No women preachers? An exegetical case from 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2

Kilk1 · Mar 8, 2021

SkyWriting said:
The passages were written for infant churches with no New Testament.
They followed the rules of the times they were written.
Paul mentions that he is making this advice in accord with the Law.
(What law? Nobody knows.)
Following local Law is of primary importance. Jesus mentioned this twice in His last days.

Local law prohibits discrimination based on gender.
That should be followed by churches.
It's disgusting that churches take advantage of special leniency
so that they can illegally discriminate based on gender.
But that's male leadership for you. The year is 2021.
In 1920 A.D. (white) women were allowed to vote for the first time.

Doesn't it seem that the law is what's taught in Genesis, especially given that this is what Paul references in 1 Timothy 2? In 1 Corinthians 14, he says the law "also says" this, which I take to reference them needing to "be submissive," not necessarily to not speak in church, as I don't know any law that mentions church specifically. All that Paul commands here are said to be the "commandments of the Lord" in 1 Corinthians 14:37, so I'd be careful not to dismiss Paul's instructions as mere advice.

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2 might be viable, so I'll have to think more about it. As for 1 Corinthians 11:5, you said "that Paul clearly allowed women to speak in church" here. It does clearly allow women to speak, but it's not as clear that this was "in church," as I don't see that phrase in the text.

The generally accepted interpretation is that it was in church and that Paul was referring to the discord caused by different people speaking out at will, but that has nothing to do with the issue of women as preachers (i.e. ministers, pastors). That's also clear, as the rest of your post went on to explain.

Kilk1 · Mar 8, 2021

Strong in Him said:
If you want an exegetical study of 1 Corinthians 14 you have to start at least at the beginning of the chapter and not with a few verses from the end in fact, preferably start at chapter 11.

Paul has been addressing the fact that there were divisions in the Corinthian church - this is actually first seen in chapter 3.
In chapter 11 he addresses something else that was causing division; their behaviour at the Lord's supper. He says that they should not all eat and drink independently so that some get drunk and others go hungry, but should respect one another. In chapter 12 he takes this further - they are all the body of Christ. Each may have a different role, or different gifts, but they all need one another. Jesus is the head, and it is his Spirit who gives gifts to each. Chapter 13 is the famous chapter on love; love which is patient, kind, not boastful or proud and without which their service and worship are pointless. Chapter 14 seems to be a continuation of the last verses of chapter 12. Some Corinthians had the gift of tongues and it seems they were rather proud of having these dramatic gifts - so much so that they were boasting about having the gift and misusing it in worship - not letting anyone else speak or speaking over the top of them. Paul tells them that they need to have order in worship - no more than 2 or 3 people speaking in tongues and they must wait for an interpretation to be given, Similarly with prophesies - only 2 or 3 to be given and if someone sitting down receives a word, the speaker must stop and let them speak.
All this because God is the head of the church, the giver of the gifts and is a God of order.

This is the background against which the passage is written. And having said all this, Paul then turns his attention to women who it seems were talking in the services. Note, in none of the previous chapters has he said that women will not be given gifts of prophesy or teaching, or forbidden from speaking in tongues.
We know that some of them were talking in the services because Paul says "if they want to enquire about something they should ask their husbands at home", 1 Corinthians 14:35. Why would he have needed to say that unless women were calling out and/or asking questions of the nearest available man? Order, remember? The women had husbands and they were to be submissive and ask them the answer to their questions at home, privately. Such behaviour does indeed undermine the authority of the person preaching/teaching.

He concludes that they should all be eager to prophesy - indeed, in chapter 11 he has already said that women need to prophesy with their heads covered. During his travels, Paul stayed with Philip who had 4 daughters, all of whom prophesied. He is not against women doing this, and to prophesy, you need to speak.

What law?
I'm not aware of an OT law which says that women couldn't speak in worship - but anyway, Paul spends time in his letters explaining that his readers are not under the law.

Yes, it would rule out women preachers - it would also rule out women prophesying, reading the Scriptures, giving testimony to God's goodness, praying or saying "Amen" to prayers and even singing.
In other words, women either stay totally silent, play no part in worship and are disobeying if they worship God, or those verses mean something else.
In debates on this subject I've seen people who want it both ways - "women can't preach because they have to remain silent; oh but they can worship God" (which involves speaking.)

