Noah's Ark

[GrayAngel]

Would you rape a woman if you believed God told you to?

Excuse me, but what are you doing here anyway? Are you aware of the rule that only the OP is the only non-Christian allowed to reply in the Exploring Christianity forum? The Philosophy section is more geared for open debate.

 

[Kid A]

It seems as though this topic has gone way off track.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

God would not tell any of us to rape someone. The suggestion is perverse.

With respect, I didn't ask you. I asked the guy who wrote that. Maybe his answer will be different.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Excuse me, but what are you doing here anyway? Are you aware of the rule that only the OP is the only non-Christian allowed to reply in the Exploring Christianity forum? The Philosophy section is more geared for open debate.

It's quite interesting that nobody bothered with my presence in this thread until I asked this question. I think it just shows how morally disgusting your Bible is, and you know this, so you want to have me taken out of this thread. Did I make you squirm?

 

[GrayAngel]

It's quite interesting that nobody bothered with my presence in this thread until I asked this question. I think it just shows how morally disgusting your Bible is, and you know this, so you want to have me taken out of this thread. Did I make you squirm?

Actually, I just popped in here a few hours ago. I barely even noticed you before. This happens in nearly every thread, and it gets to be annoying.

I don't believe my Bible is disgusting. Matter of fact, it is my favorite book. I enjoy reading it. I'm also aware that God has never condoned rape, and He actually considered the crime worthy of death. No point in answering what I would do if God asked me to do such a thing, because I know that that would never happen.

 

[drich0150]

Would you rape a woman if you believed God told you to?

I know I am probably the worst person here, but i guess you don't know that. Even so What makes you think I haven't?

 

[razeontherock]

Mr Grumpy, Drich and I go back to my first posts on CF. You really don't know how funny that is ...

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I know I am probably the worst person here, but i guess you don't know that. Even so What makes you think I haven't?

OK, I think I'm done with this thread.

 

[drich0150]

OK, I think I'm done with this thread.

What happened? You can ask a shock value question, yet i am not allowed to provide a "shock value" reply? How does that not dip into hypocrisy?

 

[drich0150]

My Grumpy, Drich and I go back to my first posts on CF. You really don't know how funny that is ...

 

[Question.Everything]

God would not tell any of us to rape someone. The suggestion is perverse.

Hope this clears things up a little.

I'm sorry but it doesn't. The Bible is the WORD of GOD, he has ultimate say in what is finalized in his book. And in this book we have numerous testimonies of murder and rape. Here's one: Deuteronomy 20:10-14.

Christians would often sack cities in the "name of the Lord", and then "take wives as their own". I'm pretty sure when a random guy comes in, kills your husband, and takes you as a wife to have children with...the sex isn't consensual.

This is God's book, not man's. That is something I think should be respected by Christians. OT God = NT God.

and He actually considered the crime worthy of death.

True! He has the poor, innocent rape victim tortured to death, awesome! Deuteronomy 22:23-24

 

[mmcneely]

drich0150, your sense of morality is really skewed. You said you would murder, commit genocide, rape and own slaves just because God commanded you. That is just sick. You are the type of person that if you were born into Islam you would strap bombs to your chest, if you were born in 1480 Spain you would have burnt people at the stake, if you were born in Nazi Germany you would have been involved in the death of millions of Jews. You are impressionable and more easily controllable than I. You represent the type of person that takes religion from innocent "social club" to fanatical cult.

Pop culture is flawed... but even it would never condone the acts that you said you would partake in. Slavery is evil, and will always be evil. Racism is evil, and will always be evil. Sexism is evil, and will always be evil. Genocide is evil, and will always be evil. There is no excuse for these and the other acts you said you would do if God willed it. This is exactly why religion is evil, it's people like you. I hope you can change your mind about the things you have said here.

 

[drich0150]

drich0150, your sense of morality is really skewed. You said you would murder,

again, No. I Identified the difference between Murder and putting someone to death several times now. Murder is always wrong.

not to mention I Identified the flaw in your understanding of morality. So pardon me if I rejoice if you do not see me in the same "moral" light as you see yourself.

commit genocide, rape and own slaves just because God commanded you. That is just sick.

