No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?

[gmm4j]

What's the difference in a person before and after regeneration?

Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God. And again...

Regeneration is the beginning (birth) into a new eternal spiritual life as a child of God.

Would you like to make him a born again child of God before he has been justified by faith? I, for one, have never seen any of God's children born of the Spirit, condemned and under wrath, have you?

 

[Hammster]

Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God. And again...

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Romans 8:5-9 ESV)

 

[gmm4j]

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Romans 8:5-9 ESV)

I agree.

Rom 8:10-11
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.


Faith
Righteousness
Alive

 

[Hammster]

I agree.

No, it contradicts this:

"Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God."

 

[gmm4j]

No, it contradicts this:

"Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God."

Rom 8:10-11
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Faith
Righteousness
Alive

 

[gmm4j]

No, it contradicts this:

"Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God."

How does it contradict? I see none.

 

[Hammster]

How does it contradict? I see none.

The only way to be in the Spirit is to have the Spirit in you.

 

[gmm4j]

The only way to be in the Spirit is to have the Spirit in you.

Ya? How does that contradict what I said?

"Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God."

Rom 8:10-11
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Faith
Righteousness
Alive

 

[Hammster]

Ya? How does that contradict what I said?

"Prior to regeneration he doesn't have the Spirit, he does not have eternal life, and he is not a child of God."

Rom 8:10-11
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Faith
Righteousness
Alive

Your conclusion, once again, is faulty. We aren't made alive because when we get His righteousness.

and those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8 NASB)

We can't even have faith while in the flesh.

 

[crimsonleaf]

In fact, where we do have any faith it is assigned by God, not claimed by man:

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. (Rom 12:3)

And before trying the ol' prevenient grace trick, note to whom Paul was talking.

 

[gmm4j]

We aren't made alive because when we get His righteousness.

Let's compare. Who should we believe.

Rom 8:10-11
yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

[gmm4j]

In fact, where we do have any faith it is assigned by God, not claimed by man:

For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. (Rom 12:3)

And before trying the ol' prevenient grace trick, note to whom Paul was talking.

That's right, look at who Paul is talking to and what he is talking about. And, do you think faith is static? If not, by what means does it grow and/or, decrease?

 

[Hammster]

Let's compare. Who should we believe.

Rom 8:10-11
yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

It does not say your spirit became alive because His righteousness is now in you because you believed in Him.

 

[gmm4j]

It does not say your spirit became alive because His righteousness is now in you because you believed in Him.

Can you have an unrighteous reborn spirit?

 

[Hammster]

Can you have an unrighteous reborn spirit?

No. The righteousness (foreign at that) is imputed (credited) to us after regeneration, not before.

 

[gmm4j]

No. The righteousness (foreign at that) is imputed (credited) to us after regeneration, not before.

If righteousness is not imputed until after regeneration and faith, then you have:

1. regeneration while unrighteous (unrighteous child of God)
2. faith produced while regenerated but unrighteous
3. righteousness imputed by faith (regenerated, faith produced, and righteousness imputed)

 

[crimsonleaf]

That's right, look at who Paul is talking to and what he is talking about. And, do you think faith is static? If not, by what means does it grow and/or, decrease?

My point is rather "from whence came this faith?"

Where do you think it came from? God, or unregenerate, dead-in-his-sins man.

Does God give faith?

 

[Hammster]

If righteousness is not imputed until after regeneration and faith, then you have:

1. regeneration while unrighteous (unrighteous child of God)

Even in your view you have regeneration while unrighteous.

2. faith produced while regenerated but unrighteous

Even in your view you have faith produced while unrighteous.

3. righteousness imputed by faith (regenerated, faith produced, and righteousness imputed)

Justification is by faith. Imputed righteousness is part of justification.

 

[gmm4j]

Even in your view you have regeneration while unrighteous.
Even in your view you have faith produced while unrighteous.

Justification is by faith. Imputed righteousness is part of justification.

That is not my view. I was stating the ramifications of your view. My view is:

1. Faith produced while unrighteous. (by the Word)
2. Imputed righteousness.
3. The righteous regenerated (Righteous children of God)

 

[gmm4j]

My point is rather "from whence came this faith?"

Where do you think it came from? God, or unregenerate, dead-in-his-sins man.

Does God give faith?

God gives faith, but how He does this must be discussed. Does He directly twist your will by His Spirit against your will to believe something you don't want to believe? Does He use secondary means? Does He use these secondary means to influence your will? Can the means be resisted? Why are different means recorded in Scripture and some more dramatic than others?

The most basic way He gives faith is by giving us something to believe in. Gal 3:23-25
Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.