Noah's Ark

[razeontherock]

First, the words created and made are very close in definition...

No they're not - unless you are assuming Genesis was originally written in English?

Look up Genesis 1:25-27 and then Genesis 2:18-19 and then rectify that for me.

Already done.

 

[razeontherock]

So, Noah was human... but the rest of humans weren't? I'm really confused here and have no idea where you are coming from. I know the bible says stuff about the sons of God and the daughters of men, and giants and all that other stuff. I don't see, however, where it says that Noah was the only human left. Your definitely going to have to explain your position on that.

What did God mean when He said "all flesh had become corrupt?" What violence would you do to the text to twist it into saying something other than "all flesh had become corrupt?"

Why did He need to destroy all the animals, and not just sinful people?

Now if you look at why Noah was chosen for Salvation, God said "he was perfect in all his generations." How would you twist that into personal righteousness? He was HUMAN, not "corrupted" via unholy angels screwing around with everything that moved. Such is the story anyway. (You're also missing the greater part of this by ignoring other literature of the day and relying solely on the Bible, but it still adds up)

I'm in the Navy, on an aircraft carrier in fact. I've sailed over the equator, both tropics, and all over the Pacific. Never have I seen anything that your talking about. Yes, you can see the land just dropping, but bro... you got water stretching out for thousands of miles. Have you ever sailed over a continental shelf?

While I appreciate your service, you are not a "sailor." On your carrier, you have a major fleet around you to protect our assets. Any possibility of observing what I refer to has been disturbed before you get to it. And neither is it apparent from a power boat, which is why I specifically said "sailed." I will also admit the conditions I'm referring to are not 100% consistent, and I'm not sure if it's due to weather, which part of which continental shelf you're over, activity of marine life beneath you, or what combination of variables. What I'm saying is this contributed to the perception of a flat earth, and did so far more than what the Bible says. Also in the dark ages mis-reading, misunderstanding, and jumping to ridiculous conclusions was the norm.

 

[razeontherock]

Consider yourself laughed out of the room. Do you know how hot it is under the crust of the earth?

You are confusing things that need to be kept separate. Your comment was that the story of Noah's flood, accounted for the water appearing merely due to rain. That is simply false.

And here you go to the wild conclusion that water coming up from the ground would somehow come from beneath the earth's crust, and somehow go through it?!? The deepest of wells doesn't even scratch the surface of the crust, let alone penetrate it.

Like most creationists

I am not a creationist. The sheer number of assumptions you're willing to make, and the wildly off-base conclusions you draw from them, is staggering. At the same time, I do appreciate that you are almost certainly quite young, (average age on board an aircraft carrier is under what, 23?) may be under extreme pressure, and likely don't get much time to reflect. What capacity do you serve in?

As I'm sure you know, you are gaining valuable experience. When your current tour of duty is over, you will have some time to reflect on all of it. Hopefully some elements of these conversations will come to mind at that time, and you can sort through things then, in a more reasonable fashion. Your current pace is really not conducive to hearing from God.

 

[razeontherock]

You are absolutely right Amaranthine, but in the ancient world people really did think that the earth was flat. They also thought the sun revolved around the earth, leeching would cure you of all diseases, and sacrificing your babies would somehow appease invisible gods.

And yet in your list, one item actually had some merit: with some medical conditions, people did benefit from applying leeches. Not quite as sanitary as a modern day blood transfusion, but here in WI the blood supply recently got tainted and there is a medium-sized very serious health issue relating from it. Don't forget scientists back when were called "philosophers."

Again, I would like to make the point that if God, in all of his perfection, knew that both modern and ancient mankind would struggle with the phrasing of the Bible, then why not make it more clear?

You need to be introduced to a concept: "hermeneutics." You can look up that term and find it's meaning, but basically it is the study of hearing a passage of Scripture the way the original audience did. Almost every problem you are demonstrating here is due to a simple lack of proper hermeneutics. In your case it appears you have made no effort to attempt to understand what the original audience would have understood.

In answer to your question, (or IF you choose to understand the Bible) I will point out that many translations are based on the idea of finding one English word for any given word in the original language. This is incredibly problematic especially for the OT, which was written in Hebrew! In your travels you may come across a bi-lingual native Hebrew speaker and they can
give you a much better idea about this than I can, but basically there are some Hebrew words that will take many paragraphs just to convey the concept, and you still won't get it without also understanding their culture, which was REALLY foreign to our's. Many passages of Scripture really won't even begin to make sense until you learn how it fit into their social customs. Compare it to a current newspaper headline reading "Cardinals beat Blue Jays," and someone 4,000 years from now reading it, living in a society that has long abandoned sports.

 

[razeontherock]

Scripture is clear in that we are incapable of totally understanding God; let us compare it to expecting an earthworm to understand the complexity of humanity in all its aspects. Humans do not even know all there is to know about humans... how can we expect to know all about God Who is beyond measure? However, not being able to fully understand something does not mean we are totally incapable of knowing anything in part, nor does it mean we are incapable of having any kind of understanding. It just means we are limited. Ancient peoples were possibly more limited in their understanding since they did not know as much, but it is not an intellectual exercise to know God. Meaning, one does not need to know whether the earth revolves around the sun or vice versa to know God. In fact, it is immaterial.

