No-Knock Warrant Results in Death of Minneapolis Man

[variant]

Saying picking it up was wit intention to use it and not just show it off?

They didn't give the man any time to wake up or think. Usually when people are asleep and woken in the middle of the night they are bleary eyed and unable to focus for a few seconds.

What would have improved the situation? A knock on the door of course.

 

[disciple Clint]

There are, btw, circumstances in which it's legal for a citizen to use deadly force against police officers. I didn't realize that was true until I myself was on a jury in a case of a man who claimed to have been defending himself against a police officer.

While that may be true in extremely rare cases, it in no way is any justification for what we are seeing with officers being killed, and I am certain that you did not intend to infer that killing police officer is justifiable. In this specific case there is no doubt that the officer defended himself from a deadly threat.

 

[timothyu]

I don't hold favours in either direction but like to ask questions. It would seem though that a warrant designed to avoid the loss of evidence might serve no purpose in seeking a murder suspect. They already had the body.

 

[Yttrium]

It doesn't matter if Locke was pointing the gun at the police or not. Police saw a gun in his hand, and that gave them justification to shoot. There's nothing wrong with what the police on the scene did.

The problem was with the selection of the apartment for the no-knock entry. The policy needs work.

 

[variant]

It doesn't matter if Locke was pointing the gun at the police or not. Police saw a gun in his hand, and that gave them justification to shoot. There's nothing wrong with what the police on the scene did.

The problem was with the selection of the apartment for the no-knock entry. The policy needs work.

It wasn't the wrong apartment, the guy was sleeping on someone else's couch. The police obtained a no-knock warrant for the purpose of making sure they could get all the evidence in a murder investigation (the murder being already in custody).

What we have is the police disregarding the safety of anyone who happened to be inside the apartment and instead prioritized their own safety and the gathering of evidence above this guys life, who they shot because he was unhappily in the apartment and was sleeping with a gun next to him.

Had they knocked, he would have woken up and actually got a conscious choice in whether he cooperated.

 

[disciple Clint]

You may think it's reasonable to break into a house where someone is sleeping, startle them awake, and then murder them because they happen to have a gun, but I do not.

Well there you go again with the irresponsible changing of the facts and attempting to make this a murder. How many business could get burned down and how many innocent people could die as a result of firing up a crowd with false information.

 

[variant]

Well there you go again with the irresponsible changing of the facts and attempting to make this a murder. How many business could get burned down and how many innocent people could die as a result of firing up a crowd with false information.

It's not false, that man is dead and it is the polices fault. He was killed because of his reaction to having armed people kick the couch he was sleeping on while he was armed.

If you want someone to blame for the ultimate social fallout, blame the people who prioritized evidence gathering over the guys safety.

 

[Yttrium]

It wasn't the wrong apartment, the guy was sleeping on someone else's couch.

I didn't say it was the wrong apartment. I was assuming that the police got the right apartment.

 

[variant]

I didn't say it was the wrong apartment. I was assuming that the police got the right apartment.

Ok sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[RDKirk]

RDKirk said: ↑
There are, btw, circumstances in which it's legal for a citizen to use deadly force against police officers. I didn't realize that was true until I myself was on a jury in a case of a man who claimed to have been defending himself against a police officer.

While that may be true in extremely rare cases, it in no way is any justification for what we are seeing with officers being killed, and I am certain that you did not intend to infer that killing police officer is justifiable. In this specific case there is no doubt that the officer defended himself from a deadly threat.

There are, in fact, situations in which using deadly force against a police officer is justifiably, which is precisely why I was in a jury to determine if that particular case was justified.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It certainly does. This reeks of bad police practices.

How do you know?

I have no idea how many no knock warrants are issued and executed in a year...nor do I have some standard by which to measure them successful or failures....

So even if you see this as a failure, how do you know it isn't within the acceptable range of human error?

That is to say, it is one of only a few cases like it...where you would watch the camera and believe the cop was wrong....

But those few cases represent a tiny tiny fraction of the total cases, with the rest found acceptable?

I've looked...I have no idea how many of these warrants are issued and executed.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I did just post the details.

They were after evidence in a murder investigation, the person shot wasn't the suspect.

Ok.

I consider this a bad use of a no knock warrant, their stated reason for needing it was destruction of evidence and they prioritized it over the lives of anyone in the apartments they raided.

Ok.

There's an unknown there....right? Exactly how many people, and who, is in the apartment.

This cannot be conclusively known until the door is open and they start searching.

 

[Ana the Ist]

It's not false, that man is dead and it is the polices fault.

Well fault implies guilt. The police are responsible.

He was killed because of his reaction to having armed people kick the couch he was sleeping on while he was armed.

Yeah. You could frame it that way. Another way would be to say that sleeping next to a gun carries risks. Another would be that keeping certain people as friends or associates is also a mistake...

There's endless ways to frame it.

If you want someone to blame for the ultimate social fallout

Fallout over what? Even if I agree that the incident was a matter of murder...it appears to have been completely unplanned and unexpected. You can't magically plan for unknowns...it's impossible to have 1 million people do a job that extremely simple and none of them make a mistake...

What exactly is the problem?

 

[timothyu]

it appears to have been completely unplanned and unexpected.

More of a workplace health and safety issue

 

[disciple Clint]

They didn't give the man any time to wake up or think. Usually when people are asleep and woken in the middle of the night they are bleary eyed and unable to focus for a few seconds.

What would have improved the situation? A knock on the door of course.

When you are entering into an apartment where the renter is being investigated for murder, and has a reputation for being armed, knocking at the door would endanger the lives of the officers.

 

[disciple Clint]

RDKirk said: ↑
There are, btw, circumstances in which it's legal for a citizen to use deadly force against police officers. I didn't realize that was true until I myself was on a jury in a case of a man who claimed to have been defending himself against a police officer.



There are, in fact, situations in which using deadly force against a police officer is justifiably, which is precisely why I was in a jury to determine if that particular case was justified.

Can you name the last time that defense was successful?

 

[RDKirk]

Can you name the last time that defense was successful?

That particular case was one time.

 

[disciple Clint]

That particular case was one time.

I am interested to find out more about that case, any idea where I can find some details?

 

[Desk trauma]

Can you name the last time that defense was successful?

This one.

 

[disciple Clint]

This one.

Thanks, very interesting.