Noah's Ark

[mmcneely]

Not your call now is it? You are not in the position to tell God how or who to reveal Himself. His plan is set out all through the Bible, from the OT to the NT.

Ok, let's say your right. God created mankind. God gave mankind superior intellect. Therefore I have the ability to think, reason, and question. Is it wrong for me to use these God given gifts?

You have no idea why some believe and others don't believe, your assertion that it is because of lack of clarity is again beyond your area of knowledge.

Whoa guy! You just said a few posts ago that some people convert to Christianity because of all the clarity that is in the Bible! Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black.

Then why are you here? This is the exploring Christianity forum not the bashing Christianity forum.

Really? Cause I believe that I am exploring it... and besides check the rules. This is like the only place where non-Christians can post.

 

[drich0150]

Really? Cause I believe that I am exploring it...

You only seem to want to "explore" that in which you can easily argue.

 

[mmcneely]

Well, if your Bible is perfect, it should be easy to defend.

 

[drich0150]

Well, if your Bible is perfect, it should be easy to defend.

Indeed, yet there are quite of few (Easily defended but less easy to refute) biblical points I left for you, on this topic that you seem uninterested in "exploring." That is why i pointed out you only seem to be interested in "Exploring" the things you can easily argue.

One could make the observation you only seem to be interested in exploring the portions of Christianity you feel you can defeat while ignoring the more difficult portions. which is not a truthful exploration at all. Why do you mask your true intentions here?

 

[mmcneely]

Indeed, yet there are quite of few (Easily defended but less easy to refute) biblical points I left for you, on this topic that you seem uninterested in "exploring." That is why i pointed out you only seem to be interested in "Exploring" the things you can easily argue.

Well it seems that we have both overlooked some of the other's posts... either intentionally or unintentionally.

One could make the observation you only seem to be interested in exploring the portions of Christianity you feel you can defeat while ignoring the more difficult portions. which is not a truthful exploration at all. Why do you mask your true intentions here?

My intentions, if you wish to know, are not evil as you may think.

I believe that faith is essential in life. There are many types of faith and many degrees of faith, all of which can be very healthy or very damaging.

I believe that faith in a deity, in this case the God of Christianity, is unnecessary and very damaging. Let's face it, there are a lot of morally dark things that God either does or allows in the Bible. Everything from advocating slavery, ordering the massacre of entire cities, and changing the intentions of men to teach a lesson. If you or I were to do these thing we would be tried and executed for our actions. Christians always say that God can do whatever he wants so it's ok. Well, it's not ok. If I tell my son not to steal, and then I go about stealing, what kind of example am I setting for him? If God is supposed to be someone to look up to, then why is doing things that make Hitler look like a saint? Please, ignore the cookie cutter answers that are cropping up in your mind and truly think about it. If God wanted us to live pure and holy lives he wouldn't be practicing genocide in the first few books of the Bible. He wouldn't give guidelines on how to beat your slave. He wouldn't tell the Jewish people to kill their children for disrespect. He wouldn't allow the degradation of women. If you consider any of these things to be sin, then you have to admit to yourself that God has sinned. And if God has sinned he is no longer perfect. And if he is no longer perfect why serve him?

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Oh dear, you havn't acknowledged any of the scriptural or other points I made in my post #20. Please do so, they will educate you.

If you come to these forums "quick to speak, slow to listen" you will learn nothing and just go away with your preconceptions, thereby wasting your (and other people's) time and effort.

I've read post #20 and found your arguments unconvincing. Also, many Christians disagree with you too and continue to argue that the Flood was a global event. When I was a Christian all of the Churches I attended (from Baptists to Pentecostal and everything in between) taught the Flood as a Global event. I was taught in Sunday School to believe it was a Global event. I think you're opinions are therefore probably in the minority.

 

[StormHawk]

I've read post #20 and found your arguments unconvincing. Also, many Christians disagree with you too and continue to argue that the Flood was a global event. When I was a Christian all of the Churches I attended (from Baptists to Pentecostal and everything in between) taught the Flood as a Global event. I was taught in Sunday School to believe it was a Global event. I think you're opinions are therefore probably in the minority.

So what argument are you convinced by?

What do you believe on the matter?

No flood at all?

 

[mmcneely]

From what I have read, it is safe to say that Grumpy and I both believe that the Biblical flood never happened. Global or local.

 

[razeontherock]

So, I'm going to rapidly age and die if I choose poorly?

