No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

[Brightfame52]

John 12:32 refers to all people being drawn. Something you deny. That is like denying that God wants all people to be saved even though scripture clearly teaches that He does (1 Timothy 2:3-6). The reason that some are not saved is not because of their supposed total depravity, but because they use their free will to choose to reject Christ and the gospel.

Jn 12:32 the elect, they are all drawn to Christ.

 

[ThatDumbChicken]

scripture is limited

Oof. Not a hill I'd want to die on.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come here means no man has the ability to come to Christ. That cancels out the myth that man has a freewill,

It also means that no man has the ability to believe on Christ for Salvation. Because Christ equates believing on Him with coming to Him. Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


What about those Jesus says to them Jn 5:40

40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Thats answered in Jn 6:44 they simply will not come because they cannot come unless the Power of God draws them and makes them willing

In John 6 Jesus was speaking to ancient, apostate Jews. No application can be made to anyone else. You are committing the Hasty Generalization Fallacy.

 

[Jack Terrence]

Jn 12:32 the elect, they are all drawn to Christ.

I don't see the word "elect" there.

 

[Rescued One]

Simply claiming there is no puppetmaster doesn't make the charge go away. Calvinist paint God as the only one able to act, because Calvinists beleive everything has been meticulously decreed and God has decided how every person will act in every instance. If we have no genuine freedom, then we are merely puppets and everything including this conversation and my disgust at the Calvinist vision of God were decided by God in eternity past. So Calvinists turn God into a double-minded puppet master and make a mockery of concepts like love and justice by painting God as unloving and injust.

A peacemaker such as yourself ought not to cast stones.

 

[Brightfame52]

In John 6 Jesus was speaking to ancient, apostate Jews. No application can be made to anyone else. You are committing the Hasty Generalization Fallacy.

False its very applicable. The emphasis is NO MAN can come, not no jew, all mankind apostatized in Adam

 

[Brightfame52]

I don't see the word "elect" there.

Its a lot you dont see

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Those who are saved take Christians seriously.

I don't take those who misrepresent my view seriously whether they are Christian or not.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The only ones who will come to Christ/believe in Him for all Salvation will be His Sheep Jn 10:26. And its not by their own freewill nor anything native or natural within them, but by the Father having given them to the Son Jn 6:37,65 which speaks to Election. The Father by drawing them to Christ, actually, by His Spirit of Grace, causes them to come or believe in Christ, hence all credit, praise, honor must go to God for a person believing in Jesus Christ for Salvation. See Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 9

So, in your view, God's desire for all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) is not genuine because you believe He purposely saves some while not giving the rest any opportunity to be saved. Why are you comfortable with making God out to be disingenuous?

Assume for the sake of argument that we all have free will. If someone uses their free will to choose to repent and acknowledge that they are a lost sinner who can't save himself or herself and that only Jesus can save him or her, then who is that person praising for their salvation? Not themselves. They just acknowledged that they can't save themselves. So, this idea that Calvinists like you have that you have to be a Calvinist in order to hold to a view that only gives praise and honor to God for salvation is false.

 

[Fervent]

A peacemaker such as yourself ought not to cast stones.

Denouncing insidious false teaching is not "cast(ing) stones"...it's resisting false teaching.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That scripture is limited to the elect

LOL. It doesn't say "the elect" in 1 John 2:2, it says "the whole world". Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so that the whole world would have the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life. God sent His Son to do that because He wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). Why do you constantly change scripture to make it say what you want it to say?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Jn 12:32 the elect, they are all drawn to Christ.

You turn "all people" into the elect. You are repeatedly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say and that is shameful and unacceptable.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Its on you to prove that 2 Pet 2:1 teaches redemption by the blood of Christ is being discussed. Its on you to explain it, Im explaining why no person can come/believe on Christ by their own freewill.

Weak response. You just don't want to deal with what 2 Peter 2:1 clearly indicates. What else can it possibly be talking about when it talks about the Lord buying them accept for Him paying for their sins? It should be clear that is what it means. You can't even offer a guess as to what it means. You are not even trying to see what it means because you know if it's saying He bought them in the sense of paying for their sins, then that contradicts your doctrine. No wonder you don't even want to talk about that verse.

 

[Brightfame52]

So, in your view, God's desire for all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6) is not genuine because you believe He purposely saves some while not giving the rest any opportunity to be saved. Why are you comfortable with making God out to be disingenuous?

Assume for the sake of argument that we all have free will. If someone uses their free will to choose to repent and acknowledge that they are a lost sinner who can't save himself or herself and that only Jesus can save him or her, then who is that person praising for their salvation? Not themselves. They just acknowledged that they can't save themselves. So, this idea that Calvinists like you have that you have to be a Calvinist in order to hold to a view that only gives praise and honor to God for salvation is false.

No man can come to Christ or believe on Him with their own freewill Jn 6:44

 

[Brightfame52]

LOL. It doesn't say "the elect" in 1 John 2:2, it says "the whole world". Jesus died for the sins of the whole world so that the whole world would have the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life. God sent His Son to do that because He wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). Why do you constantly change scripture to make it say what you want it to say?

Again limited to the elect

 

[Brightfame52]

You turn "all people" into the elect. You are repeatedly twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to say and that is shameful and unacceptable.

Limited to the elect or His sheep Jn 10

 

[Brightfame52]

Weak response. You just don't want to deal with what 2 Peter 2:1 clearly indicates. What else can it possibly be talking about when it talks about the Lord buying them accept for Him paying for their sins? It should be clear that is what it means. You can't even offer a guess as to what it means. You are not even trying to see what it means because you know if it's saying He bought them in the sense of paying for their sins, then that contradicts your doctrine. No wonder you don't even want to talk about that verse.

You haven't proved it. Nothing about the blood of Christ in that scripture

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No man can come to Christ or believe on Him with their own freewill Jn 6:44

Yes, they can. You are interpreting John 6:44 without taking John 12:32 into account where it says that Jesus would draw all people (literally all people) to Himself. You cherry pick scripture to form your doctrine instead of taking all of scripture into account.

Why did you not address the points I made in my post?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Limited to the elect or His sheep Jn 10

The elect/sheep are the ones who accept God's offer of salvation that He made possible for all people. The ones who are not the elect/sheep are those who willingly choose to reject God's offer of salvation that He made possible for them by sending His Son to die for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Again limited to the elect

So, in your imaginary world, "all people" and "the whole world" only refer to the elect. I see.