.

But about 15 years ago went to a non-denom church and we really loved it. We left because of my mother at the time being crabby. After that we switched a few more times. We went to two non-denom churches in the past decade. One was non-denom but was part of a bigger group that was pentecostal, so we left it. The next church was also non-denom, but after a year of being there they joined a "baptist" group of churches and claimed nothing would change. Despite the fact lots of things changed. We left that church as did like 60% of the members.

BTW not saying theres anything wrong with those denominations. Just pointing out some non-denom do have a denom really. Our current church is the one from 15 years ago which is a true non-denom. We are not tied into any other churches that have a denom. We simply go by the bible. No lists of rules to fit a certain denomination. I love it! We focus on God and the bible. Not rules or regulations and whatever.

I find a legit non-denom church seems to be the closest to what the bible talks about. Of course this doesn't mean they are flawless. A new pastor may teach incorrect things or maybe a new pastor will bring in beliefs from a denom church he used to be part of. But for me this is the only kind of church I'd go to. Denom churchs just seem to see other denominations as a "enemy" of sorts which then leads to people judging each other.

Thank you for sharing your experience. This is all proving to be quite useful in rounding my view on what non demoniational is seen to be.

 

[the old scribe]

Thank you for that. I might be better just stating I belong to the denomiation of the church I attend then? I just have avoided seeing myself as a denomination as I am also part of the body of the rest of the Children of God, if the love God.

If u can briefly tell me what premillenial dispensation means I would be grateful.

The very first idea that the Church and Israel, Israel including all Jews, were under different dispensations arrived with a member of the Plymouth Brethren, John Nelson Darby, about 1830. Starting from a single source this idea has come to dominate evangelical Christianity in America and in many other countries, also. Because of the dominance of this idea among American evangelicals the question begs to be asked, “Is this relative new idea an appropriate time inspired illumination of divine revelation or just a construct from biblical ignorance?”

John Nelson Darby’s idea that Israel and all Jews remained under a separate dispensation from non Jewish Christians is termed dispensationalism.
Dispensations refer to various relationships between the LORD and man.

Premillennialism has to do with a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth between the rapture and the second coming.

Premillennialism Dispensationalism: The Major Events

Forming of the modern State of Israel

Rapture of the Church

Seven years of the Great Tribulation
Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel for the first three years at which time the Temple has been rebuilt or will be rebuilt.

Antichrist persecutes Israel for the next three yearsReturn of Christ with the Church

The millennial reign of Christ on planet Earth from King David’s throne in Jerusalem
At the end of the thousand years Satan is released
Satan assembles the nations to war against Israel and Jerusalem
Fire comes down from heaven and destroys the armies gathered by Satan
Satan is thrown into the lake of fire
New heavens and new planet Earth

 

[Anguspure]

Was on another thread about denominations and was going to post what I wrote below but realised it would be off topic so guess I'm starting a thread.
Is anyone else non-denominational but attending a denominational church? What makes you so?

I think all denominations probably have it wrong. I don't see any of us living the life of the early church. I think we are all of the world too much and we should all gear ourselves towards becoming more active in the community, spreading the gospel, helping each other more and actually serving. Those who can. Those who can't should be doing what they can... prayer is an important ministry too.

I think its time we should all be measuring ourselves against scripture and walking the way Jesus said. The money we have been given from God for example, we should start thinking how we can put it to God's service instead of our own. This is what I feel is important, not denominations, not debating creation etc.

I'm not there yet but making changes to go in that direction. I think as soon as I have means to be child free sometimes I plan to use it immediately to get into some way of service.

Didn't Jesus foretell these things would happen?
Then Jesus asked, “What is the kingdom of God like? What shall I compare it to? It is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds perched in its branches.”

 

[Sam91]

The very first idea that the Church and Israel, Israel including all Jews, were under different dispensations arrived with a member of the Plymouth Brethren, John Nelson Darby, about 1830. Starting from a single source this idea has come to dominate evangelical Christianity in America and in many other countries, also. Because of the dominance of this idea among American evangelicals the question begs to be asked, “Is this relative new idea an appropriate time inspired illumination of divine revelation or just a construct from biblical ignorance?”

John Nelson Darby’s idea that Israel and all Jews remained under a separate dispensation from non Jewish Christians is termed dispensationalism.
Dispensations refer to various relationships between the LORD and man.