It's a joke, playing on words.

Dude, the Bible condones such heinous acts as slavery, racism, sexism, genocide, the killing of gays, killing rebellious children, and killing people who don't believe in God.

No it doesn't, that is merely your misunderstanding. Ok, many others have joined you in it, including the single largest C sect.

I would challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Done. If you think you have the mettle to tear into the content, I'll furnish you the link to the thread on the topic; although if you're serving on a carrier I don't see how you'd have the time to even read it, let alone digest the material and respond.

 

[razeontherock]

I can bet you've never been on an aircraft carrier, so your opinions on how one looks like while operational isn't valid. No, the movies don't always get it right.

So, you don't know for sure if it even looks like what you've described it as. Have you even crossed over a continental shelf before?

I plainly stated I have, and that a "power boat" will disturb the water too much to see the phenomena I refer to. I mean, a 16' power boat! No I've never been on an aircraft carrier nor any other military vessel, not even a PT boat. Movies are irrelevant here; how big is the smallest operational aircraft carrier in the US fleet? How big is the one you are on? Quite a bit bigger than 16' obviously, it's wake will disturb the water quite a bit more, and it's already been disturbed before your bow crosses the point where things get interesting.

Now having been on a boat with sails and having done enough heavy offshore cruising on a sailboat to have crossed any continental shelf undisturbed by a motor, are 2 very different things. If you've done that, either you wouldn't be challenging what I said, or somehow the conditions you were in were quite different from both my own experience, and everything I've ever heard of. (Either at night or during dark and stormy conditions might qualify, I'm not sure)

 

[razeontherock]

I know that it wasn't written in English. But it was translated into english.

That was in regards to the contradicting creation accounts. You didn't explain it to me so I'm going to assume that you think it's contradictory as well.

Assumptions are always bad, and no i haven't assumed anything about you. Created and made are difficult to distinguish in English, but understanding these terms as used is enough of an explanation. Which means that for you to just "assume I think it's contradictory," is foolish.

What you see is 2 different accounts; one of creation, one of making. "Created and made." 2 distinct things. Perhaps not unlike strategy from tactics. The original plan, like a blueprint, vs the actual house built.

 

[golgotha61]

Ok, let's say your right. God created mankind. God gave mankind superior intellect. Therefore I have the ability to think, reason, and question. Is it wrong for me to use these God given gifts?

I thought you were an atheist. I am glad you acknowledge you have abilities from God. That is a good start.

Whoa guy! You just said a few posts ago that some people convert to Christianity because of all the clarity that is in the Bible! Looks like the pot is calling the kettle black.

Not at all, I can give the names of those who were once atheists and have written books so you can verify what I say. C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell, Frank Morison. What I said was, there was enough clarity in the Bible for these men to believe.

Really? Cause I believe that I am exploring it... and besides check the rules. This is like the only place where non-Christians can post.

No you're not, you just posted in #55 that you did not want to know God. Also I doubt you really want to explore given your sarcasm, it is obvious your mind is already made up. You are wasting people's time who really care about those who are looking for and willing to believe the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[mmcneely]

No it doesn't, that is merely your misunderstanding. Ok, many others have joined you in it, including the single largest C sect.

I really doubt it's my misunderstanding. Several verses in the OT show us God's opinion on slavery. These passages include the buying, selling, punishment of slaves. Also, the legalities of human trafficking are outlined in Exodus 21:7-11. Jesus mentions that slaved can be punished regardless if they knew what they did was wrong. Luke 12:47-48. Paul says that slaves are to be good in Eph. and I Timothy.

I have looked up these passages in several different translations, and I even went to the original languages. Don't post any links, just try and justify this for me if you can.

You say done all the time, but you never post anything other than the word. I don't want you to say done, I want you to defend these passages. If you can't, that's fine.

 

[mmcneely]

I thought you were an atheist. I am glad you acknowledge you have abilities from God. That is a good start.

Wow, your obtuse. I said, "Let's say your right." That is a hypothetical statement, and therefore what came after that was all a hypothetical statement.

Not at all, I can give the names of those who were once atheists and have written books so you can verify what I say. C.S. Lewis, Josh McDowell, Frank Morison. What I said was, there was enough clarity in the Bible for these men to believe.

I understand what you said. I said that although there are people who convert to Christianity every day because of the "clarity" of the Bible there are also people who deconvert because of the unclairity.

