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No Law = No Transgression = Sin no longer exists

PROPHECYKID

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the law is for the flesh..here ya go..law for living in flesh...

5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.

here too..

sin is in the flesh obviously, but why does law wake it up?

8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.

The law wakes it up in those who are living in the flesh and not the spirit. Again the text you quoted says, "FOR WHILE WE WERE LIVING IN THE FLESH". In other words, this thing happened when we were living in the flesh.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Sin uses the commands..:blush:

11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

So we see how the spiritual law is spiritual huh?

It's power kills, condemns, and rouses sin.

Are you implying it is not? It does those thing when you are living in the flesh. Live by the spirit and see what happens.
 
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Frogster

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If the law is so spiritual, why was paul released and died to it. Was paul to live out his life unspiritual?:D

If the law is so spiritual? Are you mocking the law? The bible says it is spiritual. What according to Romans 7 had Paul bound? Wasn't there a law Paul wanted to serve and he was prevented from doing so?[/QUOTE]

yo! The , holy Spirit called it worldly, elemental, as a child, power of sin, bondage...

See him!:wave:
 
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Frogster

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The law wakes it up in those who are living in the flesh and not the spirit. Again the text you quoted says, "FOR WHILE WE WERE LIVING IN THE FLESH". In other words, this thing happened when we were living in the flesh.

Still proves it was with flesh, just gal 5:16-18,.

you got anything else now?
 
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Frogster

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Are you implying it is not? It does those thing when you are living in the flesh. Live by the spirit and see what happens.

this is getting tired..i showed you that those in the Spirit, ,gal 3, could be severed from Christ, if they started getting under law, read gal5.:yawn:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Originally Posted by PROPHECYKID
Are you implying it is not? It does those thing when you are living in the flesh. Live by the spirit and see what happens
this is getting tired..i showed you that those in the Spirit, ,gal 3, could be severed from Christ, if they started getting under law, read gal5.:yawn:
These "LAW" threads usually do :)


.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Romans 4:15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Seems to be a common theme around here, to say we are not under the law but grace. I totally agree with this statement. Fellowship with Christ is not about a checklist of 613 things you must do in order to be saved, it's about faith. That is comforting.

Now ask yourself this question: Does sin still exist?

If you answered yes, you'd be right. We see sin everywhere including in ourselves.

So by logic, if there is sin there is a transgression? If there is a transgression there must be a law of some sort.

There is and it's pretty obvious. It's the Law of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:2) and it only requires two things (Luke 10:27-28):

1. Love the Lord with all your heart, this means that you put God first in your life and not second to yourself. It means trusting and delighting in the truth of God.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

That said, both of these are pretty loaded statements and actually require a lot of attentive efforts on the part of a follower of this doctrine.

My point is this: If you say there is no law, or that you're not under any law, then you are saying we are all sinless, for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Keep in mind that even though we are not under OT Law, there is still two products of the fruit of the Spirit, and that is loving God and loving others. Do this and live.


As before, lay out the framework.

Imagine a tiny village located between two Kingdoms. One a tyranny and the other under a benevolent ruler, where justice mercy and love are practiced. It is asked to pledge loyalty and it choses the good king.

The king requires the village to act loyally, in the interest of the Kingdom.

Will the king forgive disloyal behavior? He will.

Should the village folk forgive those who act disloyalty? They should.

Will the king forgive the unforgiving? He won't. It attacks the very foundation of his Kingdom.

Does the king expect the village to attack the enemy? He doesn't. They aren't equipped.

When Israel asked for the law, they asked for something they weren't equipped to do :

Jeremiah 7
22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

What was Israel supposed to do with the law? The law oppressed, it killed. What do oppressed people do? They cry out for help. What did Israel do wrong? They modified the law with their traditions so that it could be followed by men.

Romans 10
3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Knowing God's power is living under grace. The small village that knew God would defeat the tyrant lived under grace. They did not have to take on the burden. This is called the sovereign vassal paradigm. Why did Paul use words like faith instead of loyalty? Because in greco-Roman society, the Patron Client paradigm possessed the same characteristics. The Patron was a powerful person who could bestow favors, grace, remove obstacles for the client. The client only had to be loyal, speak well about the right behavior of the Patron, advertise his confidence in the ability of the Patron.

Jews were in this favored position in the Old Covenant.

Gentiles were saved by extended grace, not works, or performance, in the new covenant . They never did anything extraordinary to be included in the community /assembly of God's people. They had nothing to boast about, least of all over the Jews, who were temporarily out of favor (grace!). In fact God could reinstate the natural branches more easily in the future than when He had previously grafted in the wild branches.

Ephesians 23
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh a and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

See how the right context makes the meaning pop out.

The right meaning of law keeping in the Old Covenant was performing the Torah as a representation of God's righteousness. The law killed those who tried to carry it out.