And putting babies to death so they can be harvested for T cell research.. What is that if not sick?

You are the type of person that if you were born into Islam you would strap bombs to your chest, if you were born in 1480 Spain you would have burnt people at the stake, if you were born in Nazi Germany you would have been involved in the death of millions of Jews.

What you have failed to acknowledge is the actually commands of Christ and how I have taken these command to their extreme end.. To love the Lord God with all of my Being and to love my neighbor as myself.

That said, To me it sounds as if you are projecting you newly found insecurities on to me. I have identified all of these qualities in great detail in your words and thoughts. and now somehow they have "magically" become my attributes with one paragraph of baseless conjecture.. Regroup and Try again.

You are impressionable and more easily controllable than I. You represent the type of person that takes religion from innocent "social club" to fanatical cult.

Thank you. If being a luke warm member of society is what pop culture demands then I am proud to be labeled a fanatic for Christ.

Pop culture is flawed... but even it would never condone the acts that you said you would partake in.

so in your opinion abortion is what?

Slavery is evil, and will always be evil.

said the slave.

Racism is evil, and will always be evil.

actually Racism is not even identified as a sin.

Sexism is evil,

neither is this

and will always be evil. Genocide is evil, and will always be evil.

nor this.

It appears you are simply making things up as you go along. all the while failing to acknowledge your own roots. You are either a fool or simply ignorant of the life you have inherited. Every prosperous nation in existence was established on the very same principles you have deemed "Evil." The first thing a nation of people must do is destroy all those who appose it (Genocide) like it or not we are here because we destroyed all of the natives except a few, even so entire nations of native Americans no longer exist.

Then a nation must build on or tame the land. Every nation (even modern ones) do this on the backs of slaves or what has been relabeled as the poor.

Racism or class distinction also serves a purpose in that it allows at a glance we are able to segregate potential threats in building a nation. the Jews did this with circumcision. this allows the founding fathers/leaders to keep those who do not have the same ideals out of a position of authority or leadership. Why? Because unity at the early stages of a nation is far more important that how that nation is judges by later generations.

What has been deemed as sexism is also a vital part of the construction of a people. In that we must full fill our God given roles so that we have a full and strong generation following the present one in order for us to continue on what has been built.

Whether you agree with any of this or not, the fact remains EVERY SINGAL NATION is Built on these principles. More so with the United States than the others. As such your life of privilege is due to all of the things you have deemed "evil." Because you happily benefit from all of this, that in turn makes you just as evil. Like a mob wife you are equally as guilty of all of the evil that has taken place as those to provide you with your life style. Simply identifying the "evil" in your husbands life does not separate you from his actions. If you wish to truly separate yourself from this nations sins then you must "divorce us" and find a nation who legacy is not built on the very same principles. (good luck)

There is no excuse for these and the other acts you said you would do if God willed it. This is exactly why religion is evil, it's people like you. I hope you can change your mind about the things you have said here.

as I have pointed out Even though I am willing to go through the depths of Hell for my God, He does not want that for me or "us." So I am indeed content in living with in the parameters He has set fourth. So you see their is no need for change because even with in the parameters of popular culture I am well with in it's bounds.

So the question is how far does your hypocrisy go? Are you willing to abandoned the nation that provides you a privileged life style bought in the same blood you have tried to paint on my hands? the very blood your pop morality has deemed "evil?" Or are you simply content trying to paint your guilt on those who are guiltless? How far does your hypocrisy go?

 

[razeontherock]

I'm sorry but it doesn't. The Bible is the WORD of GOD, he has ultimate say in what is finalized in his book. And in this book we have numerous testimonies of murder and rape. Here's one: Deuteronomy 20:10-14.

Christians would often sack cities in the "name of the Lord", and then "take wives as their own". I'm pretty sure when a random guy comes in, kills your husband, and takes you as a wife to have children with...the sex isn't consensual.

