Noah's Ark

Subduction Zone said:

If it was a member here it would be seen as an attack.

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You may have the feeling or emotion or desire or thought that it is an attack,
as many people thought(were taught by religious leaders apparently, world wide) that JESUS is ONE Who attacks (or would attack) them,
without any basis,
but JESUS came as THE LIGHT, and darkness fleas away - it is not an attack on anyone, but darkness is gone when the LIGHT is present, no matter where the LIGHT IS.
Remember darkness (carnality) was exemplified in the NT by those who claimed "I am of Paul; or I am of Apollos, or even I am in Christ's crowd" -- none of which was true testimony of JESUS, but all of which were in error in their persepective/ testimony/ knowledge/ daily living... and they all need (-ed) LIGHT OF JESUS, YHWH'S WAY (not man's way)....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No worries. (or eternal worries).

Read the New Testament, seeking truth..... oh, and do good for others, whoever you see in need and have the means to help them....

there's nothing else you can do, that I know of, that might help.

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LOL. Thanks for the guide to life. It's always nice to be patronized.

AV1611VET said:

And you don't pay attention.

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Would 3 nickles (or nickels), and a chicken be okay ?

Obliquinaut said:

LOL. Thanks for the guide to life. It's always nice to be patronized.

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Not patronized, unless you mean whatever by that.

Think for a while on this - what can you do to obtain life ? (eternal life AND life now, on earth)

AV1611VET said:

Did I not say NEVERMIND when you brought up losing faith in God?

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I'm sorry I didn't realize you controlled my actions! My bad!

First you said they lost faith, then you said though that they kept their saving faith.

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You are mischaracterizing what I said in a severe sense. You better watch yourself as I will NOT take people lying about my position. I will for now assume it was unintentional.

I said they lost faith in the Noachian Flood as literal truth. Please go back and read the post.

And for the record, I believe once saved, always saved.

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I couldn't care less about your religious beliefs. I'm more concerned about how loosely you apply them when it comes to others whether it's passing judgement on others or bearing false witness (again, I am hopeful it was an oversight on your part).

But please let that serve as a warning. Thanks.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Not patronized, unless you mean whatever by that.

Think for a while on this - what can you do to obtain life ? (eternal life AND life now, on earth)

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But you see, I don't want your version of "life". In fact I left that specifically because it didn't feel like "life" to me.

I'm more than happy for you to have your faith and I would never want to take it from you. By the same token I would hope that my life would be my own and you might be OK with me having it as I see fit.

You see, I have an ethical and moral system that works quite well for me. I endeavor to do whatever good I can. I don't see the need to lard onto it your beliefs unsubstantiated as I perceive them to be.

But thanks anyway.

AV1611VET said:

And for the record, I believe once saved, always saved.

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For the record,
in the next life,
if someone is there, alive with all the living,
it is true that they are saved and won't ever be lost ....

Obliquinaut said:

But you see, I don't want your version of "life". In fact I left that specifically because it didn't feel like "life" to me.

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Jesus did not come to give anyone life they "felt" like having... did He?

Important footnote: re "I left that specifically" -- actually VERY important --- find out if that was life at all...
or forget all about that, as if it was not life at all,
and seek the truth from YHWH, Creator, Who holds the destiny of everyone in His Hands.
Seek the truth from YHWH,
since all mankind is deceitful and willingly rejects YHWH...
and
only YHWH has the WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE....

AV1611VET said:

You're right. That did impress me.

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My apologies for going nuclear.

I apologize.Colter is not a fellow Christian. In fact, he lists himself as a CHRISTIAN SEEKER.

He is in the Urantia cult.

Here are some things Urantia teaches:

1. Prayer is not to be attempted until one has "exhausted the human capacity for human adjustment." In addition, "words are irrelevant to prayer."
2. The biblical doctrine of atonement (Hebrews 9:22) "unnecessarily encumbered Christianity with teachings about blood and sacrifice."
3. The home is seen as a "sociological institution," and the belief that marriage is a sacred state is called "unfortunate." "Deity is not a conjoining party" in marriages that dissolve.
4. Mankind's parents were named Andon and Fonta, who procreated Sontad.
5. Adam, Solomon, and David were not in the direct line of ancestry of Joseph, the father of Jesus.
6. Jesus adopted the term "Son of Man" at age fifteen after reading a passage in the so-called Book of Enoch.
7. During his twenty-eighth and twenty-ninth years on earth, Jesus toured the Roman world, accompanied by the natives from India.
8. The indwelling Christ is not essential to salvation, since "Jesus does not require his disciples to believe in him but rather to believe with him."

