No Literal Hell?

[Timothew]

The final destination of the unbeliever is the lake of fire.

Which John says is what? The second what?

Do you know it? Come on, the Lake of Fire which is the second _______.

 

[DeaconDean]

Which John says is what? The second what?

Do you know it? Come on, the Lake of Fire which is the second _______.

"kai o qanatoV kai o adhV eblhqhsan eiV thn limnhn tou puroV. outoV o qanatoV o deuteroV estin, h limnh tou puroV."

qanatoV,n \{than'-at-os}
[SIZE=-1]1) the death of the body 1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended 1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell 1b1) the power of death 1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin 2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, 2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell 3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell 4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell [/SIZE]

Greek Lexicon

In your previous long response, you used, rather noted quite extensively, how the Greek word "apwleian" (destruction) saying:

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Yes, I will be the first to admit that apolia can be translated as "destroyed". But you also fail to mention that it is also used to mean:

1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Greek Lexicon

According to the New Analytical Greek Lexicon, it also means:

apwleia -consumption, destruction, profusion, Mt. 26:8; Mk. 14:4; destruction, state of being destroyed, Acts 25:6; eternal ruin, perdition, Mt. 7:13, Acts 8:20, et. al.

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Hendrickson Publishing, Peabody, Mass, 01962, Copyright 1990, "apwleia", p. 50

Perhaps I made this up. Hum...

Lets look at another reference.

ἀπώλεια , ἡ, A. destruction, Arist.EN1120a2, etc.: pl., Id.Mete.351b11.
II. loss, Id.Pr.952b26; opp. τήρησις, Plb.6.59.5 Schweigh., cf. BGU1058.35, al. (i B. C.); “τῶν χρόνων ἀ.” Diog.Oen.1.
2. perdition, Ep.Rom.9.22, 2 Ep.Thess.2.3.
3. thing lost, LXXLe.6.3（5.22).

Henry George Liddell. Robert Scott. A Greek-English Lexicon. revised and augmented throughout by. Sir Henry Stuart Jones. with the assistance of. Roderick McKenzie. Oxford. Clarendon Press. 1940.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Α α, , ἀπώγων , ἀπώλεια

Well, guess I wasn't.

Destroyed is not the only meaning.

What is meant by "perdition"?

per·di·tion, noun \pər-ˈdi-shən\,
Definition of PERDITION

1
a archaic : utter destruction
b obsolete : loss


2
a : eternal damnation
b : hell

Perdition - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

You said concerning Mt. 10:28:

Body and soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Here again, you fail to give the whole definition for the Greek word.

apokteinw - 1) to kill in any way whatever 1a) to destroy, to allow to perish 2) metaph. to extinguish, abolish 2a) to inflict mortal death 2b) to deprive of spiritual life and procure eternal misery in hell

Greek Lexicon

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon defines it:

to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; et. al.; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; to lose, to be deprived of, Mt. 10:42, et. al.; mid. "apollumai", fut. "apoloumai", 2 aor. "apoloumhn", 2 perf. "apolowla", to be destroyed, perish, Mt. 9:17, et. al.; to be put to death, to die, Mt. 26:52, et. al.; to be lost, to stray, Mt. 10:6.

Ibid, p. 46

So isn't it even remotely possible that in Mt. 10:28 Jesus is speaking of being deprived of spiritual life?

You also said:

the greek word that is used is katakausai which comes from katakaio and it means to consume by burning down, burn down.

SInce when does it always mean this?

I can think of a certain bush that was consumed in fire, yet did not burn.

A house can be consumed with fire, yet not be completely destroyed.

Concerning Lk. 13:3, you said:

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Strange that the same Greek word used here, is almost the same Greek word used as in Mt. 7:13.

"apollumi" -v \{ap-ol'-loo-mee}
1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose "

Greek Lexicon

Continued...

 

[DeaconDean]

You said:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

I'm gonna skip this for the moment, but I will come back to it.​

You said:​

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.