Since God's righteousness has been manifested in the cross, the law has been fulfilled. Now those who believe can enjoy the results of that fulfillment, the blessing promised to Abraham: the appointment as heirs, partnering God in his continuing work of teaching the Way, through manifesting that Way, pushing back the darkness, through grace.

Are we under any law, as in compulsory requirement? No. We are under grace. IOW, the onus is on God to give his people work that He has prepared, in advance, that we may WALK in them.

Who are God's people? Those who show faith, loyalty.
 
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As before, lay out the framework.

Imagine a tiny village located between two Kingdoms. One a tyranny and the other under a benevolent ruler, where justice mercy and love are practiced. It is asked to pledge loyalty and it choses the good king.

The king requires the village to act loyally, in the interest of the Kingdom.

Will the king forgive disloyal behavior? He will.

Should the village folk forgive those who act disloyalty? They should.

Will the king forgive the unforgiving? He won't. It attacks the very foundation of his Kingdom.

Does the king expect the village to attack the enemy? He doesn't. They aren't equipped.

When Israel asked for the law, they asked for something they weren't equipped to do :

Jeremiah 7
22"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23"But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you will be My people; and you will walk in all the way which I command you, that it may be well with you.'

What was Israel supposed to do with the law? The law oppressed, it killed. What do oppressed people do? They cry out for help. What did Israel do wrong? They modified the law with their traditions so that it could be followed by men.

Romans 10
3For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

Knowing God's power is living under grace. The small village that knew God would defeat the tyrant lived under grace. They did not have to take on the burden. This is called the sovereign vassal paradigm. Why did Paul use words like faith instead of loyalty? Because in greco-Roman society, the Patron Client paradigm possessed the same characteristics. The Patron was a powerful person who could bestow favors, grace, remove obstacles for the client. The client only had to be loyal, speak well about the right behavior of the Patron, advertise his confidence in the ability of the Patron.

Jews were in this favored position in the Old Covenant.

Gentiles were saved by extended grace, not works, or performance, in the new covenant . They never did anything extraordinary to be included in the community /assembly of God's people. They had nothing to boast about, least of all over the Jews, who were temporarily out of favor (grace!). In fact God could reinstate the natural branches more easily in the future than when He had previously grafted in the wild branches.

Ephesians 23
3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh a and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

See how the right context makes the meaning pop out.

The right meaning of law keeping in the Old Covenant was performing the Torah as a representation of God's righteousness. The law killed those who tried to carry it out.

Since God's righteousness has been manifested in the cross, the law has been fulfilled. Now those who believe can enjoy the results of that fulfillment, the blessing promised to Abraham: the appointment as heirs, partnering God in his continuing work of teaching the Way, through manifesting that Way, pushing back the darkness, through grace.

Are we under any law, as in compulsory requirement? No. We are under grace. IOW, the onus is on God to give his people work that He has prepared, in advance, that we may WALK in them.

Who are God's people? Those who show faith, loyalty.
Yes and we're now delivered (severed) from that law.
 
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TannarDarr

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Romans 4:15
because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Seems to be a common theme around here, to say we are not under the law but grace. I totally agree with this statement. Fellowship with Christ is not about a checklist of 613 things you must do in order to be saved, it's about faith. That is comforting.

Now ask yourself this question: Does sin still exist?

If you answered yes, you'd be right. We see sin everywhere including in ourselves.

So by logic, if there is sin there is a transgression? If there is a transgression there must be a law of some sort.

There is and it's pretty obvious. It's the Law of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:2) and it only requires two things (Luke 10:27-28):

1. Love the Lord with all your heart, this means that you put God first in your life and not second to yourself. It means trusting and delighting in the truth of God.

2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

That said, both of these are pretty loaded statements and actually require a lot of attentive efforts on the part of a follower of this doctrine.

My point is this: If you say there is no law, or that you're not under any law, then you are saying we are all sinless, for where there is no law there is no transgression.

Keep in mind that even though we are not under OT Law, there is still two products of the fruit of the Spirit, and that is loving God and loving others. Do this and live.

It's Grace. That relives you from the law. You have no penalty. Read about Paul wanting the people to have clear conscience when facing God. Read how lacking love causes fear of punishment in 1 johbn 4.

If you accepted Grace, you are a member of a priesthood that preexisted the law, Melchizedek's.

Add Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

Problem is, people will read this, decide they like how it sounds, proclaim themselves as qualified and conclude they don't sin, when they don't, actually meet the scriptural qualifications to make that claim.
 
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TannarDarr

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Absolutely. He was under YHVH's Law. (I do not distinguish between alleged different "orders" of priesthoods.)


What was that law?

And are there any other parts of the Bible you have removed? Perhaps until I buy YOUR edition, we have nothing to discuss.