Source: Larson's Book of World Religions and Alternative Spirituality

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You don't need to sell me on the strangeness of the Urantians. His theology is interesting and more moderated which I'm usually more "ok" with, but no doubt there's a lot of weirdness, as there is in any religious creed.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Jesus did not come to give anyone life they "felt" like having... did He?

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He came to give eternal life. I don't see a need for that. He came to forgive sins, I can see a value in that but that's up to me to atone to my fellow man. He came to teach peace, but I've seen so many Christians on this board and in the real world that seem to relish the fight. I've seen them wave away the command to put up they sword and not live by it in gun debates, I've seen them justify those who strike back despite being asked to resist not evil and turn the other cheek.

I don't want those things. I have the ethics and morality I need even without that.

Important footnote: re "I left that specifically" -- actually VERY important --- find out if that was life at all...

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My relationship with "faith" was fraught. It was part of an illness I suffer from (others like Martin Luther who share my illness in part) used it to turn to faith, but it caused me to need to re-evaluate my faith and ultimately leave it. (It wasn't hard once I reviewed the fact that none of it really ever felt "real" or wasn't explicable by normal human activities).

and seek the truth from YHWH, Creator, Who holds the destiny of everyone in His Hands.
Seek the truth from YHWH,

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I kept dialing the phone but there was no one on the other end of the line. Kudos for you for getting ahold of Him. I never did.

since all mankind is deceitful and willingly rejects YHWH...
and
only YHWH has the WORDS of ETERNAL LIFE....

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But I don't want eternal life. I don't want eternal torture either (which is the flip side of that particular coin depending on the variant of the faith). I just want my end to be that...an end.

I'm as vain as the next person and would love to think of myself carrying on, but that's not a realistic goal, nor does it feel like anything more than a childish want. Like "wanting" to eat nothing but candy.

But I understand those who do want that eternity. I don't.

Obliquinaut said:

He came to give eternal life. I don't see a need for that. He came to forgive sins, I can see a value in that but that's up to me to atone to my fellow man. He came to teach peace, but I've seen so many Christians on this board and in the real world that seem to relish the fight. I've seen them wave away the command to put up they sword and not live by it in gun debates, I've seen them justify those who strike back despite being asked to resist not evil and turn the other cheek.

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Yes, like all the world, you have seen the counterfeit, the fake, the hypocrites, the false teachers (despots and perverts and worse!) ,
the false prophets (many),
just as Jesus warned His chosen disciples strictly about.
Nothing new about all those.

What would be new? You already know..... and likely barely if at all would once have hoped to see - true life. This is rare - to desire it and even more rare to experience it in Christ Jesus (there is no other way to experience this)... this is so rare, you and most others might never have seen it or at least not recognized it - the false is so much more common and known and publicized and promoted and encouraged and seen (and that which is 'popular'/ worldly/ seeks to wipe out that which is true, as always) .....

I don't want those things. I have the ethics and morality I need even without that.

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This is what is needed - true ethics/ morality/ in reality, and this is what perhaps you hoped once to find and pretty much gave up on ever finding...
Yes, this is the normal life on earth - not being able to find good, true, ethics and morality no matter where you/anyone looks...
And the ONLY place you might actually recognize it FIRST, before finding it in person if ever,
is in Ephesians. Where YHWH describes it, in the few in the first century or 2 who actually lived HIS LIFE.

Jesus told His disciples: I know you don't know how to live (either experientially in truth, nor having been trained in truth and in life the right way, with no examples to follow in your lives) .....
and you won't be able to accomplish this yourselves - if you think you can, then you have already failed (before you even start)..
rather, come to ME(JESUS) and learn from ME(JESUS)...
trust the Father in heaven (now, today) to accomplish your salvation in this life and in the life to come, everything concerning this,
believe your heavenly Father , rely on Him, and as soon as you do, it is already done.

Thus, not by human effort, nor by human energy, nor by human will (as an origin or as the power) ,
but by the Father's DOING, according to ALL HIS WORD,
is the ONLY WAY to find LIFE and to live HIS WAY, to live right....

Obliquinaut said:

I kept dialing the phone but there was no one on the other end of the line. Kudos for you for getting ahold of Him. I never did.