Excellent post!

 

[razeontherock]

However, I believe that man has always used God to fill in the knowledge gap.

And I agree with you

That has NOTHING to do with Faith! I think almost all "religions" have added some purely human elements like you allude to here. These always distort the Truth, and make it difficult to see the underlying Truths, which are both beautiful and profound. Maybe one day your life will be enriched by them? This is something that takes time and effort ...

The ancient Norsemen used used to believe that a solar eclipse was their wolf god on the prowl

I'm a Norseman. My ancestors were Asatru. (And on a side-note, you don't know the meaning of "cold" until you've sailed the North Atlantic in winter! A hardy bunch they were) They didn't take their legends literally. (The same is true of most pagans)

At any given time, how many in their society grasped the meaning of even one of their legends, let alone all of them? And what I'll say is that God Himself was attempting to reveal Himself, and on no occaision has anyone really gotten it right; always falsehood and bias has been added, due to humans being flawed. This is what makes Christianity so special! Jesus came "down from heaven;" not that we can even comprehend what that really means ...

And yet so much "religion" has been (falsely) added to the Purity of the Gospel, that most get distracted by nonsense rather than ever finding the Power it contains. If you hear nothing else, hear the warning to avoid this trap. It's not hard; just stick to what comes from God. That should make it pretty simple for you! The focus it leaves you with is incredibly basic, seeing as you don't think such an Entity exists. What things within it cannot possibly be attributed to man? Pursue that line of thought and you'll discover fascinating things ...

 

[razeontherock]

If God were truly all powerful he would know the way to bridge the language barrier.

And He DOES! Rarely does He even bother with words ... (But you should dismiss man-made concepts like "all powerful." The omnis all seem to be false, except for Omnipresent. On a related tangent, if you're familiar with string theory, seeing God as working on that level agrees with everything the Bible says, and never conflicts)

 

[razeontherock]

If God wanted to reach the most people with his words he would have been more likely to cater us as opposed to the people that lived 2000 years ago.

The usual atheist complaint is, "why did God wait so long to enter the fray and make Salvation available?" (There are great answers to that too, which of course line up well with what is known via anthropology and archaeology)

 

[razeontherock]

According to the Bible it was God who created the language barrier in the first place. God must really hate multilingual people.

Sir, you really are not that ignorant? Obviously you refer to the tower of Babel; how is it you don't already recognize the day of Pentecost as it's reversal?!? (On a related point, candidates for members of the Sanhedrin and it's predecessor "the Great Assembly" had to be able to speak "the 70 languages")

 

[razeontherock]

No, I believe that man is neutral. Man has potential for great good and great evil. It is the individual who decides who and what they become. People can be influenced toward certain actions, but in the end it is ultimately up to the individual to choose to steal, or to kill, or to help the old lady across the street, etc.

This aligns with both Judaism and Orthodox Christianity. (Just so you know)

 

[razeontherock]

Something like that, yeah.

Or, to take it a step further, he could have made the Bible less ambiguous. He could have come out and said that slavery is evil, don't do it. Instead he sets down rules and guidelines about how to properly beat your slave and how slaves should be good to their masters. He could have said that you don't need to sacrifice animals to worship me, all you need to do is pray and I'll hear it. Instead he commands sacrifices and savors the smells. Instead of saying that gender equality is awesome, he told women to shut up in church. Instead of ordering his people to murder countless men, women, and children he could have easily came down from heaven and told the enemy cities worship me. But he didn't.

It is for those, and many more, reasons that I believe the Bible to be just a book and God to be a creation of evil men to justify their wicked ways.

Whoa whoa WHOA! Every one of these is a valid concern, but an ignorant assertion; you simply don't know the Scripture. Are you really wanting to tackle any of these issues, and learn? Or are you just wanting to ridicule? God does give you the choice. Choose well:

Indiana Jones, Nazi Uber aging - YouTube

 

[golgotha61]

There were only 1 billion people living in the world in 1804, 2 billion in 1927, 3 billion in 1960, 4 billion in 1974, 5 billion in 1987, 6 billion in 1999, and almost 7 billion in 2011. So from 10,000 BCE to 1804 there were less than one billion people alive at one time. At the time of Christ there was an estimated 35 million people alive. If God wanted to reach the most people with his words he would have been more likely to cater us as opposed to the people that lived 2000 years ago.

Not your call now is it? You are not in the position to tell God how or who to reveal Himself. His plan is set out all through the Bible, from the OT to the NT. In general, His revelation was to Abram and his family which would then become the nation of Israel who God called to be a nation of priests to proclaim Him to the world. Israel failed and was set aside until the time of the Gentile was completed. Christ then completed the law and made believers the priests and it our job to proclaim the Gospel to the world. Whether or not you accept the OT narratives as truth and factual is irrelevant. When you get to the doors of heaven and God asks you why you should be allowed to enter His Kingdom, only your faith in Christ will suffice, not your belief in the reality of Noah's ark and its narrative. So for that reason alone, God did not focus on complete explanations of some of the OT narratives but rather on Christ and His message, sacrificial death, and resurrection.