WE are the church.
We don't have to go into a church building to be and do church; if a group of Christians are meeting in a coffee shop/in school/on the beach to fellowship and study Scripture, they are the church in that place. There are large Christian events that take place in halls or tents and dozens of beach missions each year they don't worship God in a huge marquee but only become church when they get back to their buildings. Christians on beach missions are church and are taking church out to people. They don't become church when they go into a certain building - God is with them on the beach just as much as he is when they are sitting in pews and looking at stained glass windows.

(Will look at 1 Tim tomorrow, if time; I need sleep.)

I agree that the main point of 1 Corinthians 11-14 is to promote order, and I also agree that one of the instructions to meet this end addressed women asking questions. That said, considering that "speak" and "keep silent" mean "address the assembly" and "not address the assembly" respectively in the verses immediately before 34-35, does it seem that a more natural interpretation is that Paul's forbidding women from addressing the assembly, and then in verse 35, clarifies that this applies even if they have a question? "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35, NKJV, emphasis mine).

In a nutshell: 1] Tongue-speakers can "speak" in church, but if there's no interpreter, they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). 2] Prophets can "speak" in church, but if something's revealed to one who sits by, the first should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:29-30). 3] It's shameful for women to "speak" in church, and they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35). Doesn't it appear that "speak" and "keep silent" mean "address the assembly" and "not address the assembly" here? And isn't it the case that the first two groups are given qualified restrictions to speaking, while the third has an unqualified prohibition?

HIM · Mar 8, 2021

Albion said:
It deserves to be lost because it doesn't address the issue. We are here talking about whether or not women as pastors is God's plan. Our friend's post is entirely about wrongful ways that that people who are in authority in the churches can behave. They're two different subjects and the poster obviously has a personal interest in the second of these.

In your opinion

Albion · Mar 8, 2021

HIM said:
In your opinion

Oh, no. It's not just my opinion. For whoever might care to have the information, I was relaying what is the customary view among Bible students. I get that it's not your own, but that was already known.

Leaf473 · Mar 8, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Hello!

1 Corinthians 14
It seems the point of 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 is that if someone speaks (2980 laleo) in tongues, they shouldn't address an assembly that doesn't know the language unless there's one to interpret. Instead, they should "keep silent" (4601 sigao) in church. Likewise, the point of 1 Corinthians 14:29-30 is that two or three prophets should speak (2980 laleo), but if something is revealed to someone else, the first speaker should not address the assembly but should "keep silent" (4601 sigao) so that this new speaker can do so instead.

In the first two cases, the subjects addressed (tongue-speakers and prophets) could speak in church but had to "keep silent" under certain circumstances. However, when Paul gets to the third subject, the women, there are no qualifiers given. Instead, he writes in 1 Corinthians 14:34, "Let your women keep silent [4601 sigao] in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak [2980 laleo]; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says." Paul then goes on to add in 1 Corinthians 15:35: "And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak [2980 laleo] in church."

Naturally, wouldn't "speak" (2980 laleo) and "keep silent" (4601 sigao) mean the same in verses 34-35 that the terms mean elsewhere in the chapter, i.e., addressing the assembly versus not addressing the assembly, respectively? If so, Paul would seem to rule out women preachers here, as they would not be permitted to address the church assembly. (Note: There's a specific context to this passage, "in church" [vv. 26, 28, 34-35, etc.], so this certainly can't forbid women from teaching in other contexts, such as when Priscilla and her husband Aquila taught Apollos [Acts of the Apostles 18:26].)

1 Timothy 2
Another passage is 1 Timothy 2:11-12, which says, "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." I know there's debate over the context of this passage. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but the context would seem to be either about church (since the chapter before and the chapter after are discussing the church) or, if 1 Timothy 2:8 is an indicator, the context would apply "everywhere." Either way, this would preclude a woman from being a preacher in church.

Above is my current train of thought. Let me know if there are any holes in it. Thanks!

In your view, how would this apply to women praying in the assembly or praising, maybe singing a solo?