​

Actually, that is not what it says.​

It says:​

"ei tiV ton naon tou qeou fqeirei, fqerei touton o qeoV: o gar naoV tou qeou agioV estin, oitineV este umeiV."​

If any man spoil/ruin the temple of God, God will spoil/ruin him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.​

"fqeirw" (fthi'-ro) means:​

1) to corrupt, to destroy 1a) in the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties 1b) to lead away a Christian church from that state of knowledge and holiness in which it ought to abide 1c) to be destroyed, to perish 1d) in an ethical sense, to corrupt, deprave

Greek Lexicon​

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon defines it as:​

"fqeirw"-to spoil, ruin, 1 Cor. 3:17; 2 Cor. 7:2; to corrupt, morally deprave, 1 Cor. 15:33; 2 Cor. 11:3, et. al.

Ibid, p. 427​

You said:​

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.​

​

Actually, you have it wrong again.​

"fqoran":​

1) corruption, destruction, perishing 1a) that which is subject to corruption, what is perishable 1b) in the Christian sense, eternal misery in hell 2) in the NT, in an ethical sense, corruption i.e. moral decay

Greek Lexicon​

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon defines it as:​

corruption, decay, ruin, corruptibility, morality, Rom. 8:21; 1 Cor. 15:42; meton. corruptible, perishable, substance, 1 Cor. 15:50; killing, slaughter, 2 Pet. 2:12; spiritual ruin, Gal. 6:8; Col. 2:22; met. moral corruption, depravity, 2 Pet. 1:4; 2:12, 19

Ibid, p. 428​

You said:​

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.

From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.​

​

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon also defines it as:​

perdition, destruction, 1 Cor. 5:5; et. al.

Ibid, p. 292​

What was the definition of "perdition"?​

You commented:​

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
​

​

James 1:15b​

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a​

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

​

Destroy, not eternally torture.


​

Another rendereing of the word "destruction" in Hebrews 10:39 is as given before: "perdition".​

I'm gonna skip Jas. 1:15 and come to it when I address Rom. 6:23.​

In Jas. 4:12, we have the same thing again:​

1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

Greek Lexicon​

You said:​

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.


​

Here again, we see:​

1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

Greek Lexicon​

You said:​

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
​

8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.


​

Here again, we see:​

1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

Greek Lexicon​

In several other passages you quoted, you alway emphasize that the meaning is destroyed or something else, when in fact it means eternal misery in hell, perdition.​

Continued...​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[DeaconDean]

Three times you said:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

Revelation 2:11b​

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

"qanatoV" is defined as:

1) the death of the body 1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended 1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell 1b1) the power of death 1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin 2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, 2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell 3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell 4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

Greek Lexicon

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon defines "thanatos" as:

death, the extinction of life, whether naturally, Lk. 2:26; Mk. 9:1; or violently, Mt. 10:21; 15:4; imminent danger of death, 2 Cor. 4:11-12; 11:23; in the New Testament spiritual death as opposed to zwh (life)in its spiritual sense, in respect of a forfeiture of salvation, Jn. 8:51; Rom. 6:16, et. al.

Ibid, p. 199

Yes, the wages of sin is death in this mortal life, but not another "death" in the sense of our eternal souls.

Some theologians such as John Stott have fallen into error by denying the permanence of people in Hell. It is true that many places in the Bible refer to destruction and perishing. However, it also says, "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever". The Devil, beast, and false prophet torment, Basanisthosontai in Greek, forever and ever (Rev 20:10)

A house that is destroyed by fire, can still have its shell standing.


Consider this, if a reprobate person was not driven to insanity when they first entered the Lake of Fire, it is possible their sanity could become questionable by the second million years. A person still has consciousness and some rationality left, but definitely less rationality than when they entered. Even if a person’s rationality/possibly consciousness diminished by 50% every hundred years, it would never reach zero. Thus there could be an initial destruction (of all hope, etc.) when a person enters, Hell, a never-ending process of destruction (rationality, etc.) and also a permanence (soul, existence, etc.) Of course, God has not told us that the "etc.", and it is not something we need to know all about if we are not going to experience it.

The Justice of the Lake of Fire

Whether you personally believe this or not, makes no difference to me.

But what you teach, a person dying a literal second death at the judgment, is a form of annihilationism, and as such, is not allowed in this area.

If you wish to insist on teaching this, I insist you restrict yourself and this to the Unorthodox Theology section.

God Bless

Till all are one.​

 

[Mikecpking]

Where do you get the idea that a soul is eternal? The bible teaches plainly there is no such thing as an immortal soul

Judges 16:30
Numbers 23:10
Ezekiel 18:4

etc

 

[Timothew]

Whether you personally believe this or not, makes no difference to me.

