"No full preterist views..." ?

[Notrash]

As far as my understanding the bible is not quite clear on how the end will take place or if it takes place. It is only clear that Christ must appear to those who obtain salvation.

How did Christ appear to Stephen as he was being stoned? Not saying that we are to make a theological doctrine based only on it, but to observe the incident.

 

[gwynedd1]

How did Christ appear to Stephen as he was being stoned? Not saying that we are to make a theological doctrine based only on it, but to observe the incident.

Hello Notrash,

It is interesting that Stephen immediately saw him.

 

[gwynedd1]

Full preterism is as old as the church (2 Timothy 2:18,
2 Thessalonians 2:2), just as the post-trib rapture
doctrine is as old as the church (Matthew 24:29-31,
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7).

Hello Bible2,

Contrast this with Judaism which is futurism just more so. Until Christ they were right. In 2 Thessolonians the apostasy had not occurred yet. However in 1-2 John and Jude we see that it did. As time goes on everyone becomes a preterist. It is simply when and as I explained we know 2 Thessolonians was not current to 1-2 John and Jude.

Futurism per se shouldn't be confused with
dispensationalism, as one can hold to futurism while
rejecting dispensationalism's false dichotomy between
the church and Israel (contrast Ephesians 2:12-19,
Galatians 3:29, Romans 11:17).

Fair enough.

Matthew 24:30-31 will be fulfilled literally. It's the
same event as 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and 1 Thessalonians
4:15-17.

What is literal about this? Take your pick between the angels and fire or what Paul means by "and to us as well". Also I do take it more literal than you do

2 Thessalonians

6For after all (N)it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well (O)when the Lord Jesus will be revealed (P)from heaven (Q)with His mighty angels (R)in flaming fire,

Since I consider Josephus a record of it:

Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

I believe those were the angles AND I believe that the promise was kept to those in Thessalonica "and to us as well". Thus I am literal on both counts. You are not.

In Revelation 1:1, "shortly come to pass" can be
understood in light of 2 Peter 3:8-9, for none of the
events of Revelation chapters 6:3-21:8 have occurred
yet.

Revelation 1:1 is didactic. Revelation 6 is in a vision. Taking a vision literally and a didactic statement figuratively is not remotely literal.

Matthew 24:30 will be fulfilled literally. The Greek
word translated as "tribes" can be translated as
"kindreds" (Revelation 7:9, 13:7, 5:9), and the Greek
word translated as "earth" can mean the planet
(Matthew 6:10, 11:25, 28:18).

Revelation 1:7 will be fulfilled literally. Even those
long dead and in Hades could be made to see the second
coming (cf. Luke 16:23).

Sure it can also mean the shore line getting off a boat.(Luke 8:27, same word)
Raliens in a thousand year will think Caterpillar moved around the planets
because of earth moving equipment.

Also kindred means family tribe or race. In each of your references it says:

from (N)every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues(7:9)
over (T)every tribe and people and tongue and nation(13:7)
every tribe and tongue and people and nation.(5:9)

You can be sure each of those contain the word "eth-nos" not "foo-lay" only.

Compare Revelation 1:7

Every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will.(1:7). In every other context

In this one case eth-nos is NOT used. The context is even those who pierced him. What is literal about people 2000 years later piecing Jesus?


Here are all the uses of this word foo-lay which is translated to tribe. The only time it means everybody is when its next to eth-nos or nations.

http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G5443/phule.htm

This word is used 31 times:

Matthew 19:28: "judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Matthew 24:30: "then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and"
Luke 2:36: "the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher: she was of a great age,"
Luke 22:30: "judging the twelve tribes of Israel."
Acts 13:21: "of Kish, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years."
Romans 11:1: "an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin."
Philippians 3:5: "of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews;"
Hebrews 7:13: "are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance"
Hebrews 7:14: "Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning"
James 1:1: "Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
Revelation 1:7: "him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of"
Revelation 5:5: "Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root"
Revelation 5:9: "blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people,"
Revelation 7:4: "a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children"
Revelation 7:5: "Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:5: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:5: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:6: "Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:6: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:6: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:7: "Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:7: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:7: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:8: "Of the tribe of Zebulun were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe"
Revelation 7:8: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:8: "twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand."
Revelation 7:9: "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and"
Revelation 11:9: "the people and kindreds and tongues and nations"
Revelation 13:7: "him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Revelation 14:6: "to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"
Revelation 21:12: "are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:"

Revelation chapters 2-3 are addressing seven actual
first-century local church congregations in seven
cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

Thats how I see it.

Matthew 24:17 will be fulfilled literally for those
in the church who have roof-top patios or gardens
and will be in them at the time that the abomination
of desolation occurs (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4).

