New Zealand/gun ban

[kiwimac]

I didn't know she was the Queen... or that NZ even HAD a queen.

Oh wait... you were just being snarky, you weren't really interested in how anyone else felt were you?

Nevermind.

We do have a Queen, Queen Elizabeth II. There is also a Maori King.

 

[kiwimac]

You stumble across a hog in tall grass/weeds and he decides to charge you better have an AR in .308 or larger or you will be trampled and maybe much worse.

Strange my father hunted them with a shotgun.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

I wonder if those shop-owners would have preferred to defend themselves against a violent mass of criminals using an automatic weapon rather than a revolver...

So to prevent thievery it is ok to turn mass murderer ?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

if you are not as well armed as the home invaders, your chances of making it through unscathed are decreased.

I seem to read much more often how some toddler shot his little brother with handgun hidden under a pillow and much less how some heroic citizen defended himself succesfully from home invasion because he had AR 15 in his closet.

Can you actually provide any credible link for these succesfull home defence situations ? Statistics ?

Invidual stories are not the issue I am sure there are some but you would think someone like NRA would trumpet these facts from here to hell if there was something to back this up.

 

[Lost4words]

I applaud NZ for having the strength and guts to ban these guns etc. About caring for their country.

Well done NZ.

 

[RDKirk]

We have large wild pigs in our bush country, and the boars have sharp tusks and you wouldn't want to be in the way of them when they charge. When I was young, a family friend used to go pig hunting in the back country using dogs and a knife. Often, the dogs would be gored and he would have to take them to the vet to get them stitched up.

Same when I was in Hawaii. My incident with the .44 carbine happened on the Big Island. But on Oahu, I watched guys hunting feral pig with net and knife...which was 'way too sporting for my direct involvement.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Same when I was in Hawaii. My incident with the .44 carbine happened on the Big Island. But on Oahu, I watched guys hunting feral pig with net and knife...which was 'way too sporting for my direct involvement.

Yes. You wouldn't want to get in the way of the sharp tusks, because a trip to the hospital to get stitched up costs megabucks in any U.S. state. Not like NZ where public hospital treatment is free.

 

[thecolorsblend]

So to prevent thievery it is ok to turn mass murderer ?

Of course not.

For one thing, blowing a huge mass of attacking criminal gangs away isn’t murder if it’s done in self-defense.

 

[FireDragon76]

One way of looking at it. Another is we would once again ignore the face of evil.

Not at all. People are attracted to these sorts of spectacular acts because of the notoriety and infamy associated with them. It's more about not glamorizing evil.

 

[JacksBratt]

Meh, I'm not sure about that though.

Like I said before - maybe if you were talking about simply "murder". I can't really cite statistics about the ratio of guns purchased legally vs. illegally when it comes to individual A shooting individual B in a random act of violence/homicide/etc.

But when you're talking about MASS murder - where someone walks into a place and offs 20-40-60 people...from what I know those people have pretty much all obtained their guns perfectly legally. Either walked into a walmart and bought their stuff - or took it from their folks who purchased it perfectly legally. I'm not really familiar with any cases where someone went out onto the black market and bought the gun they hosed a bunch of people with.

And that argument about how "it only effects those that obey the laws" has always seemed like a weird argument to me. It seems like people who lob that out there are saying "Well, if the black market is an option and they might find it out there, then might as well do nothing to screen them."

In other words, since it's a foregone conclusion that they might be able to find a way to get it anyway, might as well throw up your hands in defeat and grease the wheels for them to buy the guns legally and offer no impediment whatsoever.

To be honest - that strikes me as just wrong. Make them buy it on the black market. Let the batman shooters and the Adam Lanzas of the world have to work to get their guns. Let them pay black market prices. Let them have to figure all of that out. Don't just say "Well, can't do anything about it, so let them buy those firearms at Walmart".

At least that's my take on it.

Let me just say that I think that these mass shootings are serious. IDK what can be done though.

There were over 40,000 people who died in gun related crimes in the US in 2018.

It is always more tragic when it happens all at once.. 50 or more people in one event.

Sadly, but realistically, many many more are killed throughout the year and it doesn't make as much of a headline as the 50.

It is, again sadly, then used as "anti gun" fodder.

A while back a bus of touring senior citizens died in a bus accident. The Prime Minister visited the scene and made a nice speech.

Now, I'm not saying that what he did was wrong.. but seniors die every single day from cancer, car accidents, falls, dementia, and other tragic events... But... a group die and it's..........headlines a photo op.... good or bad....politics.

These events are unfortunately used as political pawns, knights and Bishops... Sad really.

You may be right, IDK, these mass shootings may be by legally obtained firearms... but... does this mean that we penalize the millions of responsible gun owners in order to avoid the use by < 0.01% of the irresponsible owners?