But what you teach, a person dying a literal second death at the judgment, is a form of annihilationism, and as such, is not allowed in this area.

If you wish to insist on teaching this, I insist you restrict yourself and this to the Unorthodox Theology section.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Well, that's one way to discuss a thing. Bash your opponent with the rulebook because your argument fails.

Very well, goodbye.

 

[phoenixdem]

Management, could those of us who still believe in the Holy Scriptures as the inspired word of God have a forum where we wouldn't have to put up with the nonsense?

 

[Timothew]

Management, could those of us who still believe in the Holy Scriptures as the inspired word of God have a forum where we wouldn't have to put up with the nonsense?

Yeah, I'd like that too, but it seems that I will have to leave CF to find a place where people read the Holy Scriptures.

 

[OzSpen]

Mike,

Where do you get the idea that a soul is eternal? The bible teaches plainly there is no such thing as an immortal soul
Judges 16:30
Numbers 23:10
Ezekiel 18:4
etc

I get it from the Bible.

Matthew 10:28, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

It obviously indicates immortality if it cannot be killed, even though the exact words, "immortal soul," are not mentioned. A soul that cannot die by being killed lives on and on forever. Just as the word, "trinity," is not used in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught.

Jesus' words are that we are not to "fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul" but that we should "fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." In this verse, "soul" must refer to that part of a human being that exists after death. There is no other way around this verse. It cannot equate "soul" with "person" or "life." It would be ridiculous to make it mean "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the life," or "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the person."

This verse has no meaning unless there is some aspect of human beings that lives on after the body is dead. When Jesus speaks of the soul and body he is obviously speaking of the entire person. The word "soul" represents the entire non-physical part of a human being.

Sincerely, Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Well, that's one way to discuss a thing. Bash your opponent with the rulebook because your argument fails.

Very well, goodbye.

If you wish to discuss unorthodox doctrines, you may do so in Unorthodox Theology.

Christian Forums - FAQ: Christian Forums Rules / Terms of Service

Historically, Baptists have believed in the eternal punishment of the unsaved, unrepentant.

1. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption,1 but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:2 the souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies;3 and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torment and utter darkness reserved to the judgment of the great day;4 besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledgeth none.
   
2. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive shall not sleep but be changed;5 and all the dead shall be raised up with the self same bodies, and none other;6 although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls for ever.7
   
3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonour; the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honour, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.8

Footnotes: ​

1. Ge 3:19; Ac 13:36.
2. Ecc 12:7.
3. Lk 23:43; 2Co 5:1,6,8; Php 1:23, Heb 12:23.
4. Jude 6-7; 1Pe 3:19; Lk 16:23-24.
5. 1Co 15:51-52; 1Th 4:17.
6. Job 19:26-27.
7. 1Co 15:42-43.
8. Ac 24:15; Jn 5:28-29; Php 3:21.

The Philadelphia Confession, 1742, Chapter 33, Of the State of Man After Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead

1. God hath appointed a day wherein He will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ;1 to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day not only the apostate angels shall be judged,2 but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth, shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.3
   
2. The end of God's appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient;4 for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and glory, with everlasting reward, in the presence of the Lord: but the wicked who know not God, and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast into eternal torments,5 and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.6
   
3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin,7 and for the greater consolation of the godly, in their adversity,8 so will He have the day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come,9 and may ever be prepared to say, "Come, Lord Jesus, come quickly".10 Amen.

Footnotes: ​

1. Ac 17:31; Jn 5:22, 27.
2. 1Co 6:3; Jude 6.
3. 2Co 5:10; Ecc 12:14; Mt 12:36; Ro 14:10,12; Mt 25:32-46.
4. Ro 9:22-23.
5. Mt 25:21,34; 2Ti 4:8.
6. Mt 25:46; Mk 9:48; 2Th 1:7-10.
7. 2Co 5:10-11.
8. 2Th 1:5-7.
9. Mk 13:35-37; Lk 12:35-40.
10. Rev 22:20.

