Nicene Creed

[ArtistEd]

The Nicene Creed is just a summary of essential Christian beliefs, so what's the problem?

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Since we know from Luke, that all Scripture was fullfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, it would be impossible for the Bible to be true and still have those parts of the Nicene creed be a still future fullfillment. So, you can believe those parts of the Nicene Creed if you choose to as being future. But such contradictory error to the scripture as that, can hardly be called essential to the Christian faith. In fact, it is this error that has turned the Word of truth into an endless stream of science fiction novels and meetings under the banner of "Bible Prophecy".

Luke 21
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled

 

[parousia70]

Such as ?

I certainly don't see this happening, at least not in the Orthodox Church.

Well Oblio,
Even you must admit that this phrase does not remain true for eternity:

"He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead"

Even the staunchest of futurists must assert that once Christ finally "comes again", then this part of the creed will become obsolete and untrue, requiring a re-write reflecting, at the very least, a change in the "tense" of the above creedal phrase.

In contrast, the rest of the text, with the possible exception of "we look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come", remains true for all eternity.

Once the 2nd coming is past, how would you suggest the re-write go?

 

[parousia70]

parousia70...the idea of a 'future change' in the Creed occurs not with changes in the words.

It occurs when the Holy Spirit takes one person or many into the grace of trust. Prayerfully appoach the Creed ... and believe beyond what the words imply.

One can meditate on it and discover that it not only was/is a faith declaration.. it's a mini capsule of things said and unsaid.

I haven't heard of the changes you suggest... but I hope that there is change found among those that feel the Creed needs adjustment.

Rose,
If you see my above post, I'm sure you can agree with the pending necessity of a change in the wording of the creed.

God bless.

 

[Oblio]

Even you must admit that this phrase does not remain true for eternity:

I would suggest that since much of our theology, worship and prayers exist outside of time, it may not have to change. c.f. our belief that each Liturgy we participate in the Mystical Supper, and worship with the heavenly hosts both now, in the past, and throughout all ages.

 

[parousia70]

I would suggest that since much of our theology, worship and prayers exist outside of time, it may not have to change. c.f. our belief that each Liturgy we participate in the Mystical Supper, and worship with the heavenly hosts both now, in the past, and throughout all ages.

I agree your thoughts on the heavenly liturgy, though don't believe that such a present reality (comunion of saints) is Biblically possible until after the parousia.

 

[Oblio]

We know that the Saints are presently with the Lord (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord) and we know that they are also with us and among us (surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses).

As it has been for nearly 2000 years, when we lift up our hearts unto the Lord, we the Church militant, who Mystically represent the Cherubim, are with the Saints, the Church triumphant, in eternal prayer and worship of Christ.

 

[layne]

It's my opinion that a guideline written over 1500 years ago shouldn't have to be the basis for christianity. Being a christian means following God's word. It doesn't mean we should agree with a man-made theory. We are committing sin if we judge someone's salvation according to their beliefs... this if for God and God alone to judge. If you were to research the Nicean creed, you wouldn't want to follow a doctrine imposed on early priests by Constantine. He was a pagan who worshipped a sun god, and didn't accept Christ until he was on his death bed. The few priests who rejected the Nicean creed were exhiled by Constantine. Up until the Nicean creed, there's no proof at all that the Trinity was taught by early priests. It really disgusts me to know that the "basis" for christianity is a document thought up by a non-believer.

 

[Philip]

It's my opinion that a guideline written over 1500 years ago shouldn't have to be the basis for christianity. Being a christian means following God's word. It doesn't mean we should agree with a man-made theory.

It is the belief of the Orthodox that the Creed is given by the Holy Spirit. It is not a man-made theory.

If you were to research the Nicean creed, you wouldn't want to follow a doctrine imposed on early priests by Constantine.

It was not "imposed" by Constantine.

We are committing sin if we judge someone's salvation according to their beliefs... this if for God and God alone to judge.
...
He was a pagan who worshipped a sun god, and didn't accept Christ until he was on his death bed.

What happened to not judging another's salvation?

Up until the Nicean creed, there's no proof at all that the Trinity was taught by early priests. It really disgusts me to know that the "basis" for christianity is a document thought up by a non-believer.

Have you read the Early Fathers?