This is what is known as "doing violence to scripture." What makes you think you have any clue whatsoever what is being said here? What have you done to discover their customs, to know if there was non-consensual sex?

Nothing, obviously. None of this stuff is left undisclosed for us to have to guess about.

Next, there was no "random guy" coming in. That very passage commands them to start with offering a peace treaty. War only came about when they refused.

And Christians never did this! So lessee, that means that your every point is solidly refuted, and just plain wrong. Which means you have no point at all, but mere assumption.

True! He has the poor, innocent rape victim tortured to death, awesome! Deuteronomy 22:23-24

You haven't even read the text. She was no rape victim, she committed adultery with consent.

 

[mmcneely]

again, No. I Identified the difference between Murder and putting someone to death several times now. Murder is always wrong.

I don't care who you talk to. 99.9999% of people will agree that killing a baby is murder. Again, if you had a child you would understand this.

And putting babies to death so they can be harvested for T cell research.. What is that if not sick?

I have made it clear, several times, that I am against that. I believe the discussion here was about personal morals, not the morals of the masses. Don't confuse the two.

What you have failed to acknowledge is the actually commands of Christ and how I have taken these command to their extreme end.. To love the Lord God with all of my Being and to love my neighbor as myself.

I'm sure synonyms of love are going to be rape, genocide, murder, and slavers... oh wait, they aren't.

That said, To me it sounds as if you are projecting you newly found insecurities on to me. I have identified all of these qualities in great detail in your words and thoughts. and now somehow they have "magically" become my attributes with one paragraph of baseless conjecture.. Regroup and Try again.

You need to go back and read the post where you said you would do all of the horrible things we are talking about... particularly post 113.

Thank you. If being a luke warm member of society is what pop culture demands then I am proud to be labeled a fanatic for Christ.

I wouldn't even give you the compliment of being called a member of society. You should be an outcast. People like you don't deserve the Constitutional rights I fight for every day.

I'm sorry that your racist, sexist, homophobic, genocidal, jealous, murderous, child killing, slave condoning God doesn't define his core attributes as sin. They are sin. They are evil. And they are wrong. You can put whatever label you want on them, they are wrong. I mean, am I the only person here that thinks this way? Am I the only one here who thinks all of the above is pure evil?


I understand that America has done a lot of evil things in the past. Was I there? No. Could I have possibly stopped them from doing those things? No. I am here, now, in 2011. I can't go back in time and stop all of the injustices done.

I am over 50% native American, so I know what was done to us. I know that American soldiers raped, pillaged, and plundered the land we once owned. Was it right? No. Again, can I do anything about it? No. What's done is done, and the only thing we can do is move on from it.

The poor are not slaves... the poor are the poor. Do I have sympathy for them? Yes. Do I donate my time and money to help them? Yes. But they are not slaves.

Racism is not a class distinction. Racism is hate. Specifically hating someone because they are a different skin color than someone else. If you hate a man because he is white it does not matter if he is poor, middle class, or rich. You are hating him because of his skin color, and not because of his social status.

Sexism, is not a vital part of the construction of a nation. Sexism has been proven to be very helpful for the construction and development of any nation. There are physical differences between the genders, but a woman's thoughts and opinions are just as valid as a mans. For example, 99.999999% of women will say that killing a baby is evil... see, already a woman's opinion is better than yours.

As such your life of privilege is due to all of the things you have deemed "evil." Because you happily benefit from all of this, that in turn makes you just as evil.

If I were to agree with that, WHICH I DON'T, it doesn't matter if you happily benefit or not. If you benefit from it, you are evil... which would make you evil. Hmmmm...

Again, can I change the past? Nope. Would I if I could. Yes indeed. Just because I enjoy electricity, washing machines, the football games that are currently on, and AC doesn't make me evil. If we were to go by your reasoning, then mankind is doomed to be evil forever. I refuse to be judged by the "sins of my fathers"

I am not being hypocritical here. I never said I wanted to leave America. I am not condemning the country for it's past actions. Like humanity, morality has evolved over time. What once was common practice (slavery, objectifying of women, human sacrifice) is now considered evil. Purchasing a human being for manual labor and no pay is evil. Saying that women are inferior to men, and that they should know their role, is evil. The slaughter of humans in the name of a deity, is evil.

