No new Mosques?

[smaneck]

That's why I compared to what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. Much of the same dynamics were at work. The real villein here is not religion it is virulent nationalism.

I think there is an attempt by some to try to spin human tragedy to portray one group as a perpetual victim while other groups are not considered. Bosnia is another example but the 1990s breakup of Yugoslavia is a complicated matter with atrocities on all sides. There is also some history that needs to be studied re this: The Handzar Division lives on in Bosnia.... .

Then in the 1990s: Carl Savich Column on Serbianna.com | Front Page

 

[WoodrowX2]

this come from Moscow

No new mosques for Moscow, says mayor | Islam | World Bulletin

​

no idea​

I do not see how no Mosques would greatly disrupt us Muslim. Islam is not dependent on Mosques and I would venture to say that most Muslims world wide seldom pray in a Mosque. Especially here in the US were the number of Mosques can only hold about 10% of the Muslim Population. Here in North Dakota, there are at least 8,000 Muslims but only 5 Mosques and the largest one can only hold about 200 people. The total capacity of all 5 Mosques is about 500. But that does not stop any of us from praying.

Every adult Muslim can be an Imam. Every Muslim Household can have one room for a Mosque.

The lack of Mosques does not prevent us from praying or learning about Islam. The first teacher of Islam is a person's Mother. After that any Adult Muslims we know.

Take away all the Mosques and we will find a room to pray in. take away our houses and we will find a clean spot of ground to pray on. Take away our Imams and another Muslim will step into his place. Separate us so we are each alone and we will be our own Imams as many do when Prayer time occurs during work or school.

Take away every Mosque and you will never know how many Muslims live near you. Without a Mosque we are still there, but no longer readily visible.

 

[TG123]

I resent this and want examples

Salaam Alaikum. You want examples of you posting misinformation? I will gladly provide it.

The best example was your post quoting Yusuf Estes about how the Catholic Church was started by Alexander the Great, how it was "in business" 300 years before Christ and how it "took over Christianity" in AD 325. When I pointed out the obvious... that Yusuf Estes' 'references' from the Vatican website (I still laugh at that) is nonexistent, you made the absurd claim that the Vatican changed their site and that such "information" was on there in the first place. I also showed you an article about the Catholic Church in Encyclopaedia Britannica, and of course it contains nothing about Yusuf Estes' wild claims about the origin of the Catholic church.

You posted misinformation about the Catholic Church. This isn't different from what many people here post about Islam. You are in the same group in that sense.

 

[TG123]

I strongly resent this kind of baseless acusations.prove your claim

Very gladly.

When I posted information on the Armenian Genocide, you denied the crimes of the Ottoman Empire and put the blame on the Armenians themselves. You will denounce Israeli and American and Vatican crimes, but cannot be bothered to investigate the situation in West Papua and you have not said one single word against the mass murdering regime in Indonesia. You condemned the South Sudanese from breaking away from Sudan but had not one word of condemnation for the regime in Khartoum which killed over a million Christians and animists in the South, as well as tens of thousands in Darfur. You support the death penalty against people who leave Islam, yet support attacking countries that refuse your religion to spread within its borders.

You are against war and occupation and abuses and religious repression- as long as these crimes are being committed by non-Muslims against Muslims. When Muslims are the perpetrators, you either defend them or plead ignorance and refuse to look into the matter altogether.

you did not respond to countless cases of terror done by churches and priests which I posted in my thread :
http://www.christianforums.com/t7773431/

No, I did not respond to that particular thread. I responded to other threads about crimes committed by people claiming to be Christians, and I always condemned them. I have condemned more crimes carried out by Christians (or people claiming to be such) than you have condemned crimes carried out by Muslims (or people claiming to be such).

you deny Judaism and use their Book?!

Judaism uses not only the Old Testament, but also the Talmud. The Talmud is not recognized by Christians as being Scripture. Jews also do not accept the New Testament. For Christians, both Old Testament and New Testament are part of the Bible.

as for the second part , there are milions of Christians who left Christianity for lack of proofs

There are also millions who left Islam, what is your point?