Premillennialism has to do with a 1000 year reign of Christ on earth between the rapture and the second coming.

Premillennialism Dispensationalism: The Major Events

Forming of the modern State of Israel

Rapture of the Church

Seven years of the Great Tribulation
Antichrist makes a covenant with Israel for the first three years at which time the Temple has been rebuilt or will be rebuilt.

Antichrist persecutes Israel for the next three yearsReturn of Christ with the Church

The millennial reign of Christ on planet Earth from King David’s throne in Jerusalem
At the end of the thousand years Satan is released
Satan assembles the nations to war against Israel and Jerusalem
Fire comes down from heaven and destroys the armies gathered by Satan
Satan is thrown into the lake of fire
New heavens and new planet Earth

Thank you very much, for going to that effort, it is appreciated

Now that would take a lot of study to understand fully and a lot of time which I just don't have. Beginning to understand why these theories get shortened to a title.

 

[frienden thalord]

The problem in the churches today is they walk and teach false doctrine.
I don't care how they started out , the churches are in outright dire straits.
the cure is so simple. Number one correction would be reading Sound doctrine. which is long gone in most churches.
Doctrine is used for correction , for instruction in righteousness .
that the man of GOD may be thoroughly furnished unto ALL good works.
number one thing today , that would turn the churches upside down. if the men would preach biblical sound doctrine.
sure most might flee out the doors, but at least the ones who desired to serve GOD and not self
would be fed and mature and work as one to increase , edify the body.
number one thing , preach sound doctrine.
and set the pattern in all things done by the pattern set by the Apostles
who followed the pattern set by Christ . Learn His sayings. all of them. the more we feed on truth
the more we are built up in him with a good foundation by which to test all things against.
It is such a simple solution. But getting men to submit to God, to return to Only biblical doctrine
and not self exalted and world lustfillled doctrines, they flat out refuse.
Flat out.
A teacher that loves him self wont hear correction.
a teacher that loves God, if he is in error.....oh he will hear and repent.
Got severe bad news, every church I researched had some error in its beginning.
CEPT the Anabaptist. though , their were some seriously bad seeds in that group too, like munster.
However with my head in my hands , even many Anabaptist churches have fallen from their first state.
Its a madhouse out their , the churches are in shambles
from the least sin to the greatest sin , most churches have allowed in.
its just the signs of the times.
Were we not warned and has it not been said a great falling away ,
wait till we see what is about to hit the churches strong........the top of all evil
INTERFAITH, world peace etc move. what a lie of satan
but man it will lead to so many true christains being killed in the name of love and world peace.
and nothing will stop this. Its just the end of days , and all that was written is being fulfilled
and so few can see . I love us all, I will keep reminding of the pure and holy ways of the real grace , the real
gospel and the one true Christ so long as I have breath......amen.

 

[the old scribe]

He has helped with understanding a little. I would rather not know what he is. I don't agree with everything he says but God has used him to teach me things in time to practise them and to focus on the Lord theough the tough times.

If we had to wait to hear from only perfect people we would never hear. Every believer should remind themselves regularly that we are all just forgiven sinners. However, it is comforting to believe the teacher is honest and sincere. Accordingly, may I recommend a site to you. There are about 1200 lectures - all free to download. No record of your visit is kept. The teacher is steve gregg. He has taught for about forty years without charging for what he does. He lives solely by faith. He was raised a Southern Baptist, joined the Jesus Movement as a teenager at Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel, became part of the Charismatic church, and has grown from there into an actual biblical based teaching. You can also find him on youtube.
<www.thenarrowpath.com>

 

[Sam91]

If we had to wait to hear from only perfect people we would never hear. Every believer should remind themselves regularly that we are all just forgiven sinners. However, it is comforting to believe the teacher is honest and sincere. Accordingly, may I recommend a site to you. There are about 1200 lectures - all free to download. No record of your visit is kept. The teacher is steve gregg. He has taught for about forty years without charging for what he does. He lives solely by faith. He was raised a Southern Baptist, joined the Jesus Movement as a teenager at Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel, became part of the Charismatic church, and has grown from there into an actual biblical based teaching. You can also find him on youtube.
<www.thenarrowpath.com>

Thank you for that. I have been thinking it might be time to stop listening to Stanley while cleaning, I've been listening to audiobible instead actually. I'm finding his sermons repetitive now as its the same few themes over and over and its not drawing much on new verses of the Bible anymore. I tend to reflect on the verses and read the surrounding scripture.