There were no Jews, there was no LAW that requires circumcision that Paul discusses.

Christ defended the Decalogue/Sabbath, and condemned the Pharisees for their extra additions and self importance from them, to the law they were given.
 
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ananda

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What was that law?
YHVH's Law is YHVH's Law, given in Gen-Deu and in Messiah's Words.

And are there any other parts of the Bible you have removed? Perhaps until I buy YOUR edition, we have nothing to discuss.
Why, must everyone agree to use YOUR edition you have added books to? :D

There were no Jews, there was no LAW that requires circumcision that Paul discusses.
I care not what any Pharisee teaches (Mt 16:6,11,12, cf Acts 23:6).

Christ defended the Decalogue/Sabbath, and condemned the Pharisees for their extra additions and self importance from them, to the law they were given.
I agree with this. BTW, the Pharisees also subtracted from YHVH's Law with their man-made traditions. This is yet another reason I don't follow any Pharisee. Why do you follow one? ;)
 
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TannarDarr

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YHVH's Law is YHVH's Law, given in Gen-Deu and in Messiah's Words.
So you are going to presume things into existence and get mad if we can't read your mind or accept your definition.
SOOOOO what was the LAW of MELCHIZEDEK'S TIME is the question. You not having an answer is the quandry.



Why, must everyone agree to use YOUR edition you have added books to? :D
Points for humor. :) But if you feel I've added, please point out what, I don't want to assume it was just an opportunistic funny when there was a point too.

I care not what any Pharisee teaches (Mt 16:6,11,12, cf Acts 23:6).

Didn't realize Jesus was a pharisee. Learn something new every day.

I agree with this. BTW, the Pharisees also subtracted from YHVH's Law with their man-made traditions. This is yet another reason I don't follow any Pharisee. Why do you follow one? ;)

which one do I follow?

I follow Christ and listen to those HE appointed to carry His church forward and establish it. If you meant Paul, then I'd ask, why do you basically tell Jesus he failed and chose someone who was teaching the wrong things. Paul was chosen by God, approved of first by the Church as witnesses, and then by the Apostles as affirmation. Who's teaching is corroborated by the Apostle Jesus loved.



YOU seem to be saying, the Christ got it wrong.

OR do you include the Christ as one of the Pharisees??? some do...
 
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TannarDarr

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We are not under the law, was teh statement,
You said, netzarim, that was a big assumption.
Melchizedek is who Jesus' priesthood is fashioned after.
It existed before the Levitical/Aaronic laws. So WHAT LAW is relevant. Your ambiguous, leave you a way out to save face answers, are only making this a difficult discussion.
 
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ananda

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So you are going to presume things into existence and get mad if we can't read your mind or accept your definition.
Why are you presuming that I am mad? This is a discussion forum, and I we are here to present our unique perspectives, not to engage in quarrels.

SOOOOO what was the LAW of MELCHIZEDEK'S TIME is the question. You not having an answer is the quandry.
It is YHVH's Torah. The same Torah that existed in Job's time.
Points for humor. :) But if you feel I've added, please point out what, I don't want to assume it was just an opportunistic funny when there was a point too.
My canon does not include the Pauline writings or Hebrews.
Didn't realize Jesus was a pharisee. Learn something new every day.
I was referring to Paul. Paul declared that he is a Pharisee. Messiah warned me to not follow the teachings of Pharisees.

which one do I follow? I follow Christ and listen to those HE appointed to carry His church forward and establish it. If you meant Paul, then I'd ask, why do you basically tell Jesus he failed and chose someone who was teaching the wrong things. Paul was chosen by God, approved of first by the Church as witnesses, and then by the Apostles as affirmation. Who's teaching is corroborated by the Apostle Jesus loved.
I disagree with all of the above.

YOU seem to be saying, the Christ got it wrong.
Nope, Messiah didn't get it wrong. But some will lie that they "heard from Christ, or heaven". Take Joseph Smith, for example.

OR do you include the Christ as one of the Pharisees??? some do...
Messiah was not a Pharisee.
 
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ananda

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We are not under the law, was teh statement,
You said, netzarim, that was a big assumption.
Melchizedek is who Jesus' priesthood is fashioned after.
It existed before the Levitical/Aaronic laws. So WHAT LAW is relevant. Your ambiguous, leave you a way out to save face answers, are only making this a difficult discussion.
I am not being ambiguous. Your question was ambiguous, thus my response.

I believe that priests are all equal. There is no "Aaronic priesthood" as opposed to "Melchizedek's priesthood" or otherwise. They are all simply and equally priests. Their ultimate purpose is the same, to worship and glorify YHVH and minister to His people.

YHVH's Law is fixed in my view, so your question as to "WHAT LAW" is irrelevant to my worldview.
 
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