It says those who are in Judea quite literally.

Ezekiel 37:11 suggests that Ezekiel 37:1-4 could be
symbolic of the loss of hope of Israel in its
Babylonian Captivity. Ezekiel 37:12 could refer both
symbolically to the return of Israel to its land after
the Babylonian Captivity, and literally to the
resurrection of believers at the second coming
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23, 1 Thessalonians 4:16,
Revelation 20:4-6).

Ezekiel 38:4 is literal, as is the rest of Ezekiel
chapters 38-39, which will be fulfilled after the
millennium (Revelation 20:7-9).

Indeed the flagship of futurism's "literal" interpretation of Ezekiel , all instead turned into symbolism.

 

[Bible2]

Everyone will be a preterist only when Revelation 21:4
has come.

---

Revelation 1:1 is didactic, but must be understood in
light of 2 Peter 3:8-9, for Revelation chapters 6-22
haven't happened yet.

Revelation 6:4-8 is a vision foretelling a literal war
which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics,
will end up killing one-fourth of the world. The "great
sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4b) could represent
nuclear weapons.

Revelation 6:12-14 is a vision foretelling a literal,
probably volcanic, cataclysm.

---

Everything in Matthew 24:30-31 is literal, just as is
everything in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, 1 Thessalonians
4:16-17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8. We don't have to
pick between angels and fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8,
for there will be both at the second coming.

The "us" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 means that Jesus'
second coming descent to the earth in judgment will
include all believers of all times (Revelation 19:14),
for they will all have just been resurrected together
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52) and raptured into the
clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Josephus contains no record of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8,
which is the same unfulfilled event as Revelation
19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30-31.

---

Nothing in 1 John, 2 John, or Jude requires that the
apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Matthew 24:10-12
has occurred yet, for it will occur in connection with
the time of the Antichrist committing the abomination
of desolation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:31,36,
and Matthew 24:15, which hasn't occurred yet.

---

Revelation 1:7, just like Revelation 5:9, 7:9, and
13:7, is referring to all kindreds (Greek: "phule"),
of the earth, no matter whether they're Jewish or
Gentile. The fact that the Greek word phule can also
be used to refer to Jewish kindreds (tribes) only,
such as in Matthew 19:28, in no way restricts the
meaning of that Greek word to Jewish kindreds (tribes)
only. Nothing requires that the Greek word "ethnos"
has to also occur in a statement for the Greek word
"phule" in a statement to be able to refer to all
kindreds, no matter whether they're Jewish or Gentile.

---

In Matthew 24:16, "Judaea" is literal, for there are
Christians in Judaea today, both Jewish and Gentile,
and some of their houses have rooftop patios or
gardens (Matthew 24:17).

---

Revelation 20:7-9 doesn't turn Ezekiel chapters 38-39
into symbolism, but instead shows that they will be
literally fulfilled, but not until after the
millennium is over.

---

Stephen had a vision by which he was able to see into
heaven and see Jesus standing at the right hand of
God (Acts 7:56). This was not the second coming of
Jesus (Hebrews 9:28), for that won't happen until
after the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters
6-18 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hello Notrash,

It is interesting that Stephen immediately saw him.

What I found interesting was it shows JESUS standing. Guess He was a little "miffed" at the Judeans.

Acts 7:56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
59 And they stoned the Stephen, upon-calling and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

 

[gwynedd1]

What I found interesting was it shows JESUS standing. Guess He was a little "miffed" at the Judeans.

Acts 7:56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens having been opened and the Son of the Man standing out of rights of the God!"
59 And they stoned the Stephen, upon-calling and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit"

Reve 6:16 And they are saying to the mountains and to the rocks: 'Be falling on us! and hide us! from Face of the One sitting upon the Throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb-kin" [Hosea 10:8/Luke 23:30]

Hey LLJ,

Perhaps Stephen talked Jesus out of wiping them out at that point very Moses like in Exodus 32. I think Stephen was saying "please Jesus sit down a little longer and give them more time, do not stand up and destroy them on my account.

 

[gwynedd1]

Everyone will be a preterist only when Revelation 21:4
has come.

---

Revelation 1:1 is didactic, but must be understood in
light of 2 Peter 3:8-9, for Revelation chapters 6-22
haven't happened yet.

Hello Bible2,

Yes it has, unless you take visions literally and didactic section figuratively.

Revelation 6:4-8 is a vision foretelling a literal war
which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics,
will end up killing one-fourth of the world. The "great
sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4b) could represent
nuclear weapons.