 

[TG123]

I do not see how no Mosques would greatly disrupt us Muslim. Islam is not dependent on Mosques and I would venture to say that most Muslims world wide seldom pray in a Mosque. Especially here in the US were the number of Mosques can only hold about 10% of the Muslim Population. Here in North Dakota, there are at least 8,000 Muslims but only 5 Mosques and the largest one can only hold about 200 people. The total capacity of all 5 Mosques is about 500. But that does not stop any of us from praying.

Every adult Muslim can be an Imam. Every Muslim Household can have one room for a Mosque.

The lack of Mosques does not prevent us from praying or learning about Islam. The first teacher of Islam is a person's Mother. After that any Adult Muslims we know.

Take away all the Mosques and we will find a room to pray in. take away our houses and we will find a clean spot of ground to pray on. Take away our Imams and another Muslim will step into his place. Separate us so we are each alone and we will be our own Imams as many do when Prayer time occurs during work or school.

Take away every Mosque and you will never know how many Muslims live near you. Without a Mosque we are still there, but no longer readily visible.

Salaam Alaikum. I condemn restrictions on building of mosques. Muslims should be allowed to build them, like all other religious groups should be allowed to build places of worship. It is stupid and hateful to ban the building of mosques.

Do you also oppose restrictions that are placed on building churches in certain Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia?

I agree that lack of a mosque does not mean that Islam is not practiced. I know this because this is the same of churches. Churches were destroyed en-masse in some communist countries like China, and now Christianity is the fastest growing religion there, praise be to God. Even in Saudi Arabia, there are people who come to know Jesus, even if after converting and announcing their faith, they face persecution.

 

[smaneck]

Judaism uses not only the Old Testament, but also the Talmud. The Talmud is not recognized by Christians as being Scripture.

The Talmud is the central text of Rabbinical Judaism, but it is not considered scripture.

 

[WoodrowX2]

Salaam Alaikum. I condemn restrictions on building of mosques. Muslims should be allowed to build them, like all other religious groups should be allowed to build places of worship. It is stupid and hateful to ban the building of mosques.

Do you also oppose restrictions that are placed on building churches in certain Muslim countries, like Saudi Arabia?

I agree that lack of a mosque does not mean that Islam is not practiced. I know this because this is the same of churches. Churches were destroyed en-masse in some communist countries like China, and now Christianity is the fastest growing religion there, praise be to God. Even in Saudi Arabia, there are people who come to know Jesus, even if after converting and announcing their faith, they face persecution.

Saudi is a difficult nation. Being a kingdom the entire nation is owned by the Saud Family. Everything built there is built on private property owned by the Saud family.

If a Religious denomination were able to buy land in Saudi, I would expect them to be able to build whatever they desire. But in Saudi no one not even Muslims can buy land. It all belongs to the Saud family.

Every Mosque, School, church(There are a few on the peninsula), public building, Hotel, Hospital etc is owned by the Saud Family.

Would you demand a neighbor allow you to build a Church in his back yard? Would I have the right here in the USA to build a Mosque on the land of a Ranch near me, if the Ranch owner does not want me to?


You have to think of Saudi as you would think of a very large privately owned Ranch.

When the Saud Family gained ownership of the Arabian Peninsula in 1933 the entire land became the private property of Abdul Aziz Al Saud, and he named it after his Family. When we walk on the grounds of Saudi we are walking on a big Ranch owned by the Saud Family. It may be the biggest piece of privately owned Real Estate in the World, but it is Private property.



When anyone goes into Saudi Arabia they are walking on private property.

This is sort of like walking on the King ranch in Texas. The Ranch is owned by one family. If I went there and tried to build a Mosque I would respect the King Families ownership of the land.

No matter what I think of Saudi I respect it as I would any privately owned property and would not build anything on privately owned land without the owners permission.

Would it be morally right for anyone to overthrow the Saud Family and steal the property from them? I leave that up to each person's conscience/

 

[TG123]

Saudi is a difficult nation. Being a kingdom the entire nation is owned by the Saud Family. Everything built there is built on private property owned by the Saud family.

If a Religious denomination were able to buy land in Saudi, I would expect them to be able to build whatever they desire. But in Saudi no one not even Muslims can buy land. It all belongs to the Saud family.

Every Mosque, School, church(There are a few on the peninsula), public building, Hotel, Hospital etc is owned by the Saud Family.