People like you will continue to slow the evolution of human morality because of your adherence to Bronze Age scribbling.

And raze, killing a person for adultery (consensual or not) is EVIL. I don't know if your married or not but if you are, put yourself in that position. Imagine that someone rapes your wife, if we go by the Bible then she is to be stoned to death. And before you give some crappy excuse that we are not under the law any more, remember: Matthew 5:17-20

 

[razeontherock]

And raze, killing a person for adultery (consensual or not) is EVIL.

So it clearly shows the consequences of an Israelite breaking their Covenant with G-d, doesn't it? that's what you're reading in this text, not the rest of the stuff your fanciful imagination has concluded.

I don't know if your married or not but if you are, put yourself in that position. Imagine that someone rapes your wife, if we go by the Bible then she is to be stoned to death.

Actually no. If you actually read the text, you'll find that in the scenario you mention, only the perp gets punished. Sorry you're having a hard time reading this; what version are you using?

 

[GrayAngel]

I'm sorry but it doesn't. The Bible is the WORD of GOD, he has ultimate say in what is finalized in his book. And in this book we have numerous testimonies of murder and rape. Here's one: Deuteronomy 20:10-14.

Christians would often sack cities in the "name of the Lord", and then "take wives as their own". I'm pretty sure when a random guy comes in, kills your husband, and takes you as a wife to have children with...the sex isn't consensual.

This is God's book, not man's. That is something I think should be respected by Christians. OT God = NT God.

You're preaching to me about the OT God = the NT God? That's rich.

What you're labeling as rape is not anything of the sort. First, the women were captives taken from a city destroyed in war. The fact that they're still alive is more than they could ask for. Second, they were not taken forcibly. They were offered a choice. Third, the women were allowed time to mourn, when no man was allowed to touch them. Fourth, the women were considered members of the Jewish family when they were taken, and they were given all the rights of Jewish citizens.

Also read chapter 21, verses 10-14:

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."

The woman was not raped. If she didn't want to be married, they were given their freedom. It just so happened, however, that it was better for a woman to be married and have a man to provide for you.

True! He has the poor, innocent rape victim tortured to death, awesome! Deuteronomy 22:23-24

You clearly didn't even read that verse. Look again. A woman who gives her consent is guilty of adultery. A woman who does not give her consent is guilty of nothing.

 

[mmcneely]

I am also done here.... it's repulsive to see such barbarism coming from "good" Christian people.

This is just one more reason I'm glad I left Christianity.

 

[GrayAngel]

I am also done here.... it's repulsive to see such barbarism coming from "good" Christian people.

This is just one more reason I'm glad I left Christianity.

O...k... Barbarism? I don't see any barbarism in here. But I do see a lot of attempts to misquote scripture to make it seem like God condones evil.

If this topic is becoming too difficult for you, though, feel free to stop and have this thread locked.

 

[drich0150]

I don't care who you talk to. 99.9999% of people will agree that killing a baby is murder. Again, if you had a child you would understand this.

So Abortion is murder? Then why is it the popular thing to do when the baby is not wanted?

I have made it clear, several times, that I am against that. I believe the discussion here was about personal morals, not the morals of the masses. Don't confuse the two.

How can you say that when you have openly admitted that your "morals" are dictated to you by pop culture?

I'm sure synonyms of love are going to be rape, genocide, murder, and slavers... oh wait, they aren't.

What are you even talking about? You have never even pointed to one Scripture in the Christian Doctrine that dictates any of these things are or have been commanded.

You need to go back and read the post where you said you would do all of the horrible things we are talking about... particularly post 113.

I know what I said, I also said that because we are told to not do these things then that is what I do. I also remember telling you that because we are told to love our lord God with all of our being and to love our neighbor as myself then this is the focus of my efforts.. But it is evident your need to win an argument supersedes the need for you to represent my position accurately.

what does that say about you, your character and your version of "morality?" It says it is all subjective to your current emotional state. That if you simply "Feel" bad about something you only look at the bad. How does this primal reaction differ from the actions of lower primates?

