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Noah's Ark

2PhiloVoid

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Sorry, I can't empathize with this problem.

I've never heard of such a concept. Where does this notion come from?

Do you want me to ask an A.I. for a quick answer? Or do you want me to instead draw up a list of bibliographical sources from my library?

The really, really short answer can be seen in the Webster's Dictionary, if you look:


I'm surprised they didn't cover this with you in a Catholic Catechism class. Surely they did.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Do you want me to ask an A.I. for a quick answer?
No need to quote idiots, artificial or otherwise.
Or do you want me to instead draw up a list of bibliographical sources from my library?

The really, really short answer can be seen in the Webster's Dictionary, if you look:

Well if webster says it it must be true...
I'm surprised they didn't cover this with you in a Catholic Catechism class. Surely they did.
Frankly I don't remember any discussion of prophecy. I suppose they told us about how Jesus was "foretold". Then again, I have little memory of any topics actually discussed. I have been told I was poorly "catechised" by certain Catholics here who'd like to deny that what I was taught and understood of it was "wrong". (The more I think of it the more I despise the whole notion of "doctrine".
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No need to quote idiots, artificial or otherwise.

Well if webster says it it must be true...

Frankly I don't remember any discussion of prophecy. I suppose they told us about how Jesus was "foretold". Then again, I have little memory of any topics actually discussed. I have been told I was poorly "catechised" by certain Catholics here who'd like to deny that what I was taught and understood of it was "wrong". (The more I think of it the more I despise the whole notion of "doctrine".

Well, okay then. I'm sure you got the gist of the content when you were Catholic, even if you didn't get into every jot and tittle of it.

No problem. Enjoy your day!
 
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Hans Blaster

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Please tell my your not a literalist, Hans.
O good grief, no. I do think we should take texts as their authors intended with the intended audience in mind. Genesis wasn't written for American non-believers from Europe. It was written for the people of Israel freed from captivity and recovering their own nation again. I have zero interest for my understanding of the *text* in what Christians of any age say about it theologically. It wasn't written for them. (If I want to understand YECers like the OPer, then I do need to understand "literalist" Christian theology of the 20th century.)
I didn't say that I believe in a world-wide flood seen from an ancient point of view, let alone a global one.
Perhaps my translation is unreliable, but it does refer repeatedly to al the life of the (earth/land) being killed everywhere and all of the (earth/land). It sounds like all of the (at least known, though "known land" is not used) is covered in water such that everything that dwells on the land dies (or at least all of the animals do.)
However, this doesn't mean that there were no significant floods that took place in the Ancient Near East anywhere from 4 to 7 thousand years ago that might have left a trace in the memory of ancient near eastern or middle eastern people.
Sure, but trying to trace one of them to the origin of the story is a fruitless effort as they would have likely been before the invention of writing.
 
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AV1611VET

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It didn't.

Either that, or it did.

What prophesy is in chapters 1-11 of Genesis? I don't recall any.

To name a few:

1. The virgin birth of Christ.

2. What is generally alluded to as "Manifest Destiny".

3. The Sixteen Grandsons of Noah

4. Never a worldwide flood will occur.

5. Despite what science thinks, the earth will not be destroyed by mankind or anything from space.

6. Institution of the death penalty.

7. The idea of a purer gene pool.
 
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AV1611VET

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(If I want to understand YECers like the OPer ...)

Keep making that mistake.

It reinforces your [lack of] sincerity.

You talk big science, but when it comes to other things, you're a fish out of water.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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O good grief, no. I do think we should take texts as their authors intended with the intended audience in mind. Genesis wasn't written for American non-believers from Europe. It was written for the people of Israel freed from captivity and recovering their own nation again. I have zero interest for my understanding of the *text* in what Christians of any age say about it theologically. It wasn't written for them. (If I want to understand YECers like the OPer, then I do need to understand "literalist" Christian theology of the 20th century.)

Perhaps my translation is unreliable, but it does refer repeatedly to al the life of the (earth/land) being killed everywhere and all of the (earth/land). It sounds like all of the (at least known, though "known land" is not used) is covered in water such that everything that dwells on the land dies (or at least all of the animals do.)

Sure, but trying to trace one of them to the origin of the story is a fruitless effort as they would have likely been before the invention of writing.

