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No Literal Hell?

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DeaconDean

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My point is that nowhere in scripture are the words eternal/everlasting/forever, etc. used together with torment/torture - with the exception of the devil, as the KJV has it, in Revelation 20:10.

Its as plain as the nose on your face.

In Rev. 19:20, we read:

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

In Rev. 20:10, we read:

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

And in Rev. 20:15, we read:

"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

The Beast and the false prophet are cast into the "lake of fire".

Afterwards the devil is cast into the same place.

After the great white throne judgement, everybody whose name is not in the Lamb's book of Life, are cast into the same place. As a matter of fact, death and hell are cast into the same place also.

Now if the beast and false prophet are in the lake of fire to be tormented day and night for ever, the devil is cast into the same place to be tormented forever, and those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the same place, what is to make us think they will not be tormented day and night forever and ever?

Its as plain as the nose on your face, and scriptures say it explicitly.

The beast, the false prophet, Satan, and those who are names are not in the Lamb's book of Life are all cast into the same place.

And if the beast, false prophet and the devil are going to be tormented forever, what makes us think the unsaved, unrepentant will fare better than them?

If you don't want to believe the unsaved, unrepentant won't be toryured forever, so be it.

But scriptures say otherwise.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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OzSpen,

re: "Do you read NT Greek?

Not a whit. DeaconDean, said that the SAME word was used in both the John and Revelation references. I don’t need to read Greek to see that Strong’s shows two different words. I think DD probably meant that the two words mean the same thing - "eternal". The thing is that I don’t see what that has to do with the conversation regarding the eternal torturing of folks. My point is that nowhere in scripture are the words eternal/everlasting/forever, etc. used together with torment/torture - with the exception of the devil, as the KJV has it, in Revelation 20:10.

Let me quote regarding "αἰῶνας αἰώνων ":

Adj. with 2 and 3 endings "eternal" Orphic, Hymn, 87, 5 (abel), Plato Leg. X., 904a; Resp., II, 3634; Tim. 37d and 38b...

In the New Testament "aiwnioV" (with the rare "aidioV") is used in the sense of eternal in three ways:

1. It is used of God: "tou aiwniou qeou"(Rev. 16:26, "aiwn", 200). AS a predicate of God, "aiwnioV" contains not merely the concept of unlimited time without beginning or end, but also of the eternity that transends time.

2. In the latter sense it is used also of divine possessions and gifts. In 2 Cor. 4:18 the things which are seen (ta blepomena) are compared to the things which are not seen as things temporal (proskaira) to things eternal. The same view is developed in Hb., e.g., in 9:14: the "pneuma aiwnion" (eternal spirit) because divine.

3. The expression ""aiwnioV basileia" (2 Pet. 1:11 forms a transition to the use of ""aiwnioV" as a term for the eschatological expectation: "zwh aiwnioV", "aiwnioV klhprnomia", Hb. 9:15; "aiwnioi skhnai", of the place of blessedness, Lk. 16:9: "oikia aiwnioV en toiV ouranioV", of the heavenly body, 2 Cor. 5:1...But an expression like "krima aiwnion", Hb. 6:2 (cf. ""aiwniou kpioewV", Mk. 3:29) shows that here, too, it extends beyond the purely temporal meaning.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Copyright 1964, Vol. I. "aiwn", Herman Sasse, commenting, p. 208-209

So "aiwnaV aiwnwn" (for ever and ever-KJV) or (age of ages-Greek rendition) can still be properly rendered as "for all eternity".

Just because it carries a different strongs number don't mean a thing. Both "aiwnaV" and "aiwnwn" come from the Greek word ""aiwn".

Eternity/eternal is as valid a definition for "aiwnaV" as eternal is for "aiwn".

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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phoenixdem

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phoenixdem,

I believe in the authoritative Scripture. However, the Holy Bible uses 4 Greek words that are translated as "hell". They are, sheol, hades, tartarus or gehenna.

To which ones are you referring? It is important that you know which Greek word is translated hell and what are the differences in meaning.