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You're right, there was no one on the other end of the line.(back then)...
But, no,
No. No 'kudos' for me (if I understand what you mean)...
My only boasting is in what JESUS has done; what the FATHER has accomplished.
I was only willing, as an unworthy servant, to do my duty as His slave, yes willingly His slave - since the only option is to remain a slave of wretched sin and evil.
His plan for you is opening up, the bare beginning(His Choice), tonight. Don't hurry, don't worry, don't try to make it happen. HE is in charge. Not us.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

You may have the feeling or emotion or desire or thought that it is an attack,
as many people thought(were taught by religious leaders apparently, world wide) that JESUS is ONE Who attacks (or would attack) them,
without any basis,
but JESUS came as THE LIGHT, and darkness fleas away - it is not an attack on anyone, but darkness is gone when the LIGHT is present, no matter where the LIGHT IS.
Remember darkness (carnality) was exemplified in the NT by those who claimed "I am of Paul; or I am of Apollos, or even I am in Christ's crowd" -- none of which was true testimony of JESUS, but all of which were in error in their persepective/ testimony/ knowledge/ daily living... and they all need (-ed) LIGHT OF JESUS, YHWH'S WAY (not man's way)....

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Sorry, but your rationalization will not get anywhere. Forget about Jesus right now. That does not matter. On this site if a person identifies as a Christian one cannot claim otherwise, no matter how strange his beliefs may seem.

AV was attacking people in a way that if they were members here would not be allowed.

But let's get back to the topic at hand. Do you know why we know that there was no flood of Noah?

Subduction Zone said:

Forget about Jesus right now.

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Never! No, it is not possible... do not ask any believer ever to do this....
This is not even possible for someone abiding in Jesus, born again by the will of the Father in heaven, called and chosen and set apart (holy) by YHWH as written in Scripture.

Subduction Zone said:

But let's get back to the topic at hand. Do you know why we know that there was no flood of Noah?

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I know you don't know anything of the sort.
What you think you know, is common among deceived mankind ...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I know you don't know anything of the sort.

What you think you know, is common among deceived mankind ...

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Then you have some learning to do.

And no, I am not deceived at all. You do realize that attempting to treat Genesis literally is a fairly recent belief, don't you? Worldwide most Christians accept the theory of evolution. I sincerely doubt if they believe the Noah's Ark myth. If one looks at it as a morality tale it is still of value. But one runs into serious problems if one pretends that it reflects what actually happened in the past.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Never! No, it is not possible... do not ask any believer ever to do this....
This is not even possible for someone abiding in Jesus, born again by the will of the Father in heaven, called and chosen and set apart (holy) by YHWH as written in Scripture.

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Then perhaps you should not debate in the science based parts of this forum. You will only look bad if you do. You can't simply rely on the Bible here. You need outside support for your claims. Part of the problem is that there are countless interpretations of what the Bible says. Other Christians will disagree with how you interpret the Bible. Here we look at what the real world says and see if your interpretations are correct.

Subduction Zone said:

Part of the problem is that there are countless interpretations of what the Bible says. Other Christians will disagree with how you interpret the Bible. Here we look at what the real world says and see if your interpretations are correct.

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Very common mistake (though that doesn't make it acceptable).
YHWH does not permit varied interpretations of His Word, and He Says so.
Those who are outside of Him, interpreting without hearing from Him, in error, He warns against.

He Promises to everyone who seeks and loves the truth, if they keep seeking for the truth, they will find it, and the truth will set them free.

This Promise is also to you, if you meet God's qualifications/ requirements.
If you don't , then like the rest of the world, the truth remains outside of your ability to comprehend (or even to see it), according to God's Word.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Very common mistake (though that doesn't make it acceptable).
YHWH does not permit varied interpretations of His Word, and He Says so.
Those who are outside of Him, interpreting without hearing from Him, in error, He warns against.

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It does not matter what he supposedly permits, and who is to say that is not just a bad interpretaion of yours? What does matter is that people do have different interpretations of it. By the way, since the Bible is a man written book, I have always had a problem with people trying to claim it was the "word of God". If man had written it it would be full of errors, and guess what? The Bible is rife with them. But getting back to your claims:

He Promises to everyone who seeks and loves the truth, if they keep seeking for the truth, they will find it, and the truth will set them free.

This Promise is also to you, if you meet God's qualifications/ requirements.
If you don't , then like the rest of the world, the truth remains outside of your ability to comprehend (or even to see it), according to God's Word.

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Now now, no false claims. I can understand the Bible just as well as you if not better. You did not tell me how you know that your interpretation is superior to that of others. Your word alone is not worth very much.

Worse yet you have run away from the fact that there never was a worldwide flood. We have all sorts of independent evidence that this is the case and no evidence at all for the flood. Well except for the story in the Bible and since that is what we are checking out it is, like it or not, disqualified from being a source in this debate.

Tell me, why do you believe that there was a worldwide flood? I can tell you why I know that there was not.