It could have but it doesn't since in context it means land. Only severe vitamin D poisoning causing excess ossification could result in me missing "flee Judea" in the Gospels.

Revelation 6:12-14 is a vision foretelling a literal,
probably volcanic, cataclysm.



Everything in Matthew 24:30-31 is literal, just as is
everything in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, 1 Thessalonians
4:16-17, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8. We don't have to
pick between angels and fire in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8,
for there will be both at the second coming.

The "us" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7 means that Jesus'
second coming descent to the earth in judgment will
include all believers of all times (Revelation 19:14),
for they will all have just been resurrected together
(1 Corinthians 15:22-23,52) and raptured into the
clouds to meet Jesus in the air on his way down
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

Well then I hope God comes down real hard on them and soon because it was to give them relief from persecution.(7and to give relief to you") and if he has not intervened yet and they have been persecuting them for 2000 years then they got a whoopin in store for them thats for sure . "

Josephus contains no record of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8,
which is the same unfulfilled event as Revelation
19:11-21 and Matthew 24:30-31

Since the Judean rulers where using Rome to persecute the saints and then to find Rome against them I think perhaps there was plenty of relief.
---

Nothing in 1 John, 2 John, or Jude requires that the
apostasy of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 and Matthew 24:10-12
has occurred yet, for it will occur in connection with
the time of the Antichrist committing the abomination
of desolation of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:31,36,
and Matthew 24:15, which hasn't occurred yet.

Right , I forgot, a gathering is not a gathering, and hour is not an hour, an apostasy is not an apostasy. Everything is the opposite with the futurist decoder ring. I lost mine 15 years ago.
---

Revelation 1:7, just like Revelation 5:9, 7:9, and
13:7, is referring to all kindreds (Greek: "phule"),
of the earth, no matter whether they're Jewish or
Gentile. The fact that the Greek word phule can also
be used to refer to Jewish kindreds (tribes) only,
such as in Matthew 19:28, in no way restricts the
meaning of that Greek word to Jewish kindreds (tribes)
only. Nothing requires that the Greek word "ethnos"
has to also occur in a statement for the Greek word
"phule" in a statement to be able to refer to all
kindreds, no matter whether they're Jewish or Gentile.

Yes the only time foo-lay does not mean tribe is when you decide. I already showed you in every one of those examples of yours, eth-nos was right next to it.

---

In Matthew 24:16, "Judaea" is literal, for there are
Christians in Judaea today, both Jewish and Gentile,
and some of their houses have rooftop patios or
gardens (Matthew 24:17).

There is no Judea today. Ah yes, the futurist "literal" interpretation again. Except for time, people, places and things its literal. So then that means modern day Turkey fits perfectly with the churches of Asia. Don't mind they are now mosques.

Revelation 20:7-9 doesn't turn Ezekiel chapters 38-39
into symbolism, but instead shows that they will be
literally fulfilled, but not until after the
millennium is over.

Right the decoder ring. A joining isn't a joining. Churches in Judah, Samaria and Galilee where the different kingdoms of God.
---

Stephen had a vision by which he was able to see into
heaven and see Jesus standing at the right hand of
God (Acts 7:56). This was not the second coming of
Jesus (Hebrews 9:28), for that won't happen until
after the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters
6-18 is over (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7-21).

No one said it was.

 

[Bible2]

Revelation chapters 6-22 are almost completely
literal, and the few parts that aren't are usually
explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 17:9-18). It's
only preterism which must employ a decoder ring, as
it were, to try in vain to make Revelation chapters
6-22 somehow match the events of 70 AD.

Revelation 1:1 can't be literal from the viewpoint of
men, for Revelation chapters 6-22 have never been
fulfilled; so Revelation 1:1 must be read in the clear
light of 2 Peter 3:8-9.

Regarding Revelation 6:8, nothing in its context
requires that "earth" doesn't mean the entire planet,
just as it does in Luke 21:25-28,33,35.

Revelation 6:8 will happen years before Matthew 24:15.
For after Revelation 6:8, all of Revelation 6:9-9:21
has to happen before Matthew 24:15 (Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4) is fulfilled by the Antichrist
at the start of his 42-month world-reign (Revelation
13:4-18), which is shown from four different angles
in Revelation chapters 11-14. None of these things
have ever happened.

Regarding Revelation 1:7, nothing about the ancient
Greek word "phule" requires that "ethnos" has to
accompany it in a statement for "phule" to be able to
refer to "kindreds" of the earth, whether Jewish or
Gentile.

While modern day Turkey doesn't fit perfectly with the
churches of Asia (Revelation 1:11), Thyatira (Revelation
2:24-25), for example, still exists today as a city:
the Turks call it "Akhisar". And it could very well
still contain some believers.

The destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD didn't
end Rome's persecution of the church. Revelation 2:10,
3:10 could refer to the persecution under Domitian in
the 90's AD. Irenaeus says that John saw Revelation
near the end of Domitian's reign.

---

The gathering together of the church at the second
coming in Matthew 24:29-31 has never been fulfilled.
It won't occur until after that part of the
tribulation which will occur after the abomination
of desolation of Matthew 24:15 (Daniel 11:31,36,
2 Thessalonians 2:4). And Matthew 24:29-31 is the same
coming of Jesus and gathering together of the church
as 2 Thessalonians 2:1 and Revelation 19:7, which
can't happen until after 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and
Revelation 13:4-18 have been fulfilled, for at the
coming of Jesus to gather together the church he will
also destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,
Revelation 19:7,20).

Regarding Matthew 24:15, there is a Judaea today. The
Jews in Israel still refer to what the world calls
"the West Bank" as "Samaria and Judaea", for that's
the territory which it encompasses.

---

The apostasy of 1 John 2:19 is not the same apostasy as
2 Thessalonians 2:3, for the latter will occur in
connection with the fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 2:4,
which has never happened.

The last "time" in 1 John 2:18 is not a literal hour,
but an indefinite period of time. Otherwise, by the
time the people John was originally writing to
received his letter, a last literal hour would have
been long over.

---

Acts 9:31 didn't fulfill Revelation 20:7-9 (Ezekiel
chapters 38-39), but simply refers to the churches in
various regions which consisted of believers descended
from the kingdom of Judah (Jews). Ezekiel 37:19 awaits
a future fulfillment during the coming millennium, which
will include believers descended from those in the
kingdom of Israel who went into the Assyrian captivity
(Ezekiel 37:21, 2 Kings 17:6,23).

---

Regarding 2 Thessalonians 1:7, the first-century
Thessalonians and Paul are already resting in death
(Isaiah 57:1-2), just as during the coming persecution
of the church by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10)
some in the church will enter into rest via their
dying (Revelation 14:12-13). The entire church of all
times will also rest at the second coming, in that
while the church will be behind Jesus in the sky during
his descent against the nations (Revelation 19:14-21),
he alone will do the work of bringing God's judgment
and wrath against the nations (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation
19:15b,11), which will gather together at Armageddon
(Har Megiddo, Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) in an
attempt to fight Jesus at his return (Revelation
16:14-16, 19:19-21).

 

[Notrash]

Revelation chapters 6-22 are almost completely
literal, and the few parts that aren't are usually
explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 17:9-18). It's
only preterism which must employ a decoder ring, as
it were, to try in vain to make Revelation chapters
6-22 somehow match the events of 70 AD.

The 'decoder effect" is that there was a great judgment and curses promised to those of the old covenant who did not recieve the transformation of the New Covenant of Deut 30. That curse and plagues were promised at the end of Deut in chs 31 and 32. It was referring to the end of the age of the conditional land/nation covenant which was refered to by Matt 24:3,4 as the end of the age.

Regarding Revelation 6:8, nothing in its context
requires that "earth" doesn't mean the entire planet,
just as it does in Luke 21:25-28,33,35.

Revelation would have also had a mixed audience with many Jews reading it, especially as written in 64-65 AD. The Jews would have understood 'earth' as meaning their promised land or the extent of the Roman empire.

The destruction of Jerusalem by Rome in 70 AD didn't
end Rome's persecution of the church. Revelation 2:10,
3:10 could refer to the persecution under Domitian in
the 90's AD. Irenaeus says that John saw Revelation
near the end of Domitian's reign.

