Noah's Ark

[Obliquinaut]

Theistic evolutionists believe in God and evolution at the same time.

So what is it they are overlooking that keeps them (and agnostics) from becoming atheists?

(Please answer this. And I want to know what they are overlooking ... not what they are claiming to see that others don't.)

They aren't overlooking anything. They are adding in items. This is the nature of religion.

In science, ultimately you want to find the most reasonable exaplanatory variables that explain as much of the variability in the data as is possible.

If I create a statistical model which explains the data using 5 variables but then I add in another variable that isn't necessary but doesn't hurt the overall explanation then I'm doing "religion".

So they aren't overlooking anything. They are adding in a variable to explain the data that is unnecessary.

This is not to say that we ever really achieve 100% perfect modeling of the system and generate every single variable we need, but by the same token it also doesn't mean we can simply add in variables as we feel. Each variable has to do something to explain the variance in the data.

 

[AV1611VET]

Why would God allow geology to exist if it leads so many people astray?

So they could hunt for oil ... but most use their God-given talents against the Bible.

Nimrod did the same thing.

He was a mighty hunter before the LORD, but he used his talents to build an empire so evil, Satan will revive it during the Tribulation.

And to date, that empire's magnum opus is the Epic of Gilgamesh, containing a mockery of the Flood.

 

[AV1611VET]

They aren't overlooking anything. They are adding in items. This is the nature of religion.

So agnostics are religious?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

OK, just for a sec here the volume of a "shell" of water on a sphere that is 8000' feet deep is calculable:

V=4/3*pi*(r^3-(r-t)^3) where r=radius of earth (20903520 feet) and t=thickness of water layer (8000ft)

That means you are moving 43,911,000,000,000,000,000 cubic feet of water in 150 days and you think that's going to be kind of mild? (someone please double check my math).

The flood wasn't a local tsunami but a global event. The water would have been quite spread out. There is no geographic feature that would have caused the flood to run down a single narrow channel. It came in slowly from all over the place.

 

[Jimmy D]

Theistic evolutionists believe in God and evolution at the same time.

So what is it they are overlooking that keeps them (and agnostics) from becoming atheists?

(Please answer this. And I want to know what they are overlooking ... not what they are claiming to see that others don't.)

What makes you think that they overlook anything?

 

[Obliquinaut]

So they could hunt for oil ... but most use their God-given talents against the Bible.

More error. Oil "hunting" utilizes old earth and non-Noachian Flood type geology. The Flood of Noah was abandoned as a geologic concept back in the 18th century as was the idea of a "young earth".

 

[Obliquinaut]

The flood wasn't a local tsunami but a global event. The water would have been quite spread out. There is no geographic feature that would have caused the flood to run down a single narrow channel. It came in slowly from all over the place.

Unless you gently lay the water down ON TOP of the planet from outside in a single gentle layer you can't really raise the sea level and NOT channel the water through various areas.

But again, you are moving 4X10^19 cubic feet of water up onto land from the ocean using your transgressive sequence model which means it isn't being laid down gently from above in one single soft layer.

 

[Obliquinaut]

So agnostics are religious?

Agnosticism is, technically speaking, an epistemological position not a religious belief one way or the other. As I understand Huxley's original intent it was that the answer cannot be known.

What I was referring to was your use of theistic evolutionists who clearly believe in a god of some sort (hence the theistic) which is the variable with no additional explanatory power in the model.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Something tells me that since Subduction Zone has that particular handle here on the forums that hydrology is a topic they are rather familiar with. While it may not be a core class in a geology degree it is built into almost every sed-strat class and one pretty much would have to live with the topic.

Perhaps you'd like to explain the Hjulstrom Diagram to us!



Grass is not a universal adhesive. There are still loose sediments everywhere.



Couple problems here:

1) there would be massive layers of what are called biocoenoces or life assemblages of dead animals. Animals that lived together but died in the same time frame. (Including the giant mat of super-grass you hypothesize)

2) It would only be insigificant if you moved 4.3X10^19 cubic feet of water away from the surface in 150 days if it was Miracle Water moving over Miracle Sediment. (Here's an experiment you can do at home: take a cup of water and pour it over a bare patch in your back yard and see if some sediments don't move. Again: refer to the Hjulstrom Diagram)



Are you familiar with what a clay mineral and clay sized grains are? Do you know how quickly they settle out? (Google Stokes Settling Velocity)



-sigh- OK so it appears I need to show you the Hjulstrom Diagram:

There would be little 'laminar' flow over the surface once the water was a few feet deep. The flow 'shear' line would be closer to the surface as air friction is negligible compared to water friction.

Do this test. Place some fine silt in your bathtub then fill it with water. Notice that the silt moves very little after the initial flow of incoming water, and only moves toward the drain when almost all of the water has drained away above it. This with no structure to slow the water movement as would be in the case of heavy grass.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

One should not conflate vertical movement of water with horizontal movement of water. In a flood the damage is done from the water moving horizontally. If one only measured its vertical motion one would find it to be very slow. The Flood may have averaged only a fraction of a foot an hour in vertical movement, but that could be easily many miles per hour of horizontal movement. The water does have to go somewhere.

