• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

NO MORE PREACHING ON HELL

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,845
1,794
✟211,930.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It must also be remembered that this is only a parable, and not a real history;

No it is not a parable, real names and real situations are mentioned. Jesus does not speak fables or make up such things. Jesus spoke certain clear things in this discussion. He spoke of rich and poor and the attitudes of each and the love or lack of for others, he spoke of being conscious after death which the bible also speaks of in places. He spoke of torments of hell, which would mean nothing to any if it was not real.
 
Upvote 0

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,195
958
76
Oicha Beni
✟112,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It is truly remarkable the fact you so perfectly summed me up at that time. I mean that, most sincerely.
It seems kind of weird.
No one ever knew me that well. I am stunned!

And there are probably many many more who have had similar experiences. Thank you for sharing, Stuart. It's good to know there is a kindred spirit out there somewhere! :)

There are so many stories in the Bible in which an angel of the Lord appears, and the first thing he says is "Don't be frightened!" Even Jesus said this on the lake when he spooked his disciples in the boat. "Hey guys, don't be afraid...it is me." I think God hates fear, and the only antidote is love. I wonder how many are afraid to go to God and confess their sins, because in our justice systems, confession is a key to giving society the right (and obligation?) to punish. But for God, confession's whole purpose is to start the process of forgiveness, reconciliation, healing and growth. He came to give life, an abundant life! not continual self-condemnation.

Monna
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,973
Alabama
✟509,426.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No it is not a parable, real names and real situations are mentioned. Jesus does not speak fables or make up such things. Jesus spoke certain clear things in this discussion. He spoke of rich and poor and the attitudes of each and the love or lack of for others, he spoke of being conscious after death which the bible also speaks of in places. He spoke of torments of hell, which would mean nothing to any if it was not real.

See post #360
It will be remembered that the Jews had borrowed their ideas of torment in a future state from the heathen...
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,973
Alabama
✟509,426.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
No it is not a parable, real names and real situations are mentioned. Jesus does not speak fables or make up such things. Jesus spoke certain clear things in this discussion. He spoke of rich and poor and the attitudes of each and the love or lack of for others, he spoke of being conscious after death which the bible also speaks of in places. He spoke of torments of hell, which would mean nothing to any if it was not real.

In an earlier post you said because the name of Lazurs was used it is not a parable because no real names are used in Parables. (I am summarizing your post)

How about this

William Robert West answered the argument some make that the use of Lazarus' name proves it is a historical account of real people:

The objection of others is that parables do not use proper names. "And he took up his parable, and said, 'From ARAM has BALAK brought me, the king of MOAB from the mountains of the East: come, curse me JACOB, and come, defy ISRAEL'" [Numbers 23:7]. Not one but FIVE PROPER NAMES are used in one parable. "SATAN" [Mark 4:14] "THE SON OF MAN" [Matthew 13:37]. (William Robert West, If the Soul or Spirit Is Immortal, There Can Be No Resurrection from the Dead, Third Edition, September 2006, originally published as The Resurrection and Immortality [Bloomington, IN: Author House], p. 229.)
 
Upvote 0

miknik5

"Let not your heart be troubled"
Jun 9, 2016
15,728
2,819
USA
✟109,054.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think one has to remember who has the keys to both death and hades

And that HE stands at THE DOOR unto the kingdom of GOD and knocks
If any man hear HIS VOICE and opens THE DOOR HE will come in and "eat" (fellowship) with you

THE DOOR HE opens no man can close and THE DOOR HE closes no man can open
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brian Mcnamee

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2017
2,308
1,294
66
usa
✟229,165.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The scriptures predict that in the last days men will not longer endure sound doctrine...the spiritual laws are the laws of sin and death. Salvation in Jesus needs to be understood in term of what we are being saved from. Jesus himself spoke more about hell than heaven. The Bible is so simple in terms of painting a clear line down the center and you are on either one side of it or the other. John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You are either born again or not. In Revelation we see the books opened and anyone who's name was not written in the Lamb's book of life was cast into hell. Your name is either written in it or not.