(All are welcome to reply )

Gregorikos · Mar 8, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Doesn't it seem that the law is what's taught in Genesis, especially given that this is what Paul references in 1 Timothy 2? In 1 Corinthians 14, he says the law "also says" this, which I take to reference them needing to "be submissive," not necessarily to not speak in church, as I don't know any law that mentions church specifically. All that Paul commands here are said to be the "commandments of the Lord" in 1 Corinthians 14:37, so I'd be careful not to dismiss Paul's instructions as mere advice.

Genesis..... where? 3:16? That hardly fits. It says nothing about the woman being silent, nor about the woman being subordinate. It says he will rule over her, but it doesn't tell her to submit herself. She isn't commanded to do anything in 3:16.

This is one of the problems of 1 Corinthians 14:34f- there is no reference in the Law of Moses to what Paul was saying. Such a statement exists in the Talmud, but it would be out of character for Paul to reference that. Some have suggested that this is one of the places Paul was quoting back to the Corinthians something they had written to him.

Gregorikos · Mar 8, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Your interpretation of 1 Timothy 2 might be viable, so I'll have to think more about it.

Grammatically it's absolutely possible. It's a wonder that more Bible versions don't include that in the footnotes. (The NIV and NRSV do)

The passage is translated that way in the first English translation ever- Wycliffe's 1382 edition, Young's Literal Translation (1862), the Literal Standard Version (2020), C. B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People (1937), Max Zerwick, A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. 4th Revised Edition, The William Godbey New Testament (1911)

Martin Luther understood the passage that way. (Luther’s Works, Vol 28 on 1 Cor 7, 1 Cor 15, and Lectures on 1 Timothy. (1973) P 276.)

It makes sense of the interpretive problem of 2:15, and the switch from plural in verses 8-10 to singular in 2:11-15. It seems to me to be the most logical option by far.

As for 1 Corinthians 11:5, you said "that Paul clearly allowed women to speak in church" here. It does clearly allow women to speak, but it's not as clear that this was "in church," as I don't see that phrase in the text.

Albion correctly pointed out that historically this passage has been nearly universally viewed as speaking of the church assembly. Otherwise is she to wear a veil when she prays or prophesies at home?
And to whom is she prophesying?

It is in the church. And that statement therefore constrains our understanding of 14:34f.

Strong in Him · Mar 8, 2021

In-Christ-Alone said:
You left out some very important verses in your arguments

I didn't ignore them; I was short of time and chose to leave them for another day.

In-Christ-Alone said:
1. "For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." (1 Timothy 2:13-14)

And?
Being created first does not indicate either superiority or authority. God created birds before humans, by that reasoning, a parrot would have more authority and right to preach than a man.
Yes, Eve was deceived - whereas Adam was deliberately disobedient.
He had received a direct word from God - Eve had not been created at that point - and disobeyed it. If a woman can't preach because Eve was deceived, why should a man preach after Adam's disobedience? I don't know about you but I don't want a Minister/Vicar/Pastor who KNOWS what God wants them to do, does the opposite and probably leads the whole congregation into sin.

In-Christ-Alone said:
2 "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God...

A HUSBAND is not the same as a MINISTER.
A Minister/vicar is called by God to be ordained and have pastoral care for a church; a calling, yes, but also a paid job. Ministers can move on to another church/profession, be asked to leave, resign or retire - my husband can only do that through divorce, or death. Ministers, good Ministers anyway, do not control their congregations - a lot of things happen in a person's life which are none of the Minister's business. They do not get to say where, or if, I work, where I live, how much money I give to the church, whether or not I have children etc etc - I would expect my husband to have a say in all those things, and might not be able to do some of them without his support.

In-Christ-Alone said:
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.

Maybe you can explain that to me then, as I don't understand it - and then write to all bishops and the Pope and tell them they are sinning when they wear mitres.

In-Christ-Alone said:
For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man" (1 Corinthians 11:3, 7-8)

Woman was created to be man's companion; not his slave, or because he needed someone to dominate.

In-Christ-Alone said:
2. "For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.

a) on one occasion Sarah told Abraham what to do, and God told him to listen to her, Genesis 21:12. Earlier Sarah suggested Abraham sleep with her slave girl and he listened and did just that, Genesis 16:2.