No you're not, you just posted in #55 that you did not want to know God. Also I doubt you really want to explore given your sarcasm, it is obvious your mind is already made up. You are wasting people's time who really care about those who are looking for and willing to believe the truth of the Gospel of Christ.

It would also be safe to say that your mind is made up.

Part of exploring something is asking questions. If you feel you cannot answer my questions then perhaps you are wasting your time. If people feel the same way then they will not continue to read this thread, but if they are interested (to either side of the discussion) they will stay and read. It can be considered arrogant to know what someone else is thinking. Let people make up their own minds. That's all I want.

 

[razeontherock]

I really doubt it's my misunderstanding. Several verses in the OT show us God's opinion on slavery.

Of course it's your misunderstanding! What is your "opinion on" Burger King employees?!? What do you suppose the difference is? You're talking about the working poor either way. They didn't exactly have bus lines and unemployment benefits.

Jesus mentions that slaved can be punished regardless if they knew what they did was wrong. Luke 12:47-48.

He said "worthy of stripes." Now you are imposing your own preconceptions onto His words. That's what we might call, thin ice.

Paul says that slaves are to be good in Eph. and I Timothy.

Yup. He also says that masters are to be good to their slaves, which was a pretty radical suggestion at the time. You'll note that God didn't go the point of overturning society to promote human rights. That would've prevented the establishment of His Kingdom on earth, which is how equal rights got a toehold in the first place.

You'll also note that God didn't condescend to us as Savior, until the first time we had a landmass connected by common language and roads, large enough to insure His mission wouldn't be erased by the sands of time! How'd He know that? [/Monty Python]

The concept here is not patience, but longsuffering.

Any more questions?

 

[mmcneely]

Of course it's your misunderstanding! What is your "opinion on" Burger King employees?!? What do you suppose the difference is? You're talking about the working poor either way. They didn't exactly have bus lines and unemployment benefits.

Wow, really?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

These are directly from the Bible. How am I misunderstanding them?

He said "worthy of stripes." Now you are imposing your own preconceptions onto His words. That's what we might call, thin ice.

The part your talking about in verse 48 says, "...and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Look it up, and maybe read the whole verse next time. All translations I have seen have the same message.

Yup. He also says that masters are to be good to their slaves, which was a pretty radical suggestion at the time. You'll note that God didn't go the point of overturning society to promote human rights. That would've prevented the establishment of His Kingdom on earth, which is how equal rights got a toehold in the first place.

So, Jesus has already established his kingdom on earth? *Scanning History Books* When did that happen exactly?

Slavery is evil. There are no questions about it. If the only things God says about it support it then God is evil. There is no way around it.

 

[golgotha61]

Wow, your obtuse. I said, "Let's say your right." That is a hypothetical statement, and therefore what came after that was all a hypothetical statement.

I think you are being disingenuous.

I understand what you said. I said that although there are people who convert to Christianity every day because of the "clarity" of the Bible there are also people who deconvert because of the unclairity.

The point is, acceptance or rejection of the truths in the Bible is not because of clarity or the lack of it. It is a matter of choice and idolatry.

It would also be safe to say that your mind is made up.

Yes it is.

Part of exploring something is asking questions. If you feel you cannot answer my questions then perhaps you are wasting your time. If people feel the same way then they will not continue to read this thread, but if they are interested (to either side of the discussion) they will stay and read. It can be considered arrogant to know what someone else is thinking. Let people make up their own minds. That's all I want.

Oh, I can answer them but you're not very receptive since you like to argue about things you have no understanding of. One who asks questions of those who are more knowledgeable in a particular subject are usually respectful and receptive. Take a look at some of your responses and see if you fit the bill; like your Pikachu comment.

 

[drich0150]

I believe that faith in a deity, in this case the God of Christianity, is unnecessary and very damaging. Let's face it, there are a lot of morally dark things that God either does or allows in the Bible.

According to what standard?

Everything from advocating slavery, ordering the massacre of entire cities, and changing the intentions of men to teach a lesson. If you or I were to do these thing we would be tried and executed for our actions.

What do we lack that God does not? A Complete knowledge of His actions or lack of them and the authority to do these things. These actions are not intrinsically evil. It is when man takes on the role of God that makes these acts evil

Christians always say that God can do whatever he wants so it's OK. Well, it's not OK.

Again who says? you? who are you to judge God? Are you not doing the very thing you are condemning God for doing? What in you mind gives you the authority, and takes it away from God?