That, in the end, will not change anything for the 40,000 others who have died.

I don't think we should throw our hands up in desperation and open the flood gates.... I think we need more deterrents.. stiffer solid penalties for anyone convicted of gun crimes or having illegal guns.

Canada suggested this but it was shot down by the lawyers and judges who make money hand over fist while they deal with repeat criminals in the revolving door of the legal system.

That is the real weak link... in all crime... the system is a legal system... not a "Justice" system. It's a game. It's a money maker and it's politically driven and controlled.

Start there....Not with sticking band-aids on the skin.. but leaving the wound uncovered.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes. You wouldn't want to get in the way of the sharp tusks, because a trip to the hospital to get stitched up costs megabucks in any U.S. state. Not like NZ where public hospital treatment is free.

Well, I was active duty military, fighting for American freedom, so I had "socialized" medical care.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

For one thing, blowing a huge mass of attacking criminal gangs away isn’t murder if it’s done in self-defense.

Your ideal weapon for riot police is probably a minigun. Think there is a reason nobody equips them with those ?

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

That, in the end, will not change anything for the 40,000 others who have died.

Yes, but it would be much more nice to have this discussion in 2020 and point out that due to increased gun regulations only 20,000 people died in similiar circumstances.

 

[JacksBratt]

I seem to read much more often how some toddler shot his little brother with handgun hidden under a pillow and much less how some heroic citizen defended himself succesfully from home invasion because he had AR 15 in his closet.

Can you actually provide any credible link for these successful home defense situations ? Statistics ?

Invidual stories are not the issue I am sure there are some but you would think someone like NRA would trumpet these facts from here to hell if there was something to back this up.

How often do toddlers shoot their sibling compared to home invasions? Statistics say 23 toddler shootings in a year... a home invasion every 13 seconds.


If a toddler can access a firearm... it is not responsibly owned. So, of those 23 toddler shootings zero were connected to responsible fire arm owners.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

How often do toddlers shoot their sibling compared to home invasions? Statistics say 23 toddler shootings in a year... a home invasion every 13 seconds.

The question was how often someone owning a gun results in successfull defence in these home invasions so we could have a meaningful number for discussion whatever owning a gun makes you actually safer or not in these situations or whatever the number of kids, wifes , neighbours that are accidentally shot while being thought of being a burglar is the greater risk factor.

 

[RDKirk]

Yes, but it would be much more nice to have this discussion in 2020 and point out that due to increased gun regulations only 20,000 people died in similiar circumstances.

If you're not one of them and discovered that "Please don't shoot me" doesn't always work.

 

[Yekcidmij]

It looks like only about 37 guns have been turned in after NZ's gun ban:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...gun-owners-surrender-guns-christchurch-attack

 

[RDKirk]

The question was how often someone owning a gun results in successfull defence in these home invasions so we could have a meaningful number for discussion whatever owning a gun makes you actually safer or not in these situations or whatever the number of kids, wifes , neighbours that are accidentally shot while being thought of being a burglar is the greater risk factor.

Actually, that isn't the question. Morality is not a game of statistics, except maybe fore the least sophisticated of Utilitarians.

In the US, the courts have already ruled that the government at any level is not responsible or accountable for any person's safety and protection. If I call the fire department and they fail to arrive, the government is not accountable or responsible. If I call the police and they fail to arrive, the government is not accountable or responsible.

That being the case, I must be responsible and accountable for my own safety and protection. So, for instance, I have fire alarms, I have fire extinguishers, and we have a home evacuation plan. I follow recommended safety procedures for my gas furnace and water heater. Will that cover every conceivable fire emergency? Probably not. I'm sure someone can conceive of a possibility not covered. But I'm the one accountable and responsible for my family's safety, nobody else, so I do all that I believe practical and necessary.

And the same for protection against criminal violence. Unless the government or someone else is willing to accept that accountability and responsibility, it is immoral for them to prevent me from taking the steps I deem necessary.

 

[FenderTL5]

How often do toddlers shoot their sibling compared to home invasions? Statistics say 23 toddler shootings in a year... a home invasion every 13 seconds.


If a toddler can access a firearm... it is not responsibly owned. So, of those 23 toddler shootings zero were connected to responsible fire arm owners.

So, why is there no mechanism nor effort in removing weapons from the irresponsible owners?

 

[RDKirk]

It looks like only about 37 guns have been turned in after NZ's gun ban:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...gun-owners-surrender-guns-christchurch-attack

There is no NZ gun ban. It hasn't even been formally proposed in their parliament yet.

Edit: Apparently the PM has made such an edict, but the legal mechanism hasn't been put into place. Interesting that the PM can make such decisions on her own without due process of law.