In-Christ-Alone said:
And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." (1 Peter 3:5-7)

A husband is not a Minister.

In-Christ-Alone said:
All of this is 100% true today as it was when written by God the Holy Spirit. Clearly showing the "subordination" of the female race to the male.

So why did God appoint Deborah to be judge over all Israel?
Why did male priests choose to consult a prophetess and the king chose to listen? The result of her word from the Lord was not punishment for Israel - the king destroyed false gods and Israel turned back to the Lord.
Why did Jesus commend a woman for anointing him before his death, and say that that action would be told forever as a testament to her?
Why did he choose to appear first to a woman after the resurrection, instead of the "superior" men? Moreover, why did he ask her to go into this room full of men and tell them the Good News? He could have appeared to them first, and directly, but he, God, didn't.

In-Christ-Alone said:
Man, the Bible says alone is created in "the image and glory of God"; whereas "woman is the glory of man".

Genesis 1:26-27 says God created people in his image; male and female he created them.
Jesus referred to this in Mark 10:6.

In-Christ-Alone said:
It is that the "glory" of God "reflects" on the male, and "deflects" from the male on the female.

Not Scriptural.

In-Christ-Alone said:
Women, we are also told, were created "for the man", and his "helper" (Genesis 2:18).

And?
The Holy Spirit is our helper too; same word used, and the word for Spirit is feminine. Is the Spirit "subordinate" to men?

In-Christ-Alone said:
As I have said, regardless of modern, anti Bible "standards" in this evil world, THE Word of God, Which is unchanging, stands firm!

None of what you have just written even says, never mind commands, that women cannot be ordained or be allowed to preach God's word.

Strong in Him · Mar 8, 2021

atpollard said:
Where does God call ANYONE to be "ordained" (man or woman)?
And if you fond an a scriptural "ordination" (defining it for me), then are there scriptural examples of both men and women being ordained?

I am simply attempting to separate what is verifiable by scripture from what is personal opinion. You made a good argument for the flow of 1 Corinthians 11-14, so I wondered if you had equally strong support for your emphatic statement on being called to be ordained.

I didn't say I was ordained; I said I was called to preach the Gospel.
"Preacher" does not automatically mean "ordained Minister."

Kilk1 · Mar 11, 2021

Gregorikos said:
Genesis..... where? 3:16? That hardly fits. It says nothing about the woman being silent, nor about the woman being subordinate. It says he will rule over her, but it doesn't tell her to submit herself. She isn't commanded to do anything in 3:16.

This is one of the problems of 1 Corinthians 14:34f- there is no reference in the Law of Moses to what Paul was saying. Such a statement exists in the Talmud, but it would be out of character for Paul to reference that. Some have suggested that this is one of the places Paul was quoting back to the Corinthians something they had written to him.

Gregorikos said:
Grammatically it's absolutely possible. It's a wonder that more Bible versions don't include that in the footnotes. (The NIV and NRSV do)

The passage is translated that way in the first English translation ever- Wycliffe's 1382 edition, Young's Literal Translation (1862), the Literal Standard Version (2020), C. B. Williams, The New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People (1937), Max Zerwick, A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament. 4th Revised Edition, The William Godbey New Testament (1911)

Martin Luther understood the passage that way. (Luther’s Works, Vol 28 on 1 Cor 7, 1 Cor 15, and Lectures on 1 Timothy. (1973) P 276.)

It makes sense of the interpretive problem of 2:15, and the switch from plural in verses 8-10 to singular in 2:11-15. It seems to me to be the most logical option by far.

Albion correctly pointed out that historically this passage has been nearly universally viewed as speaking of the church assembly. Otherwise is she to wear a veil when she prays or prophesies at home?
And to whom is she prophesying?

It is in the church. And that statement therefore constrains our understanding of 14:34f.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think church is the only place where prophesying occurred, right? If so, couldn't 1 Corinthians 11 apply in general? I recall hearing that pagan women would uncover themselves when prophesying, and that Paul seems to be going against women praying or prophesying with their heads uncovered. That said, I'm interested in hearing the historical case. What we absolutely know is that chapter 14 is "in church," and doesn't the context show that "speak" and "keep silent" refer to addressing the assembly versus not doing so?