I wouldn't even give you the compliment of being called a member of society. You should be an outcast. People like you don't deserve the Constitutional rights I fight for every day.

Do you believe you are the only one who has served his country?

Are the rights you speak of only valid to those who would live their life as you would approve? See to me this says you were either in the rear with the gear, or that the limit of your service is with nation was with the confines of a post office. Because if you actually did any fighting you would know that what you were fighting against, was the very same attitude that you just displayed. Thank you for your service.

I'm sorry that your racist, sexist, homophobic, genocidal, jealous, murderous, child killing, slave condoning God doesn't define his core attributes as sin. They are sin.

who says you? who are you?

They are evil. And they are wrong.

again who says you?

You can put whatever label you want on them, they are wrong. I mean, am I the only person here that thinks this way? Am I the only one here who thinks all of the above is pure evil?

How do you define evil? is it tied to your emotions?

I understand that America has done a lot of evil things in the past. Was I there? No. Could I have possibly stopped them from doing those things? No. I am here, now, in 2011. I can't go back in time and stop all of the injustices done.

Yet you still enjoy a life style that is the direct result of everything you have just condemned. that is like being apart of the wall street protests and then driving home in the Bentley your portfolio paid for. You are enjoying a way of life that millions died and suffered to provide. How is this not from the deepest level of hypocrisy?

I am over 50% native American, so I know what was done to us. I know that American soldiers raped, pillaged, and plundered the land we once owned. Was it right? No. Again, can I do anything about it?

Yes. you can do what your "brothers" have done...

What's done is done, and the only thing we can do is move on from it.

apparently not all who share your blood line think in the same way.
If you don't know what i am speaking of do a google search.

The poor are not slaves...the poor are the poor. Do I have sympathy for them? Yes. Do I donate my time and money to help them? Yes.

apparently you have never been poor or spent any real time with them, trying to provide them with their basic needs. Because if you had then you would see the foolishness in this statement:

But they are not slaves.

Perhaps it would be better stated to say the "poor" are not slaves in the colonial north American sense of the term.

A slave is one who is bound, own or controlled by another. a slave's will is always superseded by the will of what or who he is bound to. The working poor and the non working, poor of this nation are indeed slaves, to the very society who is paying to be poor.

Racism is not a class distinction. Racism is hate.

Racism is not alway bound to the Idea of Hate. racism can simply mean discrimination or class distinction or so say the dictionary. (look it up before you speak it will save us time)

Specifically hating someone because they are a different skin color than someone else. If you hate a man because he is white it does not matter if he is poor, middle class, or rich. You are hating him because of his skin color, and not because of his social status.

please...

Sexism, is not a vital part of the construction of a nation. Sexism has been proven to be very helpful for the construction and development of any nation. There are physical differences between the genders, but a woman's thoughts and opinions are just as valid as a mans. For example, 99.999999% of women will say that killing a baby is evil... see, already a woman's opinion is better than yours.

You are really grasping at straws here. Show me one nation that had established itself as a power and had not embraced a "baby boomer" policy.. this can only happen if women are encouraged to full fill their God given roles.. Why do they do this? Why did we do this after WWII? What event would spawn the need for so many people? Why would a nation need so many young men after establishing itself as a power?

again how is this done.. Say it, say it.. It is done if Women are encouraged to have babies like god intended. Because if they don't who will? If no babies are born who will fight the next war? If their isn't anyone to fight for what we have established then we fall to those who wish to conquer us. and the process of genocide, slavery and sexism starts again but this time we are the one being killed and made into slaves..

If I were to agree with that, WHICH I DON'T, it doesn't matter if you happily benefit or not. If you benefit from it, you are evil... which would make you evil. Hmmmm...

ah, no.. Remember My God my "Morality" does not define any of these things as Evil. It is YOUR MORALITY based in pop culture, that tells you all of these things are evil.. Therefore I may live an evil free life enjoying the society that 1/2 of my forefathers built, and not be a self damning hypocrite.