 

[Oblio]

It's my opinion that a guideline written over 1500 years ago shouldn't have to be the basis for christianity. Being a christian means following God's word. It doesn't mean we should agree with a man-made theory.

Should we ignore the rest of Holy Tradition, the Bible, as well ?

What is your evidence the the Creed is manmade and not a revelation from God to His Church ?

We are committing sin if we judge someone's salvation according to their beliefs... this if for God and God alone to judge.

Agreed, no one is judging their salvation.

If you were to research the Nicean creed, you wouldn't want to follow a doctrine imposed on early priests by Constantine. He was a pagan who worshipped a sun god, and didn't accept Christ until he was on his death bed. The few priests who rejected the Nicean creed were exhiled by Constantine. Up until the Nicean creed, there's no proof at all that the Trinity was taught by early priests. It really disgusts me to know that the "basis" for christianity is a document thought up by a non-believer.

Apparently you have not reasearched the Creed of the Early Church, but are regurgitating historical falsehoods.

 

[layne]

Why on earth would God have such a creed overseen by a pagan?

Anyway, that is my opinion, as I stated.

 

[BrianV]

"Even you must admit that this phrase does not remain true for eternity:

"He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead"

Even the staunchest of futurists must assert that once Christ finally "comes again", then this part of the creed will become obsolete and untrue, requiring a re-write reflecting, at the very least, a change in the "tense" of the above creedal phrase."

When Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead, I think whether the Creed is accurate anymore or not will be the least of our concerns

Brian_V

 

[Oblio]

Why on earth would God have such a creed overseen by a pagan?

Where did you ever get this idea ?

The Creed was written by a Church council, not by St. Constantine. The formulation of the Creed was overseen (inspired if you will) by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Oblio]

When Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead, I think whether the Creed is accurate anymore or not will be the least of our concerns

There is that ! Just as Holy Scripture will have to be rewritten for like reasons, but being in full communion with God himself, I'm not quite sure we will need it either

 

[parousia70]

We know that the Saints are presently with the Lord (to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord) and we know that they are also with us and among us (surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses).

As it has been for nearly 2000 years, when we lift up our hearts unto the Lord, we the Church militant, who Mystically represent the Cherubim, are with the Saints, the Church triumphant, in eternal prayer and worship of Christ.

I agree with all of this, though I note again that while it I affirm with you this present reality, it is not biblically possible if the 2nd coming is a yet future event. (cf:John 14:3, John 3:13)

 

[parousia70]

When Christ comes again to judge the living and the dead, I think whether the Creed is accurate anymore or not will be the least of our concerns

Brian_V

So you are saying that the creeds are only temporary, and will eventually become useless, obsloete and unnecessary to the Christian?

 

[parousia70]

There is that ! Just as Holy Scripture will have to be rewritten for like reasons, but being in full communion with God himself, I'm not quite sure we will need it either

This is interesting.
Could you elaborate on this concept of "full communion with God Himself"?

What do you believe we are presently lacking in our communion with God now?

 

[Oblio]

I agree with all of this, though I note again that while it I affirm with you this present reality, it is not biblically possible if the 2nd coming is a yet future event. (cf:John 14:3, John 3:13)

The second coming preceeds the general resurrection and does not preclude us being spiritually present with the Lord at the time of our repose.

In addition, Orthodox believe that during our Divine Liturgy, we are, in fact, participating outside of temporal time and space in eternal worship. It is, literally, heaven on earth. That may not help much, and it is simply something that has to be experienced to begin to understand. Forgive my feeble attempt to explain.

 

[Oblio]

Could you elaborate on this concept of "full communion with God Himself"?

We will share in the same type of relationship with God the the persons of the Trinity share with each other. While we can never directly experience the essence of God, what He is, we will experience His energies, His uncreated grace, His love, and all that is good, for God is good.

Rev 21:3-5a KJV And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he

 

[Oblio]

What do you believe we are presently lacking in our communion with God now?

However I fail to be perfect, as He is perfect

 

[parousia70]

We will share in the same type of relationship with God the the persons of the Trinity share with each other. While we can never directly experience the essence of God, what He is, we will experience His energies, His uncreated grace, His love, and all that is good, for God is good.

However I fail to be perfect, as He is perfect

Do the saints in Heaven now "share the same type of relationship with God that the persons of the trinity share with eachother"?

Are the saints in heaven now "failing in their perfection"?