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No-Knock Warrant Results in Death of Minneapolis Man

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Happy Cat
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When you are entering into an apartment where the renter is being investigated for murder, and has a reputation for being armed, knocking at the door would endanger the lives of the officers.

You can always make the case where police are safer by not knocking, but doing so prioritizes police safety over everyone else.

As far as my understanding of the criminal justice system, we are supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, and, it's hard to presume someone innocent if you have to break into their apartment while they are sleeping with guns out and will shoot at the first provocation.

It's hard to parse in a country where we have a right to own a gun to protect ourselves and a right to protect our houses.
 
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Happy Cat
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False, this was a no knock warrent, given the fact that between excercising said warrant and shooting the victim dead was just 9 seconds, he had every legal right to reach for and pointing his gun on persons unknown breaking into the be room he was in, he was given no time to respond to their identifying themselves.

The guy was put in a situation where the coldest military vet probably would be dead and the people who shot him within a few seconds of breaking in where he was sleeping were legally obligated to presume him innocent.
 
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Happy Cat
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If people want to end no knock warrants...that's fine. You just get to see these incidents played out a different way. Maybe they surround the building and once the subject shoots, the police riddle the building with bullets...potentially killing anyone unarmed and innocent inside. These situations in the past frequently turned into long hostage situations which are much harder to manage and allow for the destruction of evidence. Would you prefer seeing that instead? You should consider greatly increasing police funding.

What do you want to happen?

I want to see what happened if they had knocked yes. In that case the guy would have actually have been given the chance to peacefully comply.

I'll bet it makes the news less.
 
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Happy Cat
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I would agree with that if he did not have the time or coherence to think gun.

It's the middle of the night and you are asleep on the couch. The door to your house (right behind you) opens and you have a gun next to you.

What do you suppose your chances are that you don't pick it up?
 
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Goonie

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The guy was put in a situation where the coldest military vet probably would be dead and the people who shot him within a few seconds of breaking in where he was sleeping were legally obligated to presume him innocent.
Legally obligated? They broke in as far as I'm aware using a legitimate no knock warrant,. As soon as they saw him holding a gun, apparently pointing sadly there was only one possible outcome. I'm not saying it's right, but legally there is no case.
 
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Happy Cat
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Legally obligated? They broke in as far as I'm aware using a legitimate no knock warrant,. As soon as they saw him holding a gun, apparently pointing sadly there was only one possible outcome. I'm not saying it's right, but legally there is no case.

The idea behind our laws is that people are innocent until proven guilty, how could this possibly be the case where we willfully put them in situations where they have no chance and are killed before they could possibly become compliant?

This man was executed and his crime was picking up a gun off a coffee table because the room he was sleeping in was unexpectedly stormed by police.
 
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timothyu

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What do you suppose your chances are that you don't pick it up?
I understand that but what are also the instinctive odds a person might play dead until the brain kicked in. His choice of instinct speaks volumes.
 
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Goonie

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The idea behind our laws is that people are innocent until proven guilty, how could this possibly be the case where we willfully put them in situations where they have no chance and are killed before they could possibly become compliant?
And using a legitimately given no knock warrant,on entering a room and finding someone holding a gun, turning towards you, what would you do? Innocent until proven guilty is in regard to trials, and it applies to the police as well.
 
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Nithavela

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I understand that but what are also the instinctive odds a person might play dead until the brain kicked in. His choice of instinct speaks volumes.
What exactly do they say?
 
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I understand that but what are also the instinctive odds a person might play dead until the brain kicked in. His choice of instinct speaks volumes.

All it really tells us is he is the kind of person who sleeps with a gun near him.

Something I keep being told is a right that we have.
 
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Pommer

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I understand that but what are also the instinctive odds a person might play dead until the brain kicked in. His choice of instinct speaks volumes.
Your last sentence just oozes with irony!
 
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Nithavela

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Where Do Gun Owners Keep Their Guns At Night?

where-do-gun-owners-keep-their-guns.jpg
 
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Ana the Ist

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Locke did have the legal right to hold a gun and point it at an apparent intruder to where he was sleeping, according to the 2nd amendment. Locke was fully licensed to have that gun.

Apparently.

He broke no laws.

Well none we know of. I don't see that it matters if he did. Whether or not, for example, he had a bag of cocaine on him doesn't change the question of the legality of shooting him.