You on the other hand have a zero tolerance policy on all of the things you have listed. Which make your participation in this society based in the "Evils" of slavery genocide race and sexism an affront to all you self righteously (and hypercritically) soap box about. You are the worst of the worst type of hypocrite. You are reveling and wallowing in everything you claim to hate the most. and then you have the nerve to condemn others based on your.. (I would say convictions, but your attitude says otherwise. So lets say:_) "loosely held but strongly convicted Beliefs."

Again, can I change the past? Nope. Would I if I could.

But you can indeed change what you do now, and if you really are 1/2 Indian then you have options others do not.

Yes indeed. Just because I enjoy electricity, washing machines, the football games that are currently on, and AC doesn't make me evil. If we were to go by your reasoning, then mankind is doomed to be evil forever. I refuse to be judged by the "sins of my fathers"

That is my point. What you deem as "sins" really aren't. they are only sins to the self absorbed. and since you are not willing to give up anything that brings you comfort, then I guess you are working with the correct "sin" list.

I see such a contrast. You who is not willing to change one part of his life for what He believes and me who is willing to go through Hell for my God... and your response? You sit back in your A/C between plays and try and arm chair quarter back our (Those with strong beliefs) lives into the same Luke warm existent you want to live.

Their are two types of people in this world. those who do, and those who watch others do. If you are content in watching others, then may I ask you simply go back to your football game and remain silent so as not to disturb any of the other "doers."

I am not being hypocritical here. I never said I wanted to leave America. I am not condemning the country for it's past actions. Like humanity, morality has evolved over time. What once was common practice (slavery, objectifying of women, human sacrifice) is now considered evil. Purchasing a human being for manual labor and no pay is evil. Saying that women are inferior to men, and that they should know their role, is evil. The slaughter of humans in the name of a deity, is evil.

Not even close.
What makes you think that we as a society can progress and evolve over time, and the fundamental in which that society was built on have not also evolved beyond their original definitions or how these "evils" originally presented themselves 200 years ago? Ask anyone who doesn't have the day off today about the state of slavery in modern America, or ask a woman who is still getting payed less than a man for doing the same job if sexism is still alive and well.. You know the thing about living with blinders on? It is that you will swallow every signal piece of propaganda that is sent your way if it is packaged correctly.

Get off you lazy butt and go out into your community and work in a soup kitchen or a homeless shelter for a time then tell me about how there aren't any modern day slaves or how this society does not push people down.

In order for their to be a upper class their must be a lower class for them to stand on. No one would willing choose to be in that lower class so they must be made to do so.. What is that if not slavery?
Now because slavery is alive and well shouldn't we have rules? The only reason to deny modern day slavery is not to subjugate the "Masters" to the Rules God has set fourth to govern slavery. What you are doing is keeping the powers that be in a position of unrestricted power. Why would you want this??? Oh that's right!! Because you are not willing to give up the life style you feel you are entitled to even if it means keeping people under you (current day) as the forefathers did.

People like you will continue to slow the evolution of human morality because of your adherence to Bronze Age scribbling.

and people like you can't think for themselves unless they are told what to think. you have parroted back every self righteous cliché that pop culture has set into motion. you have not shown one instance of independent thought apart from what popular culture has programed into you.

And raze, killing a person for adultery (consensual or not) is EVIL. I don't know if your married or not but if you are, put yourself in that position. Imagine that someone rapes your wife, if we go by the Bible then she is to be stoned to death. And before you give some crappy excuse that we are not under the law any more, remember: Matthew 5:17-20

I would have thought that you learned your lesson the last time you took scripture out of it's proper context.

Mathew 5 can not be dissected like what you have done here. Look at the whole chapter to see the picture Christ was painting. In Matthew 5 Christ in one sermon made it impossible for anyone to obtain righteousness by trying to adhere to the Law. Which means the "righteousness" He is speaking of in your highlighted text must come from outside of the law.