In Christ, Oz

There have been many translations and commentaries written by highly knowledgeable people. There are also the early Church Fathers who had knowledge of the meaning of the scriptures. You don't trust them?
 
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OzSpen

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Dean,
Let me quote regarding "αἰῶνας αἰώνων ":

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Copyright 1964, Vol. I. "aiwn", Herman Sasse, commenting, p. 208-209

So "aiwnaV aiwnwn" (for ever and ever-KJV) or (age of ages-Greek rendition) can still be properly rendered as "for all eternity".

Just because it carries a different strongs number don't mean a thing. Both "aiwnaV" and "aiwnwn" come from the Greek word ""aiwn".

Eternity/eternal is as valid a definition for "aiwnaV" as eternal is for "aiwn".

God Bless

Till all are one.
Thanks so much for quoting a reliable Greek source. It does bother me when people who do not know NT Greek quote Strong's as their source.

You have demonstrated the eternal nature of hell.

Thanks, Oz
 
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OzSpen

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There have been many translations and commentaries written by highly knowledgeable people. There are also the early Church Fathers who had knowledge of the meaning of the scriptures. You don't trust them?
So, you don't know the differences in meaning of sheol, hades, tartarus and ghenna? And it doesn't seem to matter to you what those differences are.

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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Should I expect an exam in the near future?
No examination is expected. However, when you discuss hell on a forum like this, you need to be familiar with the four Greek words that are translated hell: sheol, hades, tartarus and ghenna.

Why don't you treat this as a learning curve in your spiritual growth?

Oz
 
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phoenixdem

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No examination is expected. However, when you discuss hell on a forum like this, you need to be familiar with the four Greek words that are translated hell: sheol, hades, tartarus and ghenna.

Why don't you treat this as a learning curve in your spiritual growth?

Oz

On the other hand, you could treat this as a leap forward in your ability to understand that regardless of what a place is called, when the Holy Scriptures say it is a place of eternal fire and punishment, the place is far more important than what you call it.

It would also be a leap forward if you study the writings of the early Church Fathers and see what they had to say on this subject.
 
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DeaconDean

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I can say the same as Paul:

"For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." -Acts 20:26 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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phoenixdem

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This, ladies and gentlemen, is religion.
Do we recall what Jesus likened religion to?

It is called adherring to the Word of God. It is a shame that more people don't do that in these last days.

Do we recall what God said about those who change the Word of God?

Revelation:

22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy
of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add
unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this
prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and
out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this
book.
 
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DeaconDean

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There have been some awful strong innunemdos thrown around here in this thread concerning what we as Baptists believe about the Holy Bible.

The first Baptist confession in America states:

The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience;

The Old Testament in Hebrew, (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek, which (at the time of the writing of it) was most generally known to the nations, being immediately inspired by God, and by His singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto; and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar [ie. common] language of every nation, unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship Him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may hope.

The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.

THe Philadelphia Baptist Confession of Faith of 1742, Chapter 1, Of the Holy Scriptures, Sections 1, 8, 10

philadelphia confession-chapter 1

This is reiterated in:

1806 Mississippi Baptist Association Articles of Faith | The Reformed Reader

Principles of Faith of the Sandy Creek Association | The Reformed Reader

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith | The Reformed Reader

treatise of faith and practices of free will baptists

abstract of principles contents

Articles Put Forth by the Baptist Bible Union of America | The Reformed Reader

1925 Baptist Faith and Message

Faith and Message | The Reformed Reader

To imply that the Bible as we have it today is imperfect:

not perfect: as a : defective

Imperfect - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Is wrong!

There is no evidence at all to suppose that the New Testament was originally written in anything but ancient Greek! Concludes the New Bible Dictionary, "In summary, we may state that the Greek of the New Testament is known to us today as a language 'understanded of the people,' and that it was used with varying degrees of stylistic attainment, but with one impetus and vigour, to express in these documents a message which at any rate for its preachers was continuous with that of the Old Testament Scriptures -- a message of a living God, concerned for man's right relation with Himself, providing of Himself the means of reconciliation."