After seeing some of your arguments for 1 Timothy 2, I must admit that it isn't merely a 20th-21st Century interpretation but something that predates the women's rights movement, so that adds credibility. I'll need to consider it more to decide myself, though, but I do see where you're coming from.

Paidiske · Mar 11, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think church is the only place where prophesying occurred, right? If so, couldn't 1 Corinthians 11 apply in general?

For Christians, while early practise probably varied a bit, there certainly was an expectation in some communities that prophecy belonged within the worship assembly. We see this, for example, in the Shepherd of Hermas, where prophets who exercise their gift in private are condemned, but there is an expectation that the gift ought to be exercised under the oversight of the community.

Strong in Him · Mar 12, 2021

Kilk1 said:
In a nutshell: 1] Tongue-speakers can "speak" in church, but if there's no interpreter, they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:27-28). 2] Prophets can "speak" in church, but if something's revealed to one who sits by, the first should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:29-30). 3] It's shameful for women to "speak" in church, and they should "keep silent" (1 Corinthians 14:34-35). Doesn't it appear that "speak" and "keep silent" mean "address the assembly" and "not address the assembly" here?

Not to me. I think Paul was intelligent enough to have written "women should never address the assembly" if that is what he had meant.

Paul did not say that women cannot prophesy; in fact in 1 Corinthians 11:5 he instructs them how to prophesy - i.e with their heads covered. In this chapter he writes how those who have a word of prophecy should give in in an orderly way, only one or two at a time and if anyone who is seated receives a word while a prophecy is being given, the speaker must sit down and let them speak.
There is no indication that prophesy was only for the men; that women could never receive words of prophesy. And to give a word of prophecy, they would have had to address the assembly.

Kilk1 · Mar 15, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Not to me. I think Paul was intelligent enough to have written "women should never address the assembly" if that is what he had meant.

Paul did not say that women cannot prophesy; in fact in 1 Corinthians 11:5 he instructs them how to prophesy - i.e with their heads covered. In this chapter he writes how those who have a word of prophecy should give in in an orderly way, only one or two at a time and if anyone who is seated receives a word while a prophecy is being given, the speaker must sit down and let them speak.
There is no indication that prophesy was only for the men; that women could never receive words of prophesy. And to give a word of prophecy, they would have had to address the assembly.

Paul could've written, "women should never address the assembly," but doesn't "it is shameful for women to speak in church" (1 Corinthians 14:35) seem nearly synonymous? What does "speak" mean elsewhere in the chapter, for example, in 1 Corinthians 14:27-29?

1 Corinthians 11 definitely allows women to prophesy in some sense. Could it be outside the church assembly? Is it an exception to 14:34-35 (or vice versa)? Either way, 14:34-35 means something, and it seems to be forbidding women from addressing the assembly (how "speak" is used elsewhere in the chapter), instead telling them to "keep silent" (used elsewhere in the chapter to refer to not addressing the assembly). I'm not sure how to more naturally understand what "speak" and "keep silent" means in the chapter.

Strong in Him · Mar 15, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Paul could've written, "women should never address the assembly," but doesn't "it is shameful for women to speak in church" (1 Corinthians 14:35) seem nearly synonymous?

That's the problem.
The first of those statements is clear - women should never address the assembly means that when people are gathered together to listen to a speaker/preacher, that speaker/preacher should never be a woman.
The second of those statements is ambiguous - it is shameful for women to speak in church could just mean that they are asking questions in the service, which interrupts the speaker, whereas they should wait and ask their husbands at home. It could mean it is shameful for them to natter among themselves - particularly if the meeting was along the same lines as the Synagogue, with men seated together and women sitting in the gallery, or separately.

Kilk1 said:
1 Corinthians 11 definitely allows women to prophesy in some sense. Could it be outside the church assembly?

The church is the people; believers. In those days they met in homes, Acts of the Apostles 12:3, Romans 16:5. Would a woman have brought a word from God to anyone outside of these settings? I don't know - but they seemed to in the OT, Judges 4:5.