Would you demand a neighbor allow you to build a Church in his back yard? Would I have the right here in the USA to build a Mosque on the land of a Ranch near me, if the Ranch owner does not want me to?


You have to think of Saudi as you would think of a very large privately owned Ranch.

When the Saud Family gained ownership of the Arabian Peninsula in 1933 the entire land became the private property of Abdul Aziz Al Saud, and he named it after his Family. When we walk on the grounds of Saudi we are walking on a big Ranch owned by the Saud Family. It may be the biggest piece of privately owned Real Estate in the World, but it is Private property.



When anyone goes into Saudi Arabia they are walking on private property.

This is sort of like walking on the King ranch in Texas. The Ranch is owned by one family. If I went there and tried to build a Mosque I would respect the King Families ownership of the land.

No matter what I think of Saudi I respect it as I would any privately owned property and would not build anything on privately owned land without the owners permission.

Would it be morally right for anyone to overthrow the Saud Family and steal the property from them? I leave that up to each person's conscience/

You make an interesting point, about Saudi Arabia being "private property" of the Saudi family. I don't support overthrowing them so that churches can be built in Saudi Arabia, but I do support calling them out on their hypocrisy.

The Saudi government's ministries sends millions of dollars to help Islam spread in other nations, funding mosques overseas and it is very vocal when the freedom of religious expression of Muslims overseas is repressed. Yet at the same time, they force Christians in their country to hide their faith, and Muslims in Saudi Arabia who convert to Christianity face legal prosecution. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

Also, the Saudi family has sent its police and armed units into Bahrain a few years ago, to put down a Shia movement which was agitating against the opppression their people face from their king. Saudi security agents engaged in widespread torture and mass imprisonment, and supported the Bahraini security forces which were gunning down people in the streets.

Not surprisingly, most of the world did not say anything, and the US government kept supporting the Saudi regime. I guess they both like to invade and terrorize people in their own land.

If the Saudi family wants to treat the whole Kingdom like its "ranch" and stop the spread of religions other than Islam there, that is I think pretty pathetic but it is their right, as long as their citizens are OK with that. However, then they should not be spreading Islam around the world and demanding that countries accomodate the right to religious expression of Muslims while they themselves do not tolerate any religion but Islam within their kingdom.

And they should not be straying outside of their kingdom to murder and terrorize people outside of its borders. The same applies to America and Israel and many other nations in the world.

 

[smaneck]

The Saudi government's ministries sends millions of dollars to help Islam spread in other nations, funding mosques overseas and it is very vocal when the freedom of religious expression of Muslims overseas is repressed. Yet at the same time, they force Christians in their country to hide their faith, and Muslims in Saudi Arabia who convert to Christianity face legal prosecution. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

I think it is very much like those Evangelical Christians who are pushing for a return to prayer in the public schools. But they sure don't want to hear my prayers there!

Also, the Saudi family has sent its police and armed units into Bahrain a few years ago, to put down a Shia movement which was agitating against the opppression their people face from their king. Saudi security agents engaged in widespread torture and mass imprisonment, and supported the Bahraini security forces which were gunning down people in the streets.
Not surprisingly, most of the world did not say anything, and the US government kept supporting the Saudi regime. I guess they both like to invade and terrorize people in their own land.

That's because the US fully supported the Saudi's action.

 

[smaneck]

And they should not be straying outside of their kingdom to murder and terrorize people outside of its borders. The same applies to America and Israel and many other nations in the world.

 

[WoodrowX2]

You make an interesting point, about Saudi Arabia being "private property" of the Saudi family. I don't support overthrowing them so that churches can be built in Saudi Arabia, but I do support calling them out on their hypocrisy.

The Saudi government's ministries sends millions of dollars to help Islam spread in other nations, funding mosques overseas and it is very vocal when the freedom of religious expression of Muslims overseas is repressed. Yet at the same time, they force Christians in their country to hide their faith, and Muslims in Saudi Arabia who convert to Christianity face legal prosecution. That is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

Also, the Saudi family has sent its police and armed units into Bahrain a few years ago, to put down a Shia movement which was agitating against the opppression their people face from their king. Saudi security agents engaged in widespread torture and mass imprisonment, and supported the Bahraini security forces which were gunning down people in the streets.