Now consider this.

The evidence all shows that Almighty God INSPIRED Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and the rest of the writers of the New Testament -- even including Peter and James -- of having written their gospels and epistles IN GREEK! Only Matthew's gospel was apparently written first in Hebrew or Aramaic.

The other New Testament writers, in using the Greek language, also used the GREEK FORMS of God's name, and the name of Jesus Christ, repeatedly and consistently! Clearly, therefore, God Himself does not disapprove of His name being translated into different human languages!

It is a spurious, specious argument to claim that the New Testament had to have been written in Hebrew, and had to contain only the Hebrew names for God. All the evidence of the manuscripts points otherwise.

Those who deny that the Old Testament faithfully preserves the knowledge of God's name, and who claim the New Testament was originally written in Hebrew, utilizing the Hebrew names for God, have no evidence or proof whatsoever to back up their claims. Should we believe them when they have no evidence, but only a "theory"? Should we take their speculations as "fact"? Of course not!

The apostle Paul cautions true Christians, "PROVE ALL THINGS; hold fast that which is good" (I Thess.5;21). We must not allow men to wrap us around their little fingers, and make mincemeat of us, just because they sound convincing and positive in their writings and arguments. The truth is, they don't know what they are talking about. They don't have a leg to stand on. They have placed their personal theological beliefs before the record of history. They have denied the facts in order to keep their own cherished beliefs.

Those who claim that the original manuscripts were not properly preserved in the language in which they were written, seem to think that God Almighty is UNABLE or UNWILLING to faithfully preserve and protect HIS WORD from the corruption and perversion of men!

God is not prejudiced against the Greek language, or Russian, Italian, German, Chinese, Spanish, French, or English. But, as Peter declared: "Of a truth, I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35). Amen to that!

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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FreeinChrist

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Vambram

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DeaconDean

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The Lake of Fire can't burn up death or even hell literally can it? Death and hell go together, because hell is the grave. They both are destroyed by this Fire of God--but that fire is not a literal or a literal place.

Sorry to disappoint many Christians and even Muslims who want eternal torment to be true, it is not and you have nothing to hold over another persons head. As I hear so many say, "You have no heaven or hell to put me in", and that is quite literal.

Nope, there is not literal pit of everlasting fire that will burn forever non-stop with humans inside of it.

Sister, I want to ask you a question.

Are you a Baptist?

If not, then you really shouldn't be debating here.

As a Baptist, one of the things we hold to is the validity to scriptures.

Scriptures tell us that God cannot lie. (Titus 1:2)

And that every word in the Holy Writ is literally "God-breathed" or "θεόπνευστος". (2 Tim. 3:16)

Now if God cannot lie, and His Holy word the scriptures are God breathed, then His scriptures cannot lie either.

Again, our Baptist Confessions of faith also state, based on scripture:


  1. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption,1 but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:2 the souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies;3 and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torment and utter darkness reserved to the judgment of the great day;4 besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
  2. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed;5 and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other;6 although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls for ever.7
  3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.8
Footnotes:

1. Ge 3:19; Ac 13:36.
2. Ecc 12:7.
3. Lk 23:43; 2Co 5:1,6,8; Php 1:23, Heb 12:23.
4. Jude 6-7; 1Pe 3:19; Lk 16:23-24.
5. 1Co 15:51-52; 1Th 4:17.
6. Job 19:26-27.
7. 1Co 15:42-43.
8. Ac 24:15; Jn 5:28-29; Php 3:21.


  1. God hath appointed a day wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ;1 to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day not only the apostate angels shall be judged,2 but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.3
  2. The end of God's appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient;4 for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and glory, with everlasting reward, in the presence of the Lord: but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments,5 and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.6
  3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin,7 and for the greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity,8 so will He have the day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come,9 and may ever be prepared to say, "Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly".10 Amen.
Footnotes:

1. Ac 17:31; Jn 5:22, 27.
2. 1Co 6:3; Jude 6.
3. 2Co 5:10; Ecc 12:14; Mt 12:36; Ro 14:10,12; Mt 25:32-46.
4. Ro 9:22-23.
5. Mt 25:21,34; 2Ti 4:8.
6. Mt 25:46; Mk 9:48; 2Th 1:7-10.
7. 2Co 5:10-11.
8. 2Th 1:5-7.
9. Mk 13:35-37; Lk 12:35-40.
10. Rev 22:20.

