No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?

[gmm4j]

Last I checked, God was sovereign and was under no obligation to save anyone. Just because He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked doesn't make them not wicked and deserving of punishment. And just because God is just doesn't mean He's also not merciful to some just because He wants to be.

He is sovereign and only obligated to His own character and word.

If He really didn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, then it would be up to Him alone to have mercy on them so they won't perish.

So again, your system says, God alone can make a man willingly turn toward Him, and yet He refuses to make most of humanity willing, even though He tells us that He doesn't take pleasure in anyone perishing and tells them to turn, all while knowing that His good pleasure is to not enable their will to turn.

 

[gmm4j]

Taking your first sentence at face value, you believe that God knows whether an individual will ultimately reach the point of salvation prior to their creation.

Fine.

But why then do you insist that God continues to try to convince them (in real time) when He knows with 100% omniscient certainty that His efforts will ultimately be fruitless?

God provides ample revelation and time for repentance in order to:
1. Show His mercy by giving a legitimate offer of salvation. (It is their in-time response that determined God's 100% foreknowledge)
2. Make them deserving of a more severe punishment.
3. Show His glory in bringing justice.

 

[Hammster]

He is sovereign and only obligated to His own character and word.

If He really didn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked, then it would be up to Him alone to have mercy on them so they won't perish.

So again, your system says, God alone can make a man willingly turn toward Him, and yet He refuses to make most of humanity willing, even though He tells us that He doesn't take pleasure in anyone perishing and tells them to turn, all while knowing that His good pleasure is to not enable their will to turn.

So, you're saying that God cannot save whomever He wants?

 

[gmm4j]

So, you're saying that God cannot save whomever He wants?

He does save whoever He wants. He wants to save those who trust Him to save them.

 

[Hammster]

He does save whoever He wants. He wants to save those who trust Him to save them.

And He can't save the rest?

 

[gmm4j]

And He can't save the rest?

He can.

 

[Hammster]

He can.

Then there endeth the discussion.

 

[gmm4j]

Then there endeth the discussion.

Okay, if you want to drop out that's fine with me.

To tell them to turn because you "take no pleasure in their perishing" while knowing that they will never want to turn because (according to your good pleasure) you have chosen not to intervene on their behalf, which you have decided to withhold from most, is cruel. Demanding they turn knowing they can never will themselves to turn is cruel.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, if you want to drop out that's fine with me.

To tell them to turn because you "take no pleasure in their perishing" while knowing that they will never want to turn because (according to your good pleasure) you have chosen not to intervene on their behalf, which you have decided to withhold from most, is cruel. Demanding they turn knowing they can never will themselves to turn is cruel.

You said God can save whom He wants. I say God can save whom He wants. And we both agree that God doesn't save everyone. I'm not sure what your issue is.

 

[gmm4j]

To tell them to turn because you "take no pleasure in their perishing" while knowing that they will never want to turn because (according to your good pleasure) you have chosen not to intervene on their behalf, which you have decided to withhold from most, is cruel. Demanding they turn knowing they can never will themselves to turn is cruel.

 

[Hammster]

To tell them to turn because you "take no pleasure in their perishing" while knowing that they will never want to turn because (according to your good pleasure) you have chosen not to intervene on their behalf, which you have decided to withhold from most, is cruel. Demanding they turn knowing they can never will themselves to turn is cruel.

They can but they won't.

 

[tall73]

They can will themselves. They just won't. I'm pretty sure we've said this ad infinitum.

They can will themselves to turn?
Would it have any impact per se?

 

[Hammster]

They can will themselves to turn?
Would it have any impact per se?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 

[gmm4j]

To tell them to turn because you "take no pleasure in their perishing" while knowing that they will never want to turn because (according to your good pleasure) you have chosen not to intervene on their behalf, which you have decided to withhold from most, is cruel.

 

[Hammster]

To tell them to turn because you "take no pleasure in their perishing" while knowing that they will never want to turn because (according to your good pleasure) you have chosen not to intervene on their behalf, which you have decided to withhold from most, is cruel.

They could turn if the wanted.

 

[gmm4j]

They could turn if the wanted.

So you don't agree with Total Depravity...

Total Depravity/Inability: Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation, but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation. It is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

 

[Hammster]

So you don't agree with Total Depravity...

Total Depravity/Inability: Because of the Fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance to bring a sinner to Christ. It takes regeneration, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation, but is itself a part of God’s gift of salvation. It is God’s gift to the sinner, not the sinner’s gift to God.

Any non-Pelagian should agree with this. Man is not born good.

 

[gmm4j]

Any non-Pelagian should agree with this. Man is not born good.

Even the "unable", "will is not free" and "indeed cannot" parts?

 

[Hammster]

Even the "unable", "will is not free" and "indeed cannot" parts?

Well, without knowing exactly what the author means, it's difficult to say. But there's no physical inability to believing.

Do you believe that a man can come to faith without the Holy Spirit doing something in him first?

 

[gmm4j]

Well, without knowing exactly what the author means, it's difficult to say. But there's no physical inability to believing.

Do you believe that a man can come to faith without the Holy Spirit doing something in him first?

A man cannot come to faith without the Holy Spirit doing something in him first.

If there is no physical inability to believe, then why don't they?