I don't think I'd say it's "fruitless." Like an archeologist, I'm more than willing to settle for finding and salvaging a few fruit seeds among Ancient Near Eastern trash.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I don't think I'd say it's "fruitless." Like an archeologist, I'm more than willing to settle for finding and salvaging a few fruit seeds among Ancient Near Eastern trash.
It seems highly unlikely that the original Mesopotamian version can be track to any particular large flood of the Euphrates.
 
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DamianWarS

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As a science and philosophy minded person, I care whether or not the Flood happened; I also care if what is being conveyed via religious voices form the past, or those today, is true. If it's not true, then there's a lot of explanation that needs to then be given by Jews and Christians as to why anyone should see the first eleven chapters of Genesis as having any prophetic import.

Obviously, both you and I seem to share at least that general notion, that these early narratives carry with them prophetic import, whether we know they represent true, historical events or less than historical narratives for the sake of theology.
First we need to establish the goal of these accounts before we make a decision about its literalness and does the goal still hold even if in a non-literal form? If the latter is true, the account may have historical inaccuracy, but if we establish that the historical accuracy was not a high ranking goal then perhaps approaching it historical may be misguided.

For example in the creation account light is spoken into darkness (before the sun is made) that triggers a transformation process that ends in rest. This is without question a redemptive metaphor and light being spoken into darkness is one of the most used metaphors in the Bible. Christ calls himself even the light of the world. So what's more important that the creation took 6 literal days or that God sends light to a broken unformed darkness? Redemptively speaking the literal event has little meaning but the redemptive metaphor is wholly useful and packed full with meaning even for today.

The flood to Moses, who is traditionally said to pen the account, is about 800 years. Modern academia shows much later dates. If the account survived through oral tradition which is the most likely scenario how much of the account resembles the factual detail and does it even matter?

The account comes on the heels of this odd remark about angels (sons of God) intermixing with humans (daughters of men) and created some sort of super race (nephilim) so we're definitely in myth territory. Then decision for the flood happens. It's also written in a chiastic structure which already shows us some massaging of the account was applied. The angels intermixing shows us how corrupted the earth has become and it serves as a pretext for the flood. The flood shows us a salvation event through one man/family to rescue the whole world which foreshadows Christ. It sets up an account to an ancient people group some 800 years after the fact to understand and grasp at more concrete levels then dealing with abstracts that is later unravailed to reveal its depth while using an account thst other cultures have mythologies about.

If the account's primary goal is to foreshadow Christ to show that through Christ all are saved then the account alone serves that propose. What we have in the Bible is no less than 800 years after the fact so it's literal impact is lost and meaningless to the context it is delivered to. There was no flood survivors, there was no living record of it happening or knowledge of someone who experienced it. History doesn't erase itself after x amount of time, and I get that, but because the biblical account shows little impact of before and after its difficult to fit it into a historical landscape or how things developed from its result.

For these reasons the literalness of the account has only anecdotal impact but nothing with any firm support. There are analogous accounts from other culturals so maybe some sort of flood event happened but I see the biblical account's redemptive goal to be superior to its literalness with the case of the flood. I don't take offence to the details as they are but a literal goal is not why I read it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It seems highly unlikely that the original Mesopotamian version can be track to any particular large flood of the Euphrates.

Correct, but it's not just unlikely, Hans. As per David MacDonald's article below (1988), it hasn't been tracked to any particular flood of the Euphrates, nor of the Tigris, nor of any other ancient but now defunct rivers that were in the region long ago.


And even if it was tracked specifically and exactly, it wouldn't make any difference to the central concern of believing the Biblical Flood Account.

Right? Or should it?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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First we need to establish the goal of these accounts before we make a decision about its literalness and does the goal still hold even if in a non-literal form? If the latter is true, the account may have historical inaccuracy, but if we establish that the historical accuracy was not a high ranking goal then perhaps approaching it historical is the wrong approach.

For example in the creation account light is spoken into darkness (before the sun is made) that triggers a transformation process that ends in rest. This is without question a redemptive metaphor and light being spoken into darkness is one of the most used metaphors in the Bible. Christ calls himself even the light of the world. So what's more important that the creation took 6 literal days or that God sends light to a broken informed darkness? Redemptively speaking the literal event have little meaning but the redemptive metaphor is wholly useful and packed full with meaning even for today.