But First... From Steve Gregg's Revelation: Four Views​

Irenaeus' Quote (Used as Grounds for Late Revelation Date Theory)
"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the Revelation. For ‘he’ [John?] or ‘it’ [Revelation?] was seen . . . towards the end of Domitian’s reign." (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3)
"Several church fathers indicate that Domition was emperor when John wrote Revelation. All of them, however, seem to base their information on the testimony of Irenaeus" (Revelation, p.17)
"The meaning of Irenaeus' statement has been debated. What was seen toward the end of Domition's reign? Was it the vision which John "beheld"? or was it the apostle himself, who was "seen... face to face" by those who testify? The phrase "that was seen..." may be a corruption of an original that read, "He was seen..." If this is true, then it only proves that John lived into the reign of Domition, though he may have written the Apocalypse much earlier." (Revelation, p.17)
"Those who originally translated Irenaeus' work into English complained of the poor condition of the manuscript evidence for his work. They wrote: 'The great work of Irenaeus, now for the first time translated into English, is unfortunately no longer extant in the original. It has come down to us only in an ancient Latin version, with the exception of a greater portion of the first book, which has been preserved in the original Greek, through means of the copious quotations made by Hippolytus and Epiphanius. The text, in both Latin and Greek, is often most uncertain." (Revelation, p.17-18)
"Since the text is admittedly "uncertain" in many places, and the quotation in question is known only from a Latin translation of the original, we must not place too high a degree of certainty upon our preferred reading of the statement of Irenaeus." (Revelation, p.18)
"Earlier in the passage, Irenaeus refers to "all the.. ancient copies" of Revelation. This presupposes that that the book had been around a good long while before this statement was written. If there were "ancient copies," was not the original more ancient still? Yet, in Irenaeus estimation, the time of Domition's reign was not considered to have been very ancient history, for he speaks of it as "almost in our day." How could Irenaeus speak of ancient copies" of a work the original of which has been written "almost" in his own time?" (Revelation, p.18)
"With reference to his mention of Domition's reign, there are grounds for believing that Irenaeus was speaking of the time of John's last being seen by the brethren, rather than the time of John's having seen the apocalyptic vision." (Revelation, p.18)

 

[gwynedd1]

Here is a whole chapter of 16 all fulfilled.



The bowl Judgments:

We will see that John's vision accurately depicted the wrath that came upon Judea.


Revelation 16

3The second angel poured out his bowl (G)into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living [a]thing in the sea died.

Josephus Wars of the Jews Book 3 chapter 9 section 3

And much lamentation there was when the ships were dashed against one another, and a terrible noise when they were broken to pieces; and some of the multitude that were in them were covered with waves, and so perished, and a great many were embarrassed with shipwrecks. But some of them thought that to die by their own swords was lighter than by the sea, and so they killed themselves before they were drowned; although the greatest part of them were carried by the waves, and dashed to pieces against the abrupt parts of the rocks, insomuch that the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies; for the Romans came upon those that were carried to the shore, and destroyed them; and the number of the bodies that were thus thrown out of the sea was four thousand and two hundred. The Romans also took the city without opposition, and utterly demolished it.

Revelation 16

9Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they (U)blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they (V)did not repent so as to (W)give Him glory. 10Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the (X)throne of the beast, and his kingdom became (Y)darkened; and they gnawed their tongues because of pain,

Josephus Wars of the Jews Book 3 Chapter 4 section 1

By this means he provoked the Romans to treat the country according to the law of war; nor did the Romans, out of the anger they bore at this attempt, leave off, either by night or by day, burning the places in the plain, and stealing away the cattle that were in the country, and killing whatsoever appeared capable of fighting perpetually, and leading the weaker people as slaves into captivity; so that Galilee was all over filled with fire and blood; nor was it exempted from any kind of misery or calamity, for the only refuge they had was this, that when they were pursued, they could retire to the cities which had walls built them by Josephus.

Revelation 16

12The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the (AD)great river, the Euphrates; and (AE)its water was dried up, so that (AF)the way would be prepared for the kings (AG)from the east.

13And I saw coming out of the mouth of the (AH)dragon and out of the mouth of the (AI)beast and out of the mouth of the (AJ)false prophet, three (AK)unclean spirits like (AL)frogs;

Tacitus Histories book 5

Early in this year Titus Caesar, who had been selected by his father to complete the subjugation of Judaea, and who had gained distinction as a soldier while both were still subjects, began to rise in power and reputation, as armies and provinces emulated each other in their attachment to him. The young man himself, anxious to be thought superior to his station, was ever displaying his gracefulness and his energy in war. By his courtesy and affability he called forth a willing obedience, and he often mixed with the common soldiers, while working or marching, without impairing his dignity as general.He found in Judaea three legions, the 5th, the 10th, and the 15th, all old troops of Vespasian's. To these he added the 12th from Syria, and some men belonging to the 18th and 3rd, whom he had withdrawn from Alexandria. This force was accompanied by twenty cohorts of allied troops and eight squadrons of cavalry, by the two kings Agrippa and Sohemus, by the auxiliary forces of king Antiochus, by a strong contingent of Arabs, who hated the Jews with the usual hatred of neighbours, and, lastly, by many persons brought from the capital and from Italy by private hopes of securing the yet unengaged affections of the Prince. With this force Titus entered the enemy's territory, preserving strict order on his march, reconnoitring every spot, and always ready to give battle. At last he encamped near Jerusalem.