Ibid, Chapter 34, Of the Last Judgment

This is also said here:

1806 Mississippi Baptist Association Articles of Faith | The Reformed Reader

Principles of Faith of the Sandy Creek Association | The Reformed Reader

The New Hampshire Confession of Faith | The Reformed Reader

treatise of faith and practices of free will baptists

abstract of principles contents

Compend of Christian Doctrines Held by Baptists, 1866 | The Reformed Reader

Articles Put Forth by the Baptist Bible Union of America | The Reformed Reader

1925 Baptist Faith and Message

Faith and Message | The Reformed Reader

So, when you teach that the unsaved, unrepentant will be destroyed, die a second death, is to teach contrary to accepted Baptist beliefs in America of the last 269 years!

And to accuse me of not being one who does not:

read the Holy Scriptures

Is a bald face lie.

You were presented with definitions that counter your defintions. And yet you accuse us of not reading the scriptures?!?

That is funny.

Yeah, I'd like that too, but it seems that I will have to leave CF to find a place where people read the Holy Scriptures.

I hate to see you go, but if you insist, go. Find a place where:

"...they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;" -2 Tim. 4:3 (KJV)

Would you care to give a proper interpretation of:

"kai apeleusontai outoi eiV kolasin aiwnion, oi de dikaioi eiV zwhn aiwnion." -Mt. 25:46 (GNT)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Most specifically: "kolasin aiwnion"

"kolasiV" -1) correction, punishment, penalty

Greek Lexicon

"aiwnion" -1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be 2) without beginning 3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

Greek Lexicon

How can Jesus lie and say there will be everlasting/eternal/without end, punishment if the person is destroyed, dead?

I guess Jesus lied huh?

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Deacon Dean,

How can Jesus lie and say there will be everlasting/eternal/without end, punishment if the person is destroyed, dead?

I guess Jesus lied huh?

I think that part of the issue is that people do not think that "punishment" = continuous punishing. However, as you have pointed out so well and quoted from Baptist confessions and the Greek NT, eternal, forever and ever, means that this punishment is experienced forever and ever. It is the same word for "everlasting" as for "everlasting life".

R. C. H. Lenski said in his commentary that Matt. 25:46

"settles the question: hell is as eternal as is heaven; heaven no more so than hell" (The Interpretation of St. Matthew's Gospel. Hendrickson, p. 1001).

I appreciate your stand for the fundamentals of the faith.

In Christ, Oz

 

[DeaconDean]

Deacon Dean,


I think that part of the issue is that people do not think that "punishment" = continuous punishing. However, as you have pointed out so well and quoted from Baptist confessions and the Greek NT, eternal, forever and ever, means that this punishment is experienced forever and ever. It is the same word for "everlasting" as for "everlasting life".

R. C. H. Lenski said in his commentary that Matt. 25:46

I appreciate your stand for the fundamentals of the faith.

In Christ, Oz

Thanks.

Folks can say there is no hell, or no lake of fire, but Jesus preached on that more than any other subject.

Seems to me that it was important enough for Him to warn us about it, that we would be remiss not to preach it ourselves.

R.C. Sproul, teaching on hell, says:

Perhaps the most frightening aspect of hell is its eternality. People can endure the greatest agony if they know it will ultimately stop. In hell there is no such hope. The Bible clearly teaches that the punishment is eternal. The same word is used for both eternal life and eternal death. Punishment implies pain. Mere annihilation, which some have lobbied for, involves no pain. Jonathan Edwards, in preaching on Revelation 6:15-16 said, “Wicked men will hereafter earnestly wish to be turned to nothing and forever cease to be that they may escape the wrath of God.” (John H. Gerstner, Jonathan Edwards on Heaven and Hell [Orlando: Ligonier Ministries, 1991], 75.)

Hell, then, is an eternity before the righteous, ever-burning wrath of God, a suffering torment from which there is no escape and no relief. Understanding this is crucial to our drive to appreciate the work of Christ and to preach His gospel.

R.C. Sproul on Hell

If they don't want to believe, that is on them, but don't accuse me of not reading or studying.

Since I started seminary, that (reading/studying) is very important to me.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[OzSpen]

Dean,

There is an aspect of hell that we don't discuss very often but a short time ago, I put some summary points together on this aspect of hell.

Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

1. Since God is "the righteous Judge" (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matt. 10:14-15 states, "And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town" (ESV).

So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matt. 11:21-24.