Kilk1 said:
Either way, 14:34-35 means something,

1 Corinthians 14:35 explains what it means.
"If they want to enquire about anything they should ask their own husbands at home".
That suggests to me that women were hearing someone speak/preach, not understanding what they meant, because women were not allowed to have an education, and asking questions in the service - what's more, asking any man who was closest to them, rather than waiting til they got home and asking their husbands to explain it to them.
Why would Paul have said that otherwise?
It's like a vicar taking a wedding/funeral/church service and saying, "Please switch your mobile phones off" - either they are being disturbed in the service by phones which are ringing, or they know that that might happen and are anticipating it.

Kilk1 said:
and it seems to be forbidding women from addressing the assembly

SEEMS to be; but if Scripture says elsewhere that women are allowed to teach/prophecy, then it can't mean that, or Scripture would be contradicting itself.

Kilk1 said:
(how "speak" is used elsewhere in the chapter), instead telling them to "keep silent" (used elsewhere in the chapter to refer to not addressing the assembly). I'm not sure how to more naturally understand what "speak" and "keep silent" means in the chapter.

So if there's ambiguity and it seems that something is being taught - look at the rest of Scripture. Were there any occasions when women spoke, or gave God's word, to a group of people?
How about Judges 4:4-5 where Deborah used to hold court and sort out the Israelites disputes, and she was also a prophetess? Or 2 Kings 22:14 where some male priests chose to go to a female prophet? Or John 4, where the Samaritan woman went back to her own town and told the men that she had found the Messiah? Or after the resurrection when the Lord told Mary Magdalene to tell his disciples (who were in hiding) that he was risen and was going to Jerusalem, where he would meet them? Or Rhoda, in Acts of the Apostles 12:14-15 who told the believers, who were gathered in Mary's house, that Peter was free from prison?
If women were able to proclaim the word of the Lord to, or within, groups of people, and we know they were allowed to prophesy - why is it difficult to believe that they could have stood up in a gathering of believers to bring a word from the Lord?

KingsK.H.R.R.S · Mar 15, 2021

Abraxos said:
In regards to 1 Cor. 14:34-35, there are several Greek theologians who have come to designate vs. 34-35 as an interpolation. That means that they are a quote from someone else's words, and if you ask me, this suggestion of subordination read in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 isn't the words of Paul, but it is a quote from a letter received from the Corinthian church. It's likely verses 34-35 came from the Talmudic law, and not of Paul since he promoted women in ministry, honoured and acknowledged their service in the Lord. It is likely though that there were Jewish Christians who still thought that way, hence Paul's rebuke in vs. 36.
The legalistic connotation of the "Law" stated in verse 34, "It is not permitted... as also saith the law," is nowhere to be found in the OT. It was however a common practice in Jewish synagogues where women were not allowed to speak.

Mishnah sotah 3.4; B sotah 20a:
"Out of respect to the congregation, a woman should not herself read in the law. It is a shame for a woman to let her voice be heard among men. The voice of a woman is filthy nakedness."

J. Lee Grady said this about it:
"It should be noted that the Jewish Talmud is a collection of comments by rabbis who disagree, and the statement here about the "obscenity" of teaching women the law of God is challenged. However, many scholars of early Jewish thought believe the quote here represents the prevalent opinion of rabbis in the first century. Women were not allowed to study the Torah or to become disciples of rabbis."

So, the Law being referred to is most likely the Jewish Oral Law, the same one Jesus spoke against with his Sermon on the Mount on the contrasts of their "law" adjacent to the written word of Scripture. In other words, 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 has been terribly mistranslated.

Some handy references:
God's Word To Women by Katharine C. Bushnell
Let Women Speak In Church by David W. Odell-Scott
Did Paul Put Down Women In 1 Cor 14:34-36? by N.M. Flanagan

I was going to post exactly this. Scholars like Lucy Peppiatt and others are coming to the conclusion more and more that Paul is refuting a quote from his opponents. Koine Greek didn't have quotation marks. Also, What we know as 1 Corinthians is actually the 2nd letter Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, so there is A LOT of context that we just don't have for 1 Corinthians. It's kind of a stretch to take a questionable/controversial verse from Paul in a letter that we don't have all the context which just "sounds" so different than Paul as a whole and make an entire theological position out of it.