---
I will briefly interject that this is a work describing actions about the Parthia which competed for the region. This was an action that went poorly for Rome as I recall However the context of the Kings of the East is quite clear. We have three Kings of the East involved in the Judean war stationed about the river Euphrates. This better identifies who these were in Tacitus Histories. A perfect fit for one of the bowl judgments.
---

BOOK XIII. - Publius Cornelius Tacitus, The Works of Tacitus, vol. 2 - Annals (Books 4-6, 11-16) [120 AD]

Whilst these and the like discourses employed the public, Nero, to supply the Legions in the East, ordered recruits to be raised through the neighbouring provinces, and the Legions themselves to be posted near to Armenia; as also that the ancient Kings, Agrippa and Antiochus should make ready their forces, such as might enable them to invade the territories of the Parthians; and that bridges should be forthwith made upon the Euphrates. To Aristobulus he moreover committed the lesser Armenia, and the region of Sophenes to Sohemus, with the ensigns of Royalty and title of Kings. There arose likewise to Vologeses a competitor for his Crown, even his own son Vardanes. Hence the Parthians withdrew from Armenia, yet so as if they meant to return, and only postponed the war.


Revelation 16

17Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon (AX)the air, and a (AY)loud voice came out of the (AZ)temple from the throne, saying, "(BA)It is done."18And there were flashes of (BB)lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was (BC)a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth(land), so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.

Tacitus book 5 Histories

the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds. The doors of the inner shrine were suddenly thrown open, and a voice of more than mortal tone was heard to cry that the Gods were departing. At the same instant there was a mighty stir as of departure



Revelation 16

19(BE)The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell (BF)Babylon the great was (BG)remembered before God, to give her (BH)the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.

Josephus Wars of the Jews Book 5 Chapter 1

4. And now there were three treacherous factions in the city, the one parted from the other. Eleazar and his party, that kept the sacred first-fruits, came against John in their cups.


Revelation 16

21And (BJ)huge hailstones, about [c]one hundred pounds each(a talent), came down from heaven upon men; and men (BK)blasphemed God because of the (BL)plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

Josephus Wars of the Jews book 5 chapter 6

Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, THE STONE COMETH (15) so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow. Yet did not the Jews, under all this distress, permit the Romans to raise their banks in quiet; but they shrewdly and boldly exerted themselves, and repelled them both by night and by day.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Here is a whole chapter of 16 all fulfilled

Greetings. If I believed that, I would be a full-preterist as after the last bowl is poured out IT IS FINISHED in my humble view......

Note Reve 16:17 and 21:6..........

Reve 16:17 and the seventh messenger pours out the bowl of him upon the air and came out a Voice, great, from the sanctuary of-the heaven from the throne saying "it has become"/gegonen <1096> (5754).

Reve 21:6 And He said to me: "it-has-become/gegonen <1096> (5754). [Reve 16:17]
I am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. I, to the one thirsting, shall be giving out of the spring of the water of the life gratuitously.

 

[Bible2]

Deuteronomy 30 was fulfilled as early as the
destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 586 B.C.
(2 Chronicles 36:17-19), the subsequent Babylonian
Captivity (2 Chronicles 36:20-21), and the subsequent
return of the Jews from that captivity (2 Chronicles
36:22-23, Ezra).

Deuteronomy 30 doesn't refer to the new covenant,
but to the keeping of the old covenant Mosaic law
(Deuteronomy 30:10-11,8,2).

Deuteronomy 30 also refers to the land/nation
covenant made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
(Deuteronomy 30:20b,18-19,16,9,5).

Deuteronomy 31:16-29 refers to Israel's breaking of
the Mosaic old covenant and the judgment it suffered
in 586 B.C. (not to mention 722 B.C.) because of that.

Deuteronomy 32:46-47 refers to the keeping of the old
covenant Mosaic law, and to the land/nation covenant
which preceded the old covenant Mosaic law (Genesis
15:18, 26:4, Exodus 32:13), and which wasn't ended
with that law, but became part of the new covenant of
faith (Galatians 3:8-29, Romans 4:13-25).

The old covenant ended not in 70 AD, but before that,
at the moment that the new covenant came into effect
upon Jesus' death (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:16,
10:14-20, Mark 15:37-38). Jesus completely abolished
the old covenant on the cross (Ephesians 2:15,
Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19).

The end of the world (or age) in Matthew 24:3b wasn't
in 70 AD, for Matthew 24:4-51 hasn't happened yet.
Jesus said that the church would see the abomination
of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet
(Matthew 24:15), which is Daniel 11:31,36, which is
2 Thessalonians 2:4, which didn't happen in 70 AD.
Also Matthew 24:29-31 is the same as 2 Thessalonians
2:1 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, which didn't happen
in 70 AD. When Jesus comes to gather together the
church, he will destroy the Antichrist
(2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20).