Not surprisingly, most of the world did not say anything, and the US government kept supporting the Saudi regime. I guess they both like to invade and terrorize people in their own land.

If the Saudi family wants to treat the whole Kingdom like its "ranch" and stop the spread of religions other than Islam there, that is I think pretty pathetic but it is their right, as long as their citizens are OK with that. However, then they should not be spreading Islam around the world and demanding that countries accomodate the right to religious expression of Muslims while they themselves do not tolerate any religion but Islam within their kingdom.

And they should not be straying outside of their kingdom to murder and terrorize people outside of its borders. The same applies to America and Israel and many other nations in the world.

It is virtually impossible to get even a penny from Saudi for building a Mosque unless you agree for it to follow Wahhabi'ism. Very few Mosques outside Saudi receive any money from Saudi. Nearly every Mosque has been built with the private funds of the Imam or a local Islamic society.

Saudi will not support a Mosque unless it follows the Saudi version of the Hanabli Madhab. and the Hanabli madhab is the smallest Sunni Madhab. Although many Arab Sunni follow it. but less than 10% of the world's Muslims are Arab.

TRIVIA: Nearly every Arab in the United States is Christian not Muslim. Very Few Muslims in the USA are Arab. Just as very few Muslims in the world are Arab. Nearly every Arab Muslim in the USA lives in Detroit.

 

[smaneck]

Although many Arab Sunni follow it. but less than 10% of the world's Muslims are Arab.

If you include the Arabic speaking Muslims in Africa, they come to about 25% of the Muslims. Middle Easterners make up only about 15% of the Muslims in the world and that includes Iranians, Kurds, etc. who are not Arabs.

TRIVIA: Nearly every Arab in the United States is Christian not Muslim. Very Few Muslims in the USA are Arab. Just as very few Muslims in the world are Arab. Nearly every Arab Muslim in the USA lives in Detroit.

To be precise, about 25% of Arab-Americans are Muslims. I presume by 'Detroit' you mean Dearborn. Most Arab-American Muslims don't live near Detroit, but they have certainly the largest concentration there. Arabs came to work for the auto-industry, first Christians, later Muslims. Over 90% of Arab-American Muslims live in urban areas.

 

[WoodrowX2]

If you include the Arabic speaking Muslims in Africa, they come to about 25% of the Muslims. Middle Easterners make up only about 15% of the Muslims in the world and that includes Iranians, Kurds, etc. who are not Arabs.



To be precise, about 25% of Arab-Americans are Muslims. I presume by 'Detroit' you mean Dearborn. Most Arab-American Muslims don't live near Detroit, but they have certainly the largest concentration there. Arabs came to work for the auto-industry, first Christians, later Muslims. Over 90% of Arab-American Muslims live in urban areas.

Thank you for the Correction. I did mean Dearborn.

Something I noticed when I lived in Texas. It seems almost every Hindu and Sikh gets mistaken for being an Arab Muslim and most Muslims are not recognized as being Muslim.

Funny thing here when ever I wear Sunnah clothing I almost always hear this from people I meet "You are the first Indian I ever seen with a Beard, What tribe do you belong to?" I get mis identified as being Native American.

 

[smaneck]

Something I noticed when I lived in Texas. It seems almost every Hindu and Sikh gets mistaken for being an Arab Muslim and most Muslims are not recognized as being Muslim.

Yeah, they don't understand that most Muslims don't wear turbans, only the 'ulama. And a Muslim turban looks nothing like a Sikh turban. Sikhs were targeted after 9-11 and some were even killed. I remember when Indira Ghandi was assassinated. The San Jose Mercury News reported that she was killed by Sikh Muslim extremists!

 

[sunrise0]

Salaam Alaikum. You want examples of you posting misinformation? I will gladly provide it.

The best example was your post quoting Yusuf Estes about how the Catholic Church was started by Alexander the Great, how it was "in business" 300 years before Christ and how it "took over Christianity" in AD 325. When I pointed out the obvious... that Yusuf Estes' 'references' from the Vatican website (I still laugh at that) is nonexistent, you made the absurd claim that the Vatican changed their site and that such "information" was on there in the first place. I also showed you an article about the Catholic Church in Encyclopaedia Britannica, and of course it contains nothing about Yusuf Estes' wild claims about the origin of the Catholic church.