And many Christians have found enough unclarity to believe it false. Your point is moot.

You have no idea why some believe and others don't believe, your assertion that it is because of lack of clarity is again beyond your area of knowledge.

I don't want to know God... been down that road. I hope I didn't give off that impression.

Then why are you here? This is the exploring Christianity forum not the bashing Christianity forum.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Sir, you really are not that ignorant? Obviously you refer to the tower of Babel; how is it you don't already recognize the day of Pentecost as it's reversal?!? (On a related point, candidates for members of the Sanhedrin and it's predecessor "the Great Assembly" had to be able to speak "the 70 languages")

You keep handing out ad hominems in this thread. Please stop. I'm not ignorant. I was pointing out the absurdity of the Babel story. God divided humanity because he was apparently afraid of their ability to erect large buildings which could "reach to the heavens". We have skyscrapers across the world now. Why isn't God dividing humanity because of these? Furthermore, why did God want to keep humanity divided in the first place? Does God not want peace in the world?

Or could it be that this is just yet another bizarre and silly story found in the pages of the Bible that is an attempt, from a bronze age perspective, to explain the multitude of languages found in the world?

 

[razeontherock]

Perhaps you don't recognize what the stories are meant to signify, just as you don't recognize a question is not an ad hom. It's every bit as distinct as Nimrod's tower from say, WTC

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Perhaps you don't recognize what the stories are meant to signify, just as you don't recognize a question is not an ad hom. It's every bit as distinct as Nimrod's tower from say, WTC

I don't really care what they signify because they're myths. Answer me this; do you believe the Greek myth of Prometheus? Prometheus stole fire from Zeus in order to give it to humans. Zeus got angry at this and had Prometheus punished in quite a gruesome manner. You can read about it in Wikipedia. The point of the story was, from the perspective of the ancient Greeks, to explain how humans came to master the fine art of building a campfire. Do you believe this tale? If you don't, then can I ask why you reject the story of Prometheus? Now you perhaps understand why I reject the myths of Noah and the Tower of Babel.

 

[StormHawk]

Firstly, the Bible describes the Flood as covering the whole earth. ...

Oh dear, you havn't acknowledged any of the scriptural or other points I made in my post #20. Please do so, they will educate you.

If you come to these forums "quick to speak, slow to listen" you will learn nothing and just go away with your preconceptions, thereby wasting your (and other people's) time and effort.

 

[mmcneely]

Now if you look at why Noah was chosen for Salvation, God said "he was perfect in all his generations." How would you twist that into personal righteousness? He was HUMAN, not "corrupted" via unholy angels screwing around with everything that moved. Such is the story anyway. (You're also missing the greater part of this by ignoring other literature of the day and relying solely on the Bible, but it still adds up)

First of all, the Bible says Noah was a just man AND perfect in all his generations. If that means his dad didn't have sex with an angel has been debated by many different denominations. That is also NOT the point of this discussion.

While I appreciate your service, you are not a "sailor."

That's you assuming that I have never been on a boat with sails. A false assumption I might add.

On your carrier, you have a major fleet around you to protect our assets. Any possibility of observing what I refer to has been disturbed before you get to it.

I can bet you've never been on an aircraft carrier, so your opinions on how one looks like while operational isn't valid. No, the movies don't always get it right.

And neither is it apparent from a power boat, which is why I specifically said "sailed." I will also admit the conditions I'm referring to are not 100% consistent, and I'm not sure if it's due to weather, which part of which continental shelf you're over, activity of marine life beneath you, or what combination of variables...

So, you don't know for sure if it even looks like what you've described it as. Have you even crossed over a continental shelf before?

 

[mmcneely]

No they're not - unless you are assuming Genesis was originally written in English?

I know that it wasn't written in English. But it was translated into english.

Already done.

That was in regards to the contradicting creation accounts. You didn't explain it to me so I'm going to assume that you think it's contradictory as well.

 

[mmcneely]

The sheer number of assumptions you're willing to make, and the wildly off-base conclusions you draw from them, is staggering.

I could say the same thing about you. You make a LOT of assumptions about me. To be honest your arrogance is stifling at time.

At the same time, I do appreciate that you are almost certainly quite young, (average age on board an aircraft carrier is under what, 23?) may be under extreme pressure, and likely don't get much time to reflect. What capacity do you serve in?

I don't know the average age on a carrier. It would depend on if you were talking about officer or enlisted and what pay grades.

My age doesn't matter, but I am old compared to most of the people on my ship.

Your current pace is really not conducive to hearing from God.

That's funny, because even when life was slower I never heard from God.

 

[mmcneely]

Whoa whoa WHOA! Every one of these is a valid concern, but an ignorant assertion; you simply don't know the Scripture. Are you really wanting to tackle any of these issues, and learn? Or are you just wanting to ridicule? God does give you the choice. Choose well:

So, I'm going to rapidly age and die if I choose poorly?

Dude, the Bible condones such heinous acts as slavery, racism, sexism, genocide, the killing of gays, killing rebellious children, and killing people who don't believe in God. I would challenge anyone to prove otherwise.