Revelation 19:7-21 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 didn't
happen in 70 AD, just as Revelation 13:4-18 didn't
happen then, or Revelation 6:12-17, or Revelation
8:7-9:21, or Revelation 11:3-19. Preterism will have
to pull out a pretty big decoder ring, as it were,
if it wants to try (only to utterly fail) to show how
all of these passages, as well as all the rest of
Revelation chapters 6-22, were fulfilled in 70 AD.

---

There is no proof that Revelation was written in
64-65 AD, instead of "towards the end of Domitian&#8217;s
reign" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3).

What was seen toward the end of Domitian's reign was
what had just been referred to: "the apocalyptic
vision. For that was seen no very long time since,
but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian's
reign" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3).

The whole point of the passage is that if the name
of the Antichrist was meant to be known "in this
present time", then it would have been revealed in
the apocalyptic vision of the book of Revelation,
which had been seen not long before that time:

"We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing
positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it
were necessary that his name should be distinctly
revealed in this present time, it would have been
announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision.
For that was seen no very long time since, but almost
in our day, towards the end of Domitian's reign"
(Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3).

This testimony of Irenaeus has never been proven
false, nor has it ever been proven that the phrase
"that was seen" is a corruption of an original that
read, "he was seen". If we go down that road, we can
make the early church fathers say anything that we
want, just by saying that anything that we disagree
with is a "corruption", which we can then replace
with whatever purportedly "original" statement we
want.

Irenaeus could speak of "the most approved and ancient
copies" of Revelation (Against Heresies 5:30:1), even
if the original had been written "almost in our day",
if by most "ancient" he simply meant the oldest. The
original Greek (or oldest Latin translation) of the
word translated into English as "ancient" would need
to be shown in order to determine all the possible
senses of that word. If Irenaeus wrote "Against
Heresies" around, say, 180 AD, then even if Revelation
had been written 115 years earlier, in 65 AD, even
the original wouldn't have been "ancient" in the sense
that we use the word "ancient", for we don't refer to
books written in 1893 as "ancient".

And if Irenaeus could refer to the oldest copies of
Revelation as "ancient", even though they might be
only, say, 105 years old (if Revelation was written
in 65 AD, and the oldest copies were made ten years
later, and "Against Heresies" was written in 180 AD),
then Irenaeus could refer to the oldest copies of
Revelation as "ancient", even though they might be
only, say, 75 years old (if Revelation was written in
95 AD, and the oldest copies were made ten years
later, and "Against Heresies" was written in 180 AD).

---

"Earth" in Revelation 1:7 and Matthew 24:30 means the
planet, just as it does in Revelation 14:7, 21:1, and
Matthew 6:10, 28:18.

---

It hasn't been shown that Revelation 16 has been
fulfilled.

Revelation 16:2 has never happened, just as
Revelation 13:14-18 has never happened.

Revelation 16:3 has never happened, just as
Revelation 8:8-9 has never happened. Josephus'
"Wars of the Jews" 3:9:3 doesn't say that every
living soul died in the sea, only that some people
died in one little part of the sea.

Revelation 16:4-7 has never happened, just as
Revelation 8:10-11 has never happened.

Revelation 16:8-9 has never happened, just as
Revelation 8:7 has never happened. Josephus'
"Wars of the Jews" 3:4:1 doesn't say that the sun
scorched men with fire and great heat, only that
the Romans started some fires in Galilee.

Revelation 16:10-11 has never happened, just as
Revelation 8:12 has never happened.

Revelation 16:12-16 has never happened, just as
Revelation 19:19-21 has never happened. Neither
Tacitus' "Histories" book 5, nor his "Annals" book 13,
says that the Euphrates was dried up, so that the
kings of the east might cross it and gather together
with all of the other kings of the world at Armageddon
(Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) in an
attempt to fight Jesus at his return (Revelation
19:19-21). Nor does Tacitus' "Histories" book 5 or his
"Annals" book 13 say that three unclean spirits like
frogs came out of the mouth of the dragon, the beast,
and the false prophet, or that these spirits of devils,
working miracles, went forth to the kings of the whole
world to gather them to the battle against Jesus. All
Tacitus' "Histories" book 5 says is that Titus
gathered some forces together to fight Jerusalem; and
all Tacitus' "Annals" book 13 says is that Nero
placed some forces near the Euphrates and ordered that
some bridges be built so that they might attack the
Parthians to the east.