If I tell my son not to steal, and then I go about stealing, what kind of example am I setting for him?

Your overly simplified view of "sin" does not take into account all of the other variables God has weighed out when doing things we are not allowed to do.

If God is supposed to be someone to look up to, then why is doing things that make Hitler look like a saint?

Because God is not a role model, He is ultimate authority.

Please, ignore the cookie cutter answers that are cropping up in your mind and truly think about it.

If God wanted us to live pure and holy lives he wouldn't be practicing genocide in the first few books of the Bible.

Please try and refrain from using cookie cutter assessments of Christianity with out first thinking about what you are saying. If God wanted us to live "perfect lives," or even thought/knew that we could their wouldn't be a need for the sacrifice Christ made. The Fact that Christ died tells us that the perfect life we are to live is a myth from the pit of hell.

He wouldn't give guidelines on how to beat your slave. He wouldn't tell the Jewish people to kill their children for disrespect. He wouldn't allow the degradation of women. If you consider any of these things to be sin, then you have to admit to yourself that God has sinned. And if God has sinned he is no longer perfect. And if he is no longer perfect why serve him?

So if God is not a stooge of modern popular culture then He can't be God? Or if "God" is not small enough for your sense of morality to have control over Him then God can't be God?

Seriously?

So God has to be what you expect or God can't be
"God?" What if you were a Jew Hating Nazi in the 1930s? would the same rules apply? Since You are a stooge of popular culture and your morality is solely based on what your peers define morality to be for you then guess for your sake, it was good that you were born when and where you were. Or someone, here in this time could judge your most righteous actions as being evil.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Wow did you come up with that on your own?
Do you know how tired I am of taking apart Epicurus' argument? So tired that I am going to just cut and paste a past response:

Not because I want to be a jerk about it or anything, but I think she poses an interesting point..

I truly hope "she, nor Epicurus" was your big gun here.


​

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.

Evil is the ultimate expression of sin. It is the proof that we indeed have a will outside of God's expressed will. In other words Evil is the proof of free will.


​

Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

By what standard can this finite man judge God, if not by God's own standard? You seem to be able to point out a logical fallacy, care to take a stab at this one? (this last question does not apply to you)

​

Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?

Again, Evil is the proof of Free will. Free Will and the consequences of those choices are the point and purpose of this life. We are to choose where we wish to spend eternity. Without "Sin and Evil" there is not point of been given this existence.


​

Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”

Because the Title or name of "God" has absolutely nothing to do with how Epicurus defines it.

what else you got?


​

 

[mmcneely]

I think you are being disingenuous.

Ok, now that we have name calling out of our system, perhaps we can get back to the discussion?

The point is, acceptance or rejection of the truths in the Bible is not because of clarity or the lack of it. It is a matter of choice and idolatry.

If I can direct your attention to post #54 where you say, "Many other atheists found His Bible to contain enough clarity to believe it true." If clarity is not the point, then why use it as an example?

The acceptance of any truth, Biblical or otherwise, should be based on clarity. If something cannot be supported by fact, it should not be accepted as truth.

Oh, I can answer them but you're not very receptive since you like to argue about things you have no understanding of. One who asks questions of those who are more knowledgeable in a particular subject are usually respectful and receptive. Take a look at some of your responses and see if you fit the bill; like your Pikachu comment.

You automatically assume that because I'm an atheist that I don't understand the Bible. You are very, very wrong. I ask these questions BECAUSE I understand the Bible. I am seeking answers. You seem upset because you cannot answer them.

 

[razeontherock]

The part your talking about in verse 48 says, "...and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes." Look it up, and maybe read the whole verse next time. All translations I have seen have the same message.

Don't pretend I'm the one here who doesn't know what it says. what do YOU suppose Jesus meant by "worthy of stripes?"

So, Jesus has already established his kingdom on earth? *Scanning History Books* When did that happen exactly?

Why do you suppose you could see it, when He specifically says you won't be able to unless you're born again?

Slavery is evil. There are no questions about it. If the only things God says about it support it then God is evil. There is no way around it.

Exactly where has G-d said or done anything to "support" the concept of what slavery is in YOUR mind? And what have you done to understand what is being said by the same term here? OT Judgments aren't left open for us to interpret you know; they were practiced for 1,000's of years, by people that were pretty fanatical about keeping records. What do you know about any of that?