4. Luke 12:47-48 speaks of many blows and few blows: "And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more" (ESV).
The lesson is that where one has greater privileges, there will be greater responsibilities. J. C. Ryle warned: "The saddest road to hell is that which runs under the pulpit, past the Bible and through the midst of warnings and invitations."[1]

5. When Jesus criticised the religious leaders at his time on earth, he said that "such men will be punished more severely" (NIV, see Mark 12:38-40). This clearly indicates degrees of punishment in hell.

6. John's vision of the judgment against "Babylon" (Rev. 18:6-7) indicates degree of punishment in proportion to sin committed.

7. Other verses to contemplate include Mark 9:42 and Rom. 2:5. John Blanchard writes: "Every day the sinner lives, every selfish penny he makes, every unholy pleasure he enjoys, every ungrateful breath he takes, are storing up God's anger against him."[2]

8. We need to remember that:

a. Only God's kind of justice will be experienced in hell;
b. There will be degrees of punishment, but
c. That is nothing to gloat about because punishment in hell is eternal, no matter what it is like.
​

The seriousness of sin against the Almighty God is what sends unbelievers to hell. Degrees of punishment in hell do not lessen the eternal dimensions of hell and its suffering. For a more detailed assessment of God’s view of hell, see my article, “Hell & Judgment.”

[1][FONT=&quot]John Blanchard, Whatever Happened to Hell? Darlington, Co. Durham, England: Evangelical Press, 1993[/FONT], p. 183.
[2] Ibid., p. 185. This comment is based on what Blanchard considers are the "terrifying words" (p. 185) of Roman 2:5.

In Christ, Oz

 

[rstrats]

re: "How can Jesus... say there will be everlasting/eternal/without end, punishment if the person is destroyed, dead?"
　
Because that is what the punishment consists of - everlasting/eternal/without end destruction and death.

 

[Mikecpking]

Mike,

I get it from the Bible.

Ozpen,
The bible states the nephesh (translated as soul) dies in these 3 passages..This is from the bible.

It obviously indicates immortality if it cannot be killed, even though the exact words, "immortal soul," are not mentioned. A soul that cannot die by being killed lives on and on forever. Just as the word, "trinity," is not used in the Bible, the doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught.

Jesus' words are that we are not to "fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul" but that we should "fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." In this verse, "soul" must refer to that part of a human being that exists after death. There is no other way around this verse. It cannot equate "soul" with "person" or "life." It would be ridiculous to make it mean "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the life," or "do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the person."

Matthew 10:28 does not mean that. The word 'psuche' translated as 'soul' is also translated as 'life' and Jesus was stating that people who kill Christians for their faith ultimately could not take away eternal life. Even in the grave, the 'psuche' is bound up in the body until it decays to dust.

This verse has no meaning unless there is some aspect of human beings that lives on after the body is dead. When Jesus speaks of the soul and body he is obviously speaking of the entire person. The word "soul" represents the entire non-physical part of a human being.

Sincerely, Oz

Soul in the bible never means the non physical part of a person, it means life, a breathing creture, the whole person or a even a corpse.

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon Search Results

Result of search for "nephesh": 5315 nephesh neh'-fesh from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):--any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.
​

 

[DeaconDean]

Dean,

There is an aspect of hell that we don't discuss very often but a short time ago, I put some summary points together on this aspect of hell.

Are there degrees of punishment in hell?

1. Since God is "the righteous Judge" (2 Tim. 4:8), we would expect that sinners would be punished according to the extent of their sin. This is what the Bible affirms.

2. Matt. 10:14-15 states, "And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town" (ESV).

So it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than for those who do not welcome and listen to the apostles. This is an amazing statement: it is going to be fairer for those who committed sexual immorality in Sodom & Gomorrah than for those who rejected the gospel. What is this saying about punishment in hell?

3. A similar affirmation of degrees of punishment can be found in Matt. 11:21-24.

4. Luke 12:47-48 speaks of many blows and few blows: "And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more" (ESV).
The lesson is that where one has greater privileges, there will be greater responsibilities. J. C. Ryle warned: "The saddest road to hell is that which runs under the pulpit, past the Bible and through the midst of warnings and invitations."[1]

5. When Jesus criticised the religious leaders at his time on earth, he said that "such men will be punished more severely" (NIV, see Mark 12:38-40). This clearly indicates degrees of punishment in hell.