There are many more doctrines that are also neglected such as the deity of Christ, and that God is creator of all. The sermon on the mount is replacing the gospel and creating an ecumenical movement that all paths lead to God and are equal.

Jesus said I am the way the life and the truth and no man comes unto the Father but through Him. This is another clear line.

Thanks for bringing it up I hope this questions stirs people up today.
 
Upvote 0

Monna

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2017
1,195
958
76
Oicha Beni
✟112,754.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Why would it take a life, displayed in public, beaten and tortured for what "HE claimed" was for our sins to be washed away and the perfect Lamb was slain.......Thats a high cost and the price was paid, what did the blood of Jesus save us from???

When you dig into this, it turns out to be much bigger than we think. And I suspect our fumbling attempts to explain probably don't come close to the full answer. There are even some real puzzles created by the way we commonly answer. Certainly I still have lots of questions.

But my super-short answer is "ourselves, and the direction we were heading."

Some things that need to be juggled to fit the answer:

1. Paul confirms that we were "dead in our sins." Jesus also makes it clear we were dead when he told Nicodemus that we must be born again - spiritually. This implies that Jesus didn't die "instead of us." We were already dead. He gave up his life in order to identify with us in our death. (He lay down his life, nobody, not even Satan, took it from him!).

2. The greatest enemy of all is death (which has many symbolic meanings as well as the well-know biological and spiritual ones). Death could not be defeated by "not dying." Simply staying alive is no proof that death has been cheated or defeated. Jesus had to "descend into death" in order to defeat death by resurrection. Jesus lay down his life, and he took it up again. Satan could not hold him. So we have the evidence that death has been defeated. This is the fundamental core of the Christian faith (otherwise, says Paul, we are guilty of the worst kind of self-deception and christian belief is a farce).

3. Forgiveness doesn't exist under the law. The legalists say every sin must be paid for if God is to be just. As long as the sin has been paid for, it doesn't matter who pays for it, goes the logic. But if the sin is paid for, there is no need or place for forgiveness. Forgiveness by its very meaning says that the sin doesn't need to be paid for in the sense stated. So this again implies that Jesus didn't die to pay for our sins in this sense. (The scriptures are clear that Christ died for us, I don't deny that, but this phrase can be understood in different ways. He couldn't reconcile us to God, nor recompense God for the consequences of our sins, or even be an acceptable mediator for us, if he hadn't become a man and shared our death. That's several reasons for dying for us and because of our sins (and specifically for their consequences to the relationship), without "dying instead of us.") The Scriptures say that when we confess our sins to God he in in fact just and faithful in forgiving our sins (and to cleanse us from all unrightesousness).

4. Jesus came to give us life, and to give it abundantly. But abundant life is found only in relationship with God, who made us for this very purpose. Saying "I forgive you" does not in itself restore a relationship. It is fundamental to the process, but it is not enough, as everybody knows who has hurt someone else severely and wants to rebuild the relationship. Being forgiven doesn't deal with all the consequences of our wrong doing. If I have defamed someone publicly, and then am forgiven by that person, the public defamation is still out there and the damage is done. If I want to restore a close 'loving' relationship those consequences must be dealt with. So there is also an element of restitution that I must undertake.

4. When it comes to reconciliation with God and restitution, there is absolutely nothing I can bring "to the table." Every single thing I ever had I received ultimately from him. He has already told me that all my good works are as dirty rags in comparison with what he expects of me, and has already given me. So the only hope I have is accepting Jesus' offer to be my reconciliation, my reconcilitor, my mediator, and my restitution. In his death he identified with us, and he invites us to identify with him in his resurrection. He is our mediator, constantly going to bat for us, representing us, defending us, pleading for us, at the throne of Grace. So it is God would purefies and cleans us from all nastiness, healing, mending, and guiding us to be all he meant us to be.