The fact that the police also had a legal right to enter the apartment as they did is evidence that our laws are contradictory and lead to such outcomes. That is why I do not blame the officers who entered the apartment. They were just doing what they were told. I blame the city itself for executing Locke. Unfortunately there is no means to put a city on trial for murder. By the way, Minneapolis is my city. I live here and I am disgusted by what my city has done.

You blame the city itself?

The two rights our founders saw as fundamentally intertwined are both...
1. The right to own property.
2. The right to defend oneself from attacks (physically).

If these seem badly considered, I promise that they aren't. The right to own property is considered in the 4th amendment, the right to bear arms is secured in the 2nd.

Obviously, where the "contradiction" you speak of lies in the conflicting standards by which both men are asked meet as a legally defined self defense shooting.

1. The cop has to meet a rather complicated and very uniquely defined set of circumstances that have been made clear by the courts repeatedly. In short, we need to consider that if we knew what he knew at the moment of shooting and perceived what he did....is the shooting reasonable?

I haven't watched it, but it sounds like this is probably the case. If he saw a man reaching for a pistol, in this situation, it's a reasonable conclusion that he was going to shoot it. The cop doesn't have to wait on bullets to fly past him.

The man on the other hand doesn't actually have to have any idea who he is shooting at in the least. He simply has to claim he perceived some lethal danger to himself...even if he claims that it wasn't clear what the danger was.

We can imagine how we might react to our door being kicked in....we might imagine ourselves as in imminent danger. It's justifiable regardless of who is coming through the door because it is his property (or rather it can be assumed that the intruder has violated his property to do him harm).

Of course, in this case...it isn't his home and it isn't his property. Even if it was, the warrant allows the violation of property.

For some reason, and I suspect it's too protect self defense and gun owners....we don't change his standard for legal self defense. It's the same as if he was the owner of the apartment.

One shooter....the cop....has to be reasonably perceiving a threat at the very moment of shooting.

The man shot is not responsible for correctly perceiving a threat at all.

We like this standard, because it requires so much more from the cop than the man sleeping. It's two different standards though. If you required the average citizen to correctly identify a target before shooting....well what's the fun in that?
 
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Ana the Ist

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I believe it was wrong to need to break in without knocking here. There is no evidence to the contrary given what the warrants were for.

I believe that the suspect was being charged with murder?
 
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returntosender

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Police didn't use a battering ram. They used a key. And Locke didn't point a gun at them. If you watch the video, while the gun is visible, he didn't point it at the police. Locke had something like 9 seconds to realize what was going on. thats no time when you are woken up.
Well then there's a problem . The key worked so they didn't have the wrong house as one news cast said.
News last night said that they were looking for his cousin.
 
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Ana the Ist

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And how do I get from there to the justification to go in without knocking in the middle of the knight with a swat team?

Because cops are asked to do a job that puts them in significant danger. They also encounter situations where they are expected to minimize danger to others.

Well if you have to arrest someone who has...lets imagine...a history of violent crime, a history of attacking police, is known to be armed....what exactly do you want the police to do?

Walk up, knock on the door, say "hey! suspect!...I'm a cop. I'm here to arrest you for murder, and then I'm going to search the premises for any evidence of illegal activity!"

And then what? Calmly wait outside? How does that change the scenario if he was asleep?

Should the police wait politely until he wakes up and try again?

What exactly do you want to happen? Even if he wakes up....I sincerely doubt he is going to say "I'll be out in just a minute!"?

At what point do the police enter the building? Or do you imagine some way that they don't?
 
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Ana the Ist

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The no knock warrant was a death sentence for this man. If you want to try to frame it in a way that that outcome is essentially OK feel free to try.

Ok...

Hazard of association.


It's not a mistake it is a policy.

I agree. I'm saying you seem to think it's a mistake. Others seem to think it's a mistake.

From the sound of it...the cop made a reasonable decision.


Giving the police the power to storm into peoples houses unannounced is an acceptance that stuff like this will happen.

Well it's not as if they weren't there for a reason.

If you ignore the reason and pretend cops just go around kicking in doors all willy nilly....then yes, that would be an injustice.

That's not what happened though.

The poster I was replying to basically accused ME of the social fallout because people are going to be upset over such a policy.

I don't know what social fallout really means....

Like the reputation of the police?
 
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