The Philadelphia Baptist Confession Of Faith of 1742, Chapter XXXIII, Of the State of Man After Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead; Chapter XXXIV, Of the Last Judgment

Now whether you want to accept this or not, that is your choice.

I have shown from the Greek scriptures that the lake of fire and brimstone is a real place, and that those who are cast into this place will be there in torments for all eternity.

Continued...
 
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DeaconDean

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From my paper "Speaking of Hell":

...those who reject God’s gracious offer of salvation in Jesus Christ, they then become servants or angels of Satan:

“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”


-Matt. 6:24 (KJV)​
And:

“He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.”


-Matt. 12:30 (KJV)​

There is no gray area in this respect. Either God is your master, or Satan is your master. Either you work for the master, or you work for Satan. So if God isn’t your master, what awaits the servant whose master is Satan?

The book of Revelations describes the lake of fire as a “bottomless pit.” (Rev. 9:2) It is a place where the unsaved person will be falling forever downwards , deeper and deeper with each passing second. But if that was all there was to it, it wouldn’t be so bad. But that isn’t the whole picture. Another aspect of the lake of fire is just that, fire. Jesus said:

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,”


-Matt. 25:41 (KJV)​

The prophet Isaiah warned of this terrible place centuries before Jesus’ teachings:

“For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.”


-Isa. 30:33 (KJV)​

In this passage, Isaiah tells us that this place was made long ago. It was prepared for its king. It is large and deep. There is a pile of much wood that is on fire. And finally, just as fire and brimstone destroyed the ancient cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, God’s breath is like a stream of brimstone that keeps feeding the fire thus enabling it to continue burning continuously. Jesus Himself said that the lake of fire was a:

“...lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.”


-Rev. 21:8 (KJV)​

The Bible also says that it will be a place where the unsaved that are cast into this place will:

“...Bind him hand and foot, and take him away and cast him into outer darkness.”


-Matt. 22:13 (KJV)​

Well this poses another question, how can there be absolute darkness where the ungodly, unsaved will be? Jesus said:

“...I am the light of the world.”


-John 9:5 (KJV)​

Likewise, in heaven Jesus is the light of heaven. (Rev. 21:23) While we were lost in sin, it is said that we were in darkness and:

“...stumbleth, because there is no light in him.”


-John 11:10 (KJV)​

So that we now know that because Jesus is the light of this world and the world that is yet to come, we have the light of Jesus within us. This means that those who don’t have the light in them are left in darkness. So that while Jesus is the light of heaven the lake of fire, the other place, is without the Light. And those who are cast into this place will be bound hand and foot so that they can’t move and cast into outer darkness. There is another passage that tells us it will be a place of great sorrow:

“...there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”


-Matt. 23:13 (KJV)​

When one weeps, they are crying. On the way to Calvary, women were crying when they looked upon the Savior. Beaten, scared, battered, and bleeding, carrying His cross to Calvary, but our Savior said to them:

“...Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me.”


-Luke 23:28 (KJV)​

On could say the ungodly are crying because they are in so much pain from the burning of the fire. And they would be only partially right. King David said:

“...my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.”


-Psa. 51:3 (KJV)​

Two possible explanations come to mind when speaking of the weeping in the lake of fire. In one sense, it could be that every sin the unsaved ever committed flash before their eyes as they are in torments in that place. The sorrow and regret they experience will only add to the pain as every sin, every curse word, every evil thought comes up before them to remind them of what they did to be cast into this place. And in another sense, it could be that they will remember every person who called on them and witnessed to them of God’s gracious offer of salvation and a chance to escape this awful place. Every church they passed, every Sabbath when they were playing golf, or washing the car, or cutting the grass, or boating out on the lake, could come to mind. When they should have been in church, worshipping the Lord, they were too busy thinking of self. To think of just how easy it would have been to escape this place if they would have only asked God to come into their life and save them.