6. John's vision of the judgment against "Babylon" (Rev. 18:6-7) indicates degree of punishment in proportion to sin committed.

7. Other verses to contemplate include Mark 9:42 and Rom. 2:5. John Blanchard writes: "Every day the sinner lives, every selfish penny he makes, every unholy pleasure he enjoys, every ungrateful breath he takes, are storing up God's anger against him."[2]

8. We need to remember that:

a. Only God's kind of justice will be experienced in hell;
b. There will be degrees of punishment, but
c. That is nothing to gloat about because punishment in hell is eternal, no matter what it is like.
​

The seriousness of sin against the Almighty God is what sends unbelievers to hell. Degrees of punishment in hell do not lessen the eternal dimensions of hell and its suffering. For a more detailed assessment of God’s view of hell, see my article, “Hell & Judgment.”

[1][FONT=&quot]John Blanchard, Whatever Happened to Hell? Darlington, Co. Durham, England: Evangelical Press, 1993[/FONT], p. 183.
[2] Ibid., p. 185. This comment is based on what Blanchard considers are the "terrifying words" (p. 185) of Roman 2:5.

In Christ, Oz

I have to admit, I agree with you, and I too believe there will be varying degrees of punishment for the guilty.

Arthur W. Pink, James P. Boyce, and Charles Hodge all speak of the Justice of God as one of the divine attributes of God.

Charles Hodge says:

He is a righteous ruler; all his laws are holy, just, and good. In his moral government He faithfully adheres to those laws. He is impartial and uniform in their execution. As a judge he renders unto every man according to his works. He neither condemns the innocent, nor clears the guilty; neither does He ever punish with undue severity.

Systematic Theology - Volume I | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

James P. Boyce said:

By justice is meant that rectitude of character which leads to the treatment of others in strict accordance with their deserts. The justice of God differs in no respect from this attribute as seen among his rational creatures; except that his justice must be perfect while theirs is imperfect, and his must be impartial, while theirs is partial...To all, therefore, he must deal out the most absolute justice, whatever they deserve, only what they deserve, and the full measure of their deserts.

Founders Ministries | Boyce's Abstract of Systematic Theology--Chapter 11

Arthur W. Pink said:

Now the wrath of God is as much a Divine perfection as is His faithfulness, power, or mercy. It must be so, for there is no blemish whatever, not the slightest defect in the character of God; yet there would be if "wrath" were absent from Him!..The very nature of God makes Hell as real a necessity, as imperatively and eternally requisite as Heaven is. Not only is there no imperfection in God, but there is no perfection in Him that is less perfect than another.

16. The Wrath of God

Folks, do not think I was too harsh. I do stand on the Fndamental principles of Baptist beliefs.

Our friend who gave his own view of what he observes as scriptures saying, left out some definitions. Definitions which if were in, would show that the one single definition they chose, wasn't necessarily the only rendering.

I submit:

And Here is the Scriptural Support why I don't believe in the fire torture pit.

Matt 7:13​

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

​

There were 13 such references to "destruction" as dying a second time at the judgement.

The Greek word does not necessarily mean a literal second death.

I submit:

The strickly NT use links up with that of the OT. Thus "einai eiV apwleian" in the curse of Acts 8:20 has almost an OT ring. THe term used for eternal destruction in the Synoptics; Mt. 7:13: "h odoV...eiV thn apwleian" (anton. zwh) and esp. in Paul and John: Rom. 9:22: "skeuh...eiV thn apwleian" (anton. doxa); Phil. 1:28: "endeixiV apwleiaV"; 3:19: "wn to teloV apwleia"; 1 Tim. 6:9: "eiV oleqron kai apwleian"; Heb. 10:39; one who has fallen victim to destruction is called in Semitic fashion: "o uioV thV apwleiaV", as Judas in Jn. 17:12; Antichrist in 2 Thes. 2:3, "apwleia" is a favorite word in 2 Peter (2:1,3: "aireseiV apwleiaV, tacinhn apwleian...h apwleia...ou nustazei"; 3:7: "hmeran krisewV kai apwleiaV"; 3:16). Rev. 17:8, 11: "eiV apwleian upagein". What is meant here is not a simple extinction of existance (-> "apollumi", 396), but an everlasting state of torment and death.