God is love. In his love he forgave us. In his love for us, but also for his Son Jesus, he accepts Jesus as our mediator, as our advocate, as our representative. Jesus is the window between earth and heaven. When we want to look through the window to see God, it is Jesus we see. And when God looks through the window to see us, it is Jesus he sees because we are "in him." We have allied ourselves to him, we have identified with him. Jesus had to lay down his life to accomplish all of this. And having now identified with him it is only appropriate that I live (abundantly) as a living sacrifice for him.

What does that mean? simply, self-denial (dying to self) - putting him first. Living in him. In this way allowing the Spirit to transform me from my innermost being out, to become the fully human person he intended and equiped me to be, to be like him. We were created 'by and for him.' If I submit myself to him I am garanteed to live abundantly. In the here and now. He came to save me from myself, and the wonderful irony is that I will only find myself fully by living for him and not for myself.

So... while it is always sobering to realise and think on what we are saved from, perhaps we should spend proportionately more time and effort on thinking and acting on what we are saved for.

Thank you SP, for posing the question...I hope I haven't been too 'over the top' in trying to answer. No doubt there are readers who won't agree with some of the things I've written. That's OK. I don't have all the explanations, and may be someone else will be good enough to add to my understanding. There's a huge amount I didn't say! ;)

blessings! / Monna
 
Upvote 0

Solomons Porch

Solomon's Porch
Jan 8, 2017
3,662
5,764
East
✟214,253.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The scriptures predict that in the last days men will not longer endure sound doctrine...the spiritual laws are the laws of sin and death. Salvation in Jesus needs to be understood in term of what we are being saved from. Jesus himself spoke more about hell than heaven. The Bible is so simple in terms of painting a clear line down the center and you are on either one side of it or the other. John 3
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

You are either born again or not. In Revelation we see the books opened and anyone who's name was not written in the Lamb's book of life was cast into hell. Your name is either written in it or not.

There are many more doctrines that are also neglected such as the deity of Christ, and that God is creator of all. The sermon on the mount is replacing the gospel and creating an ecumenical movement that all paths lead to God and are equal.

Jesus said I am the way the life and the truth and no man comes unto the Father but through Him. This is another clear line.

Thanks for bringing it up I hope this questions stirs people up today.

:oldthumbsup:
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,546
3,816
USA
✟277,195.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There's two kingdoms and two feasts being prepared now

And all who want to come to the wedding must have the right wedding garment

If they don't
They can't come
How does one obtain this Garment?
 
Upvote 0

CrystalDragon

Well-Known Member
Apr 28, 2016
3,119
1,664
US
✟56,261.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
And there are probably many many more who have had similar experiences. Thank you for sharing, Stuart. It's good to know there is a kindred spirit out there somewhere! :)

There are so many stories in the Bible in which an angel of the Lord appears, and the first thing he says is "Don't be frightened!" Even Jesus said this on the lake when he spooked his disciples in the boat. "Hey guys, don't be afraid...it is me." I think God hates fear, and the only antidote is love. I wonder how many are afraid to go to God and confess their sins, because in our justice systems, confession is a key to giving society the right (and obligation?) to punish. But for God, confession's whole purpose is to start the process of forgiveness, reconciliation, healing and growth. He came to give life, an abundant life! not continual self-condemnation.

Monna


Then why is it that God caused fear and violence and terror in the Old Testament, and even beyond the New Testament with the teaching on hell. I bet that a lot of people are Christians mainly because they're afraid of going to hell (Pascal's Wager and all that) rather than really having a loving relationship with God. How is that not fear? How is that love? If you claim it's love we have to redefine "love".
 
Upvote 0

Solomons Porch

Solomon's Porch
Jan 8, 2017
3,662
5,764
East
✟214,253.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I bet that a lot of people are Christians mainly because they're afraid of going to hell .

As a little girl I KNEW for a fact my daddy loved me because he gave me "balance", when I did wrong, he corrected me and did not reward me for doing wrong. When I did something good, HE PRAISED ME FOR IT.....