Another aspect of this place will be “their worm:”

“Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.”


-Mark 9:44 (KJV)​

As to the absolute full meaning of this verse, no one is for sure. It could be a literal worm eating away at the person. It could be a worm eating away at their conscious as previously stated. Either way, whatever its meaning, it will be there.

And one last final thought before this is summed up. That temporary place called hell, when the souls of the ungodly, unsaved are brought before the righteous judge, that place will not be a place where sins are purged as one religion likes to teach. Whenever the sinner stands before Jesus to be judged, whatever sins the person has committed will cling to them like static electricity holds a sock to a pair of pants. What is sowed in corruption will be raised in corruption. The Bible says:

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still:”


-Rev. 22:11 (KJV)​

The great Puritan John Bunyan said:

“…all these places, with many others, do rather point at a corrupt soul, than a corrupt body; for, indeed, sin and all spiritual wickedness, they have their seat in the heart and soul of a man, and by their using this or that member of the body, so defile the man; the weaknesses of the body, or that attend our material flesh and blood, they are weaknesses of another kind, as sickness, aches, pains, sores, wounds, defection of members, etc. Wherefore, where you read of flesh and blood, as rejected of God; especially, when it speaks of the flesh and blood of saints, you are not to understand it as meant of the flesh, which is their proper human nature, but of that weakness which cleaveth to it.”[1]

Scriptures show that Jesus taught this doctrine. Jesus told His disciples that they were to teach others what He had taught them. (Matt. 28:19-20) If we leave this doctrine out of the Sunday school, or the pulpits, or even out of our seminaries, then we have not preached the whole gospel of God.

The doctrine of hell is rejected because God is not pictured as dispensing “righteous judgment,” rather in these modern days, God is pictured as the grandfather type who gives nickels, dimes, quarters, or dollars to those who are good, and spanking the wicked with a pillow covered paddle when they are bad.

The scriptures set forth here are a surety. Our God has not given revelation all at one time. He has chosen to reveal this progressively in time culminating in the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is the duty of every Christian not only to believe these doctrines, but we must preach and teach them to the generations living now as well as to those who will follow them.

The gift of God is eternal life with Him through Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is death, and to those who reject Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, the wrath of God “abideth on them.” To a minor degree, this wrath is revealed in the reality of hell. But yet in the worse degree, it is revealed to all the unsaved when they are cast alive in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, there to be tormented day and night for ever in the presence of the angels in heaven, and in the presence of the Lamb. And there you have it. Hades or hell is a reality. For our Savior preached more on this subject, than He did of the Fathers love. Hell is not eternal. It is only a temporary holding place. Hell is for all intents and purposes, is more like a holding cell, much like the “drunk tank” down at the county jail, the exception being that when one sobers up, you can be released from the “drunk tank. Only when you sober up in hell, there is no release. No amount of bail or no amount of bond posted will secure your release from hell. Hell is not a place of purging ones sins. You can rest assured that whatever sins you committed here on earth will still cling to you on the resurrection day because you will be “filthy still.” And finally, hell is only a type or shadow of punishment that is worse in nature, yet still to come.

So dear reader, if you have rejected this doctrine, please before another minute passes, re-read the scriptures. Examine your beliefs and doctrines and see if they match what God has revealed through His word and His Son.

Dear reader, if you don’t know the Lord as the “righteous judge,” who will reward us according to what we have sown in this body, whether good or bad, before another minute passes, please kneel and ask for His forgiveness before it is really: “Too Late!”

God Bless

Till all are one.

[1] John Bunyan, The Resurrection of the Dead and Eternal Judgment, [article on-line] accessed 8/9/06, found on the World Wide Web at: The Resurrection Of The Dead, And Eternal Judgment:
 
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