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W, Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, 255 Jefferson, S. E., Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1964, Vol. I, "apwleia", p. 397, Albrecht Oepke, Commenting.

No folks, destroy or destruction as mentioned in the scriptures does not mean wiped out of existance. One can be dead, and yet, very much alive. i.e: "And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;" -Eph. 2:1 (KJV)

We once were dead, yet very much alive. Even death does not always mean "dead".

God Bless

Till all are one.​

 

[98cwitr]

Where do you get the idea that a soul is eternal? The bible teaches plainly there is no such thing as an immortal soul

Actually...it does!

1 Corinthians 15:52
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2nd death = eternal torment and damnation. (Matthew 25, Jude 1)

 

[Mikecpking]

Actually...it does!

1 Corinthians 15:52
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2nd death = eternal torment and damnation. (Matthew 25, Jude 1)

That is not talking about immortality of the soul, thats about resurrection! Paul was writing to the Corinthians who believed in no resurrection, just the immortal soul going to heaven or hell.

 

[DeaconDean]

Matthew 10:28 does not mean that. The word 'psuche' translated as 'soul' is also translated as 'life' and Jesus was stating that people who kill Christians for their faith ultimately could not take away eternal life. Even in the grave, the 'psuche' is bound up in the body until it decays to dust.


Soul in the bible never means the non physical part of a person, it means life, a breathing creture, the whole person or a even a corpse.

Not so, soul "yuch" (psoo-khay') and "zwh" (life - dzo-ay') are two different words.

I submit:

6. "yuch" in Contrast to the Body (Mt. 10:28).

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]God is the Giver of yucai and awmata and there awaits evil-doers a more serious conflict of the yuch and the danger of eternal torment. The doctrine of the immortal soul is plainly intimated here.[1][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

Mt. 10:28 presents God as the One who can destroy both body and yuch in Gehenna. In this regard he is contrsted with man, who can only kill the body alone and not the yuch.

In Mt. 10:28, however, the reference to God's power to destroy the yuch and swma in Hades is opposed to the idea of the immortality of the soul. (cf. Vol. VII, 1058, 15: Man is understood in the same way even when the body and soul or living force (1051, 31ff.; 1056, 40ff.; 1084, 14ff.) are complementary, Mt. 6 and par. Rather different, however, is the saying that persecutors can kill the body but not the soul, Mt.10:28 and par. Here already one finds a type of thought in which a man can stand at a distance from his body, cf. 1028, 23ff.) For it is apparent that man can be thought of only as the whole, both yuch and swma. This view of man comes up against the undeniable fact that men are killed, e.g., in the persecution of the community. As Mk. 5:38 already maintains, however, the yuch i.e., the true life of man as it is lived before God, and in fellowship with God, is not affected by this. Only the swma (cf. Vol. VII, 1058, 15) is killed here. God alone controls the whole man, yuch as well as swma. It can hardly be contested that Greek ideas have influenced the formulation -> 613, 5ff. Nevertheless, the saying is to be understood in terms of the development indicated and its point that man can end only the life which is in some way limited by the earthly swma and which is not, then, life in the true sense. As man does not really control his life, since sickness and sin already threaten it, and it is thus death rather than life, so it is not in the power of man to end it. Here again, yuch is ultimately life in the authenticity which God intended and which has still to be regarded as bodily life even in hell. Thus man can be presented as coporeal, but what affects the body does not necessarily the man himself, for whom a new body has been already prepared by God. (cf. VII, 1060, 16ff.)


[1] cf. 4 Macc. 14:6, cf. Str.-B., IV, 1036-1043

The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Gerhard Kittel, Editor, Geoffrey W, Bromiley, Translator, Wm. B. Erdmans Publishing Company, 255 Jefferson, S. E., Grand Rapids, Mi., Copyright 1974, Vol. IX, "yuch", p. 646, Karl-Wolfgang Troger, Berlin, Commenting

Sorry to disagree, but your wrong.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[98cwitr]

That is not talking about immortality of the soul, thats about resurrection! Paul was writing to the Corinthians who believed in no resurrection, just the immortal soul going to heaven or hell.

And? Immortality is immortality...and if we are raised imperishable, then it stands to reason that we can not be "destroyed" into nonexistence, yet eternally tormented.