You posted misinformation about the Catholic Church. This isn't different from what many people here post about Islam. You are in the same group in that sense.

again this is not true because I already commented on it where I put many possibilites to thr truthfulness of his claim.

 

[smaneck]

again this is not true because I already commented on it where I put many possibilites to thr truthfulness of his claim.

Providing caveats does not negate the fact you were posting misinformation. Rumor-mongering is just as dangerous as outright lies.

 

[sunrise0]

Very gladly.

When I posted information on the Armenian Genocide, you denied the crimes of the Ottoman Empire and put the blame on the Armenians themselves.

not true. I posted the reason for the trouble. and many many times I posted Quranic verses and some hadeeths which warn against doing wrong to any creature except for self defence
I also said that some muslims are killing other muslims which is sinful, so what else am I supposed to say?

remember the thread I started about terror and the other in the Holy Quran? how many verses did you come up with as an answer?
remember one of them was about Prophet Moses story
another was about God ordering the angles to kill the pagans during the battle of Badr

in other words you wrote things that Islam and Muslims had no hand in them

You will denounce Israeli and American and Vatican crimes, but cannot be bothered to investigate the situation in West Papua and you have not said one single word against the mass murdering regime in Indonesia. You condemned the South Sudanese from breaking away from Sudan but had not one word of condemnation for the regime in Khartoum which killed over a million Christians and animists in the South, as well as tens of thousands in Darfur. You support the death penalty against people who leave Islam, yet support attacking countries that refuse your religion to spread within its borders.

the answer is in my comment above

You are against war and occupation and abuses and religious repression- as long as these crimes are being committed by non-Muslims against Muslims. When Muslims are the perpetrators, you either defend them or plead ignorance and refuse to look into the matter altogether.

same answer above
and what is your proof that I did this?

No, I did not respond to that particular thread. I responded to other threads about crimes committed by people claiming to be Christians, and I always condemned them. I have condemned more crimes carried out by Christians (or people claiming to be such) than you have condemned crimes carried out by Muslims (or people claiming to be such).

are you saying that neither the tens of verses from your Book which I posted are not true?
and that the terror done by priests and churches and the holy wars against Muslims when the priests were the leaders of the army and carrying crosses are not true?.

also what about this and who said it (do not think I came with peace, I came with sword)

Judaism uses not only the Old Testament, but also the Talmud. The Talmud is not recognized by Christians as being Scripture. Jews also do not accept the New Testament. For Christians, both Old Testament and New Testament are part of the Bible.

1- there is no connection at all between the OT and NT, and no mention of Jesus, sin, crucifction
2- neither of them is a revelation from God. the proofs are countless and within them. just google (is the Bible the word of God) and see the results, or read Maurice Baucaile's book about the Quran, Bible and science.
3- the OT is supposed to be for Jews only, according to this , God neglected the other billions of people and left them without a Book from Him since the NT is man-written book , there is no trace of the true Bible which God revealed to His Prophet Jesus (pbuh)
4- no one on earth can find one mistake in the Holy Quran. in fact there are some chalenges in it . one of them says:
4:82. Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein much contradictions.

5- the Holy Quran is the only Book from God . only one version has been around for over 14 centuries because He gurantted preserving it from any corruption:
15:9. Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption) .

There are also millions who left Islam, what is your point?

millions ? prove it and watch this before you try

islam will prevail الإسلام سوف يسود - YouTube

 

[smaneck]

5- the Holy Quran is the only Book from God . only one version has been around for over 14 centuries because He gurantted preserving it from any corruption:
15:9. Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'an) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption) .

You've inserted a lot of interpretation into that verse. It rather reminds me of those Christians who base their notions of inerrancy of the Bible on 2 Timothy 3:16.

 

[sunrise0]

You've inserted a lot of interpretation into that verse. It rather reminds me of those Christians who base their notions of inerrancy of the Bible on 2 Timothy 3:16.

since you know about my religion more than I do, please write some of the interpretations you claim I inserted into the Quranic verse

 

[smaneck]

since you know about my religion more than I do, please write some of the interpretations you claim I inserted into the Quranic verse

You interpreted dhikr (remembrance) as Qur'an and added "from corruption" which is not in the Arabic Qur'an.