KingsK.H.R.R.S · Mar 15, 2021

Kilk1 said:
1 Timothy 2
Another passage is 1 Timothy 2:11-12, which says, "Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence." I know there's debate over the context of this passage. Correct me if I'm wrong, though, but the context would seem to be either about church (since the chapter before and the chapter after are discussing the church) or, if 1 Timothy 2:8 is an indicator, the context would apply "everywhere." Either way, this would preclude a woman from being a preacher in church.

Above is my current train of thought. Let me know if there are any holes in it. Thanks!

With 1 Timothy 2, I think the main issue is that the English translations don't express the difficulty in translating "authority". That word, in Greek, is αὐθεντεῖν (authentein), which is not the normal word for authority in the New Testament, ἐξουσίαν (exousia). Authentien is only used in this spot IN THE ENTIRE GREEK BIBLE (Septuagint translation and original Greek NT).

It is used a few times in extra-biblical greek sources, and the Deuterocanonical/Apocryphal book Wisdom of Solomon uses it once. Here is the passage: “And also those merciless murderers of children, and devourers of man’s flesh, and the feasts of blood, with their priests out of the midst of their idolatrous crew, and the parents, that killed with their own hands souls destitute of help” (Wisdom of Solomon 12:5-6).

Can you tell which is authentien (in this case “authentas goneis” due to greek conjugation)? It's "killed with their own hands". So, this should change how you see 1 Timothy 2:12. Paul uses an extremely rare Greek word that is NOT the normal word for authority as we know of it in English. In fact he uses a word that expresses extreme violence.

Some context: Paul wrote this letter to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Do you know what else was in Ephesus? One of the ancient wonders of the world, the Temple of Artemis. Remember in Acts, the riot Paul caused where the crowd yelled "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!!!". That's this place. The temple was run predominantly by women priestesses, who would have sex with followers as acts of worship. I'm sure it wasn't soft, loving sex, but ritualistic and possibly violent. Paul does NOT allow women (or maybe one or a few specific women.....ex-Artemis priestesses converted to Christ but bringing their practices with them???) to "AUTHENTIEN" a man. Sounds like Paul is clarifying some false teachings about women and men in relationship to creation, we will never know but sounds like Paul is putting to end specific practices in this specific location.

KingsK.H.R.R.S · Mar 15, 2021

One thing that I always see missing from these discussions is the overall narrative arc of Scripture. It's all proof-texting verses to try to make a theological slam dunk, but the actual story is missing.

In Genesis God creates Adam (humanity) and tells him to be fruitful and multiply. But how can a man by himself fulfil God's command? He can't, so God gives him a woman, who is like him but different. NOW they can get to work expanding the Garden of Eden on Earth in partnership with God. This is the ideal. Eve and Adam disobey God with the Tree of Good and Bad and are Exiled. God curses Man to till the Earth and Women that childbirth will hurt and that her desire will be for the Man and he will rule over her. THIS is NOT the ideal. The whole Biblical story is trying to get humans back into the Garden.

Jesus comes proclaiming that the Kingdom of God is here NOW through HIM. Paul says that with the resurrection of Christ we are all New Creations, already but not yet in the Kingdom of God. Not yet because Christ hasn't returned, already because we can do Kingdom work NOW as we wait, Jesus is restoring us to right relationship with God NOW. If this is true, and if you truly believe that Jesus' Kingdom is on Earth NOW, then we who claim to follow King Jesus are back in the Garden, therefore the curse is lifted, Jesus took the curse on the cross. Therefore Men and Women are united again to bring the Garden to Earth. Therefore women can be filled with the Spirit for any ministry a man can.

Gregorikos · Mar 15, 2021

Kilk1 said:
Either way, 14:34-35 means something, and it seems to be forbidding women from addressing the assembly (how "speak" is used elsewhere in the chapter), instead telling them to "keep silent" (used elsewhere in the chapter to refer to not addressing the assembly). I'm not sure how to more naturally understand what "speak" and "keep silent" means in the chapter.

No because in each case, v28, 30, and 34-35, Paul was addressing a problem. What's the problem with women in context? Women addressing the assembly? No... the problem is women asking questions. Together, the three fit with the overall context of ORDER in the assembly. (v 40)

No women preachers? An exegetical case from 1 Corinthians 11 and 1 Timothy 2

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