I hope to make use of that link.

 

[the old scribe]

Thank you for that. I have been thinking it might be time to stop listening to Stanley while cleaning, I've been listening to audiobible instead actually. I'm finding his sermons repetitive now as its the same few themes over and over and its not drawing much on new verses of the Bible anymore. I tend to reflect on the verses and read the surrounding scripture.

I hope to make use of that link.

The Lord's blessing Sam91, you are why I bother to post because you bless me.

 

[Sam91]

The Lord's blessing Sam91, you are why I bother to post because you bless me.

I think you may have blessed me. I had a quick look and I like the way there seems to be sections dedicated to each part of the bible. That might go hand in hand with what I am reading and can listen to his teachings after while I am busy.

Seems a good link. Thank you.

Good night too, it's late in the UK

 

[AlexDTX]

Was on another thread about denominations and was going to post what I wrote below but realised it would be off topic so guess I'm starting a thread.
Is anyone else non-denominational but attending a denominational church? What makes you so?

I think all denominations probably have it wrong. I don't see any of us living the life of the early church. I think we are all of the world too much and we should all gear ourselves towards becoming more active in the community, spreading the gospel, helping each other more and actually serving. Those who can. Those who can't should be doing what they can... prayer is an important ministry too.

I think its time we should all be measuring ourselves against scripture and walking the way Jesus said. The money we have been given from God for example, we should start thinking how we can put it to God's service instead of our own. This is what I feel is important, not denominations, not debating creation etc.

I'm not there yet but making changes to go in that direction. I think as soon as I have means to be child free sometimes I plan to use it immediately to get into some way of service.

The Church is not a denomination but an organism. Denominations are man made constructs, not divine. God does not see organizations, but the organism of Christ. He sees people and geography. The New Testament calls people by their location, not doctrine. It is the church of Galatia, Corinth, Rome, etc.

 

[Halbhh]

You do know that the early Church debated fiercely and near constantly about doctrine, right? Doctrine matters, because doctrine is the foundation of proper practice. The Apostles understood and taught this; their letters almost universally begin with doctrine and move into practice, because the former is the foundation of the latter. There is no such thing as right doctrine without right practice, and there is no such thing as right practice without right doctrine; they are an inseparable entity.

I understand the frustrations we have about denominationalism; believe me, I get it. We split over trivial and tertiary matters far too often. However, many of the denominations we have exist precisely because of irreconcilable gospel issues. For example, the split between Rome and Protestantism is a breach that cannot be repaired without a serious examination of doctrine (which has been going on for centuries), because the two entities preach entirely different gospels.

Too often I fear these complaints drift too far into the "doctrine vs. practice" realm. If we are going to be biblical, we need to be concerned about doctrine and practice, not one or the other. As I said before, you cannot have one without having both contemporaneously.

Informal usage. Popular usage. It may help clear up confusion to know that to most people that have *not* been in a seminary or other training classes, that many use a word like 'doctrine' to refer not at all to essential teachings from Christ or Peter, but instead of that something much more narrow and derived and in dispute. So, even though you may think "Nicene Creed" for example as doctrine, they are *not* thinking of Nicene Creed as "doctrine" but instead they would call the Creeds their "creed" or their "faith" or their "belief", and not use the word "doctrine" for that ever, but only use the word "doctrine" to mean something much less key and clear, like the doctrine of "double predestination" or other such highly interpretive ideas that some would believe religiously and perhaps give vastly more weight to than most believers feel is proportional, since they are mere viewpoints really (sure you can claim differently), but not the clear teachings of Christ.

So, the word "doctrine" has become in modern America ill defined. And you can't presume you know what someone means when they say it necessarily. To me, ideas about predestination are of very little importance, as they are mere interpretations, even speculations (regardless of if the person would say so), but the commands of Christ are of overwhelming importance, because He said them.

So, like most people, when I say "doctrine" I never mean anything in the Creeds. I never mean any directly quoted statement from John or Peter or James or Paul or our Lord. (Even though one can of course use doctrine in such a way, especially for stuff in the epistles; I simply mean like many people, I'm not using the word that way.)

I only use "doctrine" to refer to the ideas people have come up with to divide themselves from others, actually.