He molded me into a wonderful Jesus loving, God (respectful ) fearing, mother of 4 beautiful children, whom I as a mother disciplined and kept them in line "as best a parent could". I could not be more proud of my kids, even then when they got the (s) word that is NO LONGER acceptable in todays society (look how far we have come), they know I would move heaven and earth for them, BUT, they also know, there are certain things that "mama" aint gonna tolerate, so if they did those things that was wrong, they knew what they were gonna get. Why???? Because wrong is wrong, and right is right. They knew the guidelines, (kinda like Genesis to Revelation ) they were taught and IF the fear of the (s) word kept them straight.....So be it !!!

BUT they knew my love, they have never doubted my love. And to this day, grown, married, leading worship in church and preaching.....They know without a doubt, where that BALANCE came from. Am I tooting my on horn, U best believe I am. The Lord disciplines those He LOVES !! If He did not you would not be considered his sons and daughters. If you touch a hot stove, you get burned. So guess what, GOD IN HIS LOVE so perfectly formed us that even our nerves know when to draw back from a HOT surface.......... :peace:

 
Upvote 0

Blade

Veteran
Site Supporter
Dec 29, 2002
8,175
4,001
USA
✟654,188.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Solomons Porch" I understand and hear ya. But its MAN preaching it not God. Well God can not use something that is not of Him and that is FEAR. Nor will God in anyway force or sway a person to choose Christ. So anyone that gets saved hearing this TURN OR BURN.. As Christ said.. ANYONE that comes to Him He in no way cast them out but takes them in.

I am 55 and when I was very young 9 or so.. I remember very clearly the Baptist preaching on this and I went up and got saved. For me I have read the NT alone many time and not once do I ever come away with this TURN of BURN. Never ever get it from Matt-John :)
 
  • Agree
Reactions: GeorgeJ
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,546
3,816
USA
✟277,195.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The definition of hell that made most sense to me was when one minister stated:

Hell is the place where Gods presence does not exist.

Think of a world without Gods presence in it
This cannot be true is God is omnipresent......And I believe it was David who said that even if he made his bed in Hell, God is There.
 
Upvote 0

GeorgeJ

<Insert Custom Title Here>
Jul 25, 2016
1,716
1,572
USA
Visit site
✟85,608.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
I'm referring to the fact that you totally do not hear it anymore.....nowhere.
Hellfire and brimstone are still preached....go to any hardcore "KJV-only, soul winning, sin-hatin', independent fundamentalist baptist church" and you'll hear it whether you want to or not.
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,546
3,816
USA
✟277,195.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

Never be quenched sounds like forever and ever non ending, and in there there will be wailing and nashing of teeth

the fire never quenched will extend into the lake of fire as well forever
eternal fire sounds like forever as well. How do you explain the eternal fires that burnt Sodem and Gamorrah? Jude 1:7
 
Upvote 0

Solomons Porch

Solomon's Porch
Jan 8, 2017
3,662
5,764
East
✟214,253.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"Solomons Porch" I understand and hear ya. But its MAN preaching it not God. Well God can not use something that is not of Him and that is FEAR. Nor will God in anyway force or sway a person to choose Christ. So anyone that gets saved hearing this TURN OR BURN.. As Christ said.. ANYONE that comes to Him He in no way cast them out but takes them in.

I am 55 and when I was very young 9 or so.. I remember very clearly the Baptist preaching on this and I went up and got saved. For me I have read the NT alone many time and not once do I ever come away with this TURN of BURN. Never ever get it from Matt-John :)
I can totally agree that the msg should come from God and not man made. Spirit lead only. I will also agree, that many many many pastors have went overboard, in the old days, with the message. The way it was delivered was not in a good way or a LOVING way at all. Those I shake my head at, their intentions were good, their way of delivering it WAS BAD. Cause ppl to turn away, no doubt. But the message still should not be left out and we should not neglect when the Holy Spirit begins to speak and allow Him to deliver the message properly......which is in love. For why else would a man threaten hell if he did not care for his soul???? BUT like I said, many have delivered it the wrong way, no argument here on that one. :clap:
 
Upvote 0