The flood to Moses, who is traditionally said to pen the account, is about 800 years. Modern academia shows much later dates. If the account survived through oral tradition which is the most likely scenario how much of the account resembles the factual detail and does it even matter?

The account comes on the heels of this odd remark about angels (sons of God) intermixing with humans (daughters of men) and created some sort of super race (nephilim) so we're definitely in myth territory. Then decision for the flood happens. It's also written in a chiastic structure which already shows us some massaging of the account was applied. The angels intermixing shows us how corrupted the earth has become and it serves as a pretext for the flood. The flood shows us a salvation event through one man/family to rescue the whole world which foreshadows Christ. It sets up an account to an ancient people group some 800 years after the fact to understand and grasp at more concrete levels then dealing with abstracts that is later unravailed to reveal its depth while using an account thst other cultures have mythologies about.

If the account's primary goal is to foreshadow Christ to show that through Christ all are saved then the account alone serves that propose. What we have in the Bible is no less than 800 years after the fact so it's literal impact is lost and meaningless to the context it is delivered to. There was no flood survivors, there was no living record of it happening or knowledge of someone who experienced it. History doesn't erase itself after x amount of time, and I get that, but because the biblical account shows little impact of before and after its difficult to fit it into a historical landscape or how things developed from its result.

For these reasons the literalness of the account has only anecdotal impact but nothing with any firm support. There are analogous accounts from other culturals so maybe some sort of flood event happened but I see the biblical account's redemptive goal to be superior to its literalness with the case of the flood. I don't take offence to the details as they are but a literal goal is not why I read it.

I appreciate what you've shared here, but as a philosopher I flip the matrix and put theology, and its resulting faith, last as an a posteriori emergent outcome. So, you and I will go at this a bit differently. And that's ok.

Personally, I want to know who the author of the Biblical Flood account was, what his intended message was, and what his particular sources were from which he drew up his writings, accounts, and/or narratives. Unfortunately, much of that is very difficult to get at, if even possible. I only expect there to be fragmentary evidences, if any even exist.

With your interpretation, one has to start with the assumption that everything that has been revealed in Christ is true, and then the older material is deemed to be "explained" with purpose. However, in my approach, I only let that gate open at the end of investigation, cumulatively, not as a preliminary. I try to start with as few a priori assumptions as possible, asking question upon question along the way, and knocking on many skeptical and atheistic walls before getting to "faith," or to an understanding and acceptance of what the Biblical Flood account is in its literary essence (whether that essence is prophetic and mythic, or literal and revealed, or a mere remnant cultural surmising of a by-gone ancient era).

If there is a literary goal Moses (or other Mosaic writers) had in mind by presenting the Flood Account along with the rest of what is written in Genesis (or perhaps in consideration of the entire Pentateuch, maybe), then I need to be able to detect that historiographically within the Torah material itself.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Correct, but it's not just unlikely, Hans. As per David MacDonald's article below (1988), it hasn't been tracked to any particular flood of the Euphrates, nor of the Tigris, nor of any other ancient but now defunct rivers that were in the region long ago.

And? An interesting article, but I'm not sure what you are trying to add here. I know it hasn't been tracked to any particular event because some factions would never shut up about it if it had.
And even if it was tracked specifically and exactly, it wouldn't make any difference to the central concern of believing the Biblical Flood Account.

Right? Or should it?
And you point is what?
 
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DamianWarS

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I appreciate what you've shared here, but as a philosopher I flip the matrix and put theology, and its resulting faith, last as an a posteriori emergent outcome. So, you and I will go at this a bit differently. And that's ok.
You don't need to accept a theological application for the text to be primarily motivated theologically. We may both approach any theological message differently but even if it carries a false message this can still be it's goal.

The biblical account may be a retelling of another flood account that has been lost to time so authorship would be difficult. The lack of clear authorship may also point to a much later date as well where theologically driven goals would emerge and the historical clarity lost. It is in a chiastic structure too that goes 16 layers deep starting from from ch 6 to 9 and the Bible highlights it's redemptive message plus surrounding passages have clear theological goals.

The text stands largely is contextless in that it stands alone with no surrounding application and despite having a genealogical record it has no other historical record of how it impacted the world around it. A superior theological goal and inferior literal goal would seem a better fit even if you don't agree with the theological message.
 
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