Revelation 16:17-21 has never happened, just as
Revelation 6:12-17 has never happened. Neither
Tacitus' "Histories" book 5, nor Josephus' "Wars of
the Jews" 5:1:4 or 5:6 says that there came a great
voice out of the temple in heaven (cf. Revelation
11:19), from the throne of God himself (cf.
Revelation 4:2), saying, "It is done"; or that there
was an earthquake larger than any that has occurred in
the history of mankind, which broke up the great city
into three parts, and caused the cities of the nations
to fall, and every island to flee away, and the
mountains to not be found; or that there fell upon men
a great hail out of heaven, every hailstone about the
weight of a talent. All Tacitus' "Histories" book 5
purports is that a voice came from the temple on
earth, saying that "the Gods" were departing. And all
Josephus' "Wars of the Jews" 5:1:4 says is that there
were three factions in Jerusalem; and all Josephus'
"Wars of the Jews" 5:6 says is that the Romans cast
some large rock (not hail) stones into Jerusalem.

 

[Warstones]

You're right.

It's no wonder that Paul said they destroy the faith of some:

2 Timothy 2
16Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.
​

But then you misunderstand what a full Preterist believes. Preterists do believe that prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, and that we are now in the kingdom, but why is that depressing? As Christians it gives us the freedom to evangelise and not have to worry about being raptured or left behind. We are free to improve the world and stop it being destroyed.

As for the above passage, Paul was writing before 70 AD and could not therefore, have been talking about Preterists.He was talking about the Gnostics, who are very different from Preterists.

 

[&Abel]

there are so many aspects of revelations that defy this weird(least its weird IMO) view that revelations has been fulfilled

how do you explain death being swallowed up in victory?(I'll leave it there cause honestly it would take me a long time to compile all the inconsistency's with this theory)

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

there are so many aspects of revelations that defy this weird(least its weird IMO) view that revelations has been fulfilled

how do you explain death being swallowed up in victory?(I'll leave it there cause honestly it would take me a long time to compile all the inconsistency's with this theory)

You might want to bring that up on the Unorthodox board where the JWs, Mormons and Messianics are since full preterism cannot be discussed on Orthodox Christian boards.....

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=130
Unorthodox Theology

 

[gwynedd1]

there are so many aspects of revelations that defy this weird(least its weird IMO) view that revelations has been fulfilled

how do you explain death being swallowed up in victory?(I'll leave it there cause honestly it would take me a long time to compile all the inconsistency's with this theory)

Hi Abel,

My view is I have not been resurrected or judged yet so I don't think on a personal basis Revelation has been fulfilled.
Now as to the rest its actually pretty clear if people get a handle on the context which was Judea. Land/earth in Greek is a generic word that must be defined by context not the other way around.

In a thousand years what will Raeliens think about Caterpillar and their "earth moving equipment" ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But then you misunderstand what a full Preterist believes.

Preterists do believe that prophecy was fulfilled in 70 AD, and that we are now in the kingdom, but why is that depressing? As Christians it gives us the freedom to evangelise and not have to worry about being raptured or left behind. We are free to improve the world and stop it being destroyed.

As for the above passage, Paul was writing before 70 AD and could not therefore, have been talking about Preterists.He was talking about the Gnostics, who are very different from Preterists.

Greetings.

If Partial Preterists say they are now in the Kingdom, what is that event of Gog/Magog in Chapt 20 and when did/does the New Jerusalem/Heaven-Land come down?

 

[gwynedd1]

You might want to bring that up on the Unorthodox board where the JWs, Mormons and Messianics are since full preterism cannot be discussed on Orthodox Christian boards.....

http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=130
Unorthodox Theology

Let their posts learn in righteous flames.

 

[&Abel]

Hi Abel,

My view is I have not been resurrected or judged yet so I don't think on a personal basis Revelation has been fulfilled.
Now as to the rest its actually pretty clear if people get a handle on the context which was Judea. Land/earth in Greek is a generic word that must be defined by context not the other way around.

In a thousand years what will Raeliens think about Caterpillar and their "earth moving equipment" ?

come to think of it I haven't been resurrected either!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by gwynedd1 Hi Abel,

My view is I have not been resurrected or judged yet so I don't think on a personal basis Revelation has been fulfilled.
Now as to the rest its actually pretty clear if people get a handle on the context which was Judea. Land/earth in Greek is a generic word that must be defined by context not the other way around.

In a thousand years what will Raeliens think about Caterpillar and their "earth moving equipment" ?

It has it's mind on "earthly" things

Reve 17:9 Here the mind, the having wisdom. The seven heads seven Mountains are, the-where the Woman is sitting on them.

Matt 24:16 "Then those in the Judea/F let be fleeing into the Mountains."