Thank you for an excellent point. The slow vertically moving water would cause very little erosion. Most believe the flood was entirely 'freeflowing' water cascading down in torrents everywhere. The truth is the water was held back by the waters itself.

Using my bathtub example, when you pull the plug the sides of the tub don't collapse causing a violent rush of water everywhere. The water in the tub is restrained by the water in the drain pipe.

 

[AV1611VET]

More error.

Says who?

Oil "hunting" utilizes old earth and non-Noachian Flood type geology.

I find that hard to believe.

Are you telling me that if God was to create a planet ex nihilo tomorrow containing oil, geologists couldn't find that oil?

The Flood of Noah was abandoned as a geologic concept back in the 18th century ...

I hear that all the time.

But if they were true scientists, why wouldn't they be looking with their updated equipment?

And even though I don't believe they'll find anything, they don't know they won't.

... as was the idea of a "young earth".

The earth is as old as it was the day God created it, plus 6020 years.

 

[AV1611VET]

Agnosticism is, technically speaking, an epistemological position not a religious belief one way or the other.

I stopped right here, chief.

Now you're starting to bother me.

For the second time, what are agnostics OVERLOOKING?

O ... VER ... LOO ... KING?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Without checking your math, 3 feet/hour is insanely fast for a flood.

Over level ground, yes.

 

[Obliquinaut]

I stopped right here, chief.

Now you're starting to bother me.

For the second time, what are agnostics OVERLOOKING?

O ... VER ... LOO ... KING?

-sigh- I answered your question in regards to the theistic evolutionists which you explicitly asked about.

Since agnostics don't necessarily mean a belief or disbelief in a God I cannot answer any question which pre-supposes their belief in God.

If I bother you then you need to read more philosophy and technical literature. (Or you need to better understand the question you asked, "Chief".)

 

[Obliquinaut]

Over level ground, yes.

Through canyons and valleys it's even crazier fast!

Here's an experiment you can try at home: Take a gallon of water and pour it out of a wide brim bucket, measure the speed of the water in volume/time.

Now pass the same volume of water through a narrow hose, measure the speed.

Et viola!

 

[Obliquinaut]

I find that hard to believe.

Well, considering that geologists kinda know how long it takes to create oil and how that oil is generated (in source rocks such as organic rich shales which are very tight and don't allow flow to happen very quickly AND they require a certain burial depth or temperature, I think you'd be surprised at how few petroleum geologists are young earthers.)

Are you telling me that if God was to create a planet ex nihilo tomorrow containing oil, geologists couldn't find that oil?I hear that all the time.

Why would God put all the evidence of oil taking a long time to form under very specific conditions (even going so far as to planting evidence of it currently in the process of formation in the source rocks) but then make it happen suddenly in a Young Earth Scenario?

But if they were true scientists, why wouldn't they be looking with their updated equipment?

What do you know about "true science"? I mean so far it seems you want to add all sorts of unnecessary variables to a system, so I'm curious what kind of science you do.

And even though I don't believe they'll find anything, they don't know they won't.The earth is as old as it was the day God created it, plus 6020 years.

-sigh-. OK God used a miracle and everything is a miracle and actually trying to "understand it" without invoking the miracle (which is unnecessary...I mean if God created it to actually "be" 4.5billion years old but he did it only 6020 years ago, then all is a potemkin village. We should just sit back and let God rain whatever it is we need down on us. Manna will accumulate for us) is unnecessary.

Scientists are wasting their time. Got it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Thank you for an excellent point. The slow vertically moving water would cause very little erosion. Most believe the flood was entirely 'freeflowing' water cascading down in torrents everywhere. The truth is the water was held back by the waters itself.

Using my bathtub example, when you pull the plug the sides of the tub don't collapse causing a violent rush of water everywhere. The water in the tub is restrained by the water in the drain pipe.

The water had to flow. Otherwise it would still be on the land. To get it off of the land you need to do some very high speed horizontal movement of it.

And that is just one of your problems. Where did the water come from? Where did it go to? The oceans were already full. And why can't you kidnap anyone off of the street when you need an organ transplant?

 

[Colter]

Theistic evolutionists believe in God and evolution at the same time.

So what is it they are overlooking that keeps them (and agnostics) from becoming atheists?

(Please answer this. And I want to know what they are overlooking ... not what they are claiming to see that others don't.)

*We believe God created life that evolved.

*We believe the Jews created the creation story and about themselves.

*Jews who became followers of Jesus justified their conversion by superimposing the theology of Judaism onto Jesus.

 

[Obliquinaut]

And why can't you kidnap anyone off of the street when you need an organ transplant?

There are laws. Trust me on that one.

 

[Colter]

Some hard headed, wayward hearts and minds still try to state that Noah's Ark never existed, and the Flood which destroyed the face of the Earth is a fairy tale.

Mockers and those who lead astray are about us. But they should have never come against what is plainly presented in the Bible.

Unbelief can make people do and say ignorant things.

If the Bible didn't exist, the same evidence for evolution would be easily accepted by the would be Bible believers. It's not that there is something wrong with the evidence for an old earth that has been host to many epochs of living history, the obstacles are the claims of the Bible.