New thought about Pascal's Wager

[Eudaimonist]

Not, it is sense. You are sick in brain.

It isn't "sick in the brain" to think that "the existence of the World is not proved" is a false statement.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dmitri Martila]

It isn't "sick in the brain" to think that "the existence of the World is not proved" is a false statement.

Show me the proof then. Perhaps from India people, who likes the illusive world?

 

[Eudaimonist]

Show me the proof then. Perhaps from India people, who likes the illusive world?

I'll bet that people from India believe that the world exists. They wouldn't be able to function in life otherwise.

Perhaps you are thinking that they believe that the world is an illusion, but that doesn't mean that they don't think that the world exists, just that the world changes and has no permanency, and that there are inobvious unchanging truths. Illusion for them means something like "ignorance", not non-existence.

The proof of the existence of the world is fully achieved by looking outside of your window. Nothing more is required. Your eyes provide you with that proof.

If someone were to look outside their window and truly not accept that as proof of the existence of the world, he or she would have to be locked up in an insane asylum. Such a person would truly be sick in the brain.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dmitri Martila]

If someone were to look outside their window and truly not accept that as proof of the existence of the world, he or she would have to be locked up in an insane asylum. Such a person would truly be sick in the brain.

Do you know, what is perfect solipsism? The Science can not proof or disprove one. Without proof of world and yourself, it is your blind faith: the world outside my window exists. The existence is if I see the thing. The hallucination is if I see the thing, which is not there. The existence of myself is if I feel me, the hallucination is if I feel wrong. So, it is not proved what anything exists. But in Christianity it is all proved, see the files attached. Moreover, God has created the World. It is knowledge, so without proof of God you have zero knowledge (only illusive knowledge). Thanks, Mark, my brother in Adam.

 

[Eudaimonist]

The Science can not proof or disprove one.

It is not the job of science to prove or disprove solipsism. That is the job of philosophy and life experience.

Without proof of world and yourself, it is your blind faith: the world outside my window exists.

I gave you proof. I have already succeeded in my task.

The existence is if I see the thing. The hallucination is if I see the thing, which is not there.

Without any good reason to think that I'm hallucinating, I have no good reason to deny what I see. When you cross a busy street, do you look both ways? Of course you do, since you rarely have any reason to think that you are hallucinating. There is no reason to doubt that busy streets are dangerous, and that cars are solid and can do great harm to one's body.

The existence of God, or even belief in God, will not improve matters if you are hallucinating. God can be real, and you could still be hallucinating.

Your epistemological skepticism is just a game. It isn't as powerful as you think, and your belief in God doesn't help you any.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dmitri Martila]

It is not

Don't visit stupid people or spend a lot of time talking with them. Avoid them; then they can't contaminate you, and you can live in peace without being troubled or worn down by their foolishness. Such people are a heavier burden to bear than lead; and the only word that fits them is fools. It is easier to carry a load of sand, salt, and iron than to put up with a stupid person. (Sirach 22 Good News Translation (GNT)).

 

[bhsmte]

Don't visit stupid people or spend a lot of time talking with them. Avoid them; then they can't contaminate you, and you can live in peace without being troubled or worn down by their foolishness. Such people are a heavier burden to bear than lead; and the only word that fits them is fools. It is easier to carry a load of sand, salt, and iron than to put up with a stupid person. (Sirach 22 Good News Translation (GNT)).

Any examples of these "stupid people", like on this thread for example?

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

One of the main arguments of Pascals Wager from atheists is "it would fake belief" or something to that effect. Common sense tells us being exposed to something, especially over time can change people's opinions and belief. Someone could start to go to church and follow God's teachings while at first do it out of fear and not true belief but over time change to true belief and develop a real relationship with God etc.

bmp

 

[Freodin]

One of the main arguments of Pascals Wager from atheists is "it would fake belief" or something to that effect. Common sense tells us being exposed to something, especially over time can change people's opinions and belief. Someone could start to go to church and follow God's teachings while at first do it out of fear and not true belief but over time change to true belief and develop a real relationship with God etc.

So... if you were going to mosque, and followed Muhammed's teachings... you would over time become a true Muslim and develop a real relationship with Allah? (Insert any religion you like.)

I might agree that you could fall into a kind of habit, and perhaps even dull your doubts / disbelief... but "true belief"? And how would you form a "real relationship" with a deity that doesn't exist?

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

So... if you were going to mosque, and followed Muhammed's teachings... you would over time become a true Muslim and develop a real relationship with Allah? (Insert any religion you like.)

I might agree that you could fall into a kind of habit, and perhaps even dull your doubts / disbelief... but "true belief"? And how would you form a "real relationship" with a deity that doesn't exist?

Sure, it is possible. Common sense and past events tells us that.

Would I personally become x over time? I do not know. Ive never went to anything beside Christianity.

Been plenty of people to truly change their beliefs in not only religion but many facets of life.

 

[Freodin]

Sure, it is possible. Common sense and past events tells us that.

Would I personally become x over time? I do not know. Ive never went to anything beside Christianity.

Been plenty of people to truly change their beliefs in not only religion but many facets of life.

Really?

I don't doubt that people did change their beliefs, in religion as well as in other regards. But how many did change their beliefs because they had to submit to a surrounding that they did not believe in?

And the question you seemed to have missed: how do you form a "real relationship" with a deity that does not exist?

 

[Dmitri Martila]

Any examples of these "stupid people", like on this thread for example?

The atheism can not be proven. If the theism can not be proven too, then there is no knowledge in this world. The knowledge is, thus, there is All-knowing God. I am not enemy of S.Hawking's "bio-robots", here is the nice present to them:

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

Really?

I don't doubt that people did change their beliefs, in religion as well as in other regards. But how many did change their beliefs because they had to submit to a surrounding that they did not believe in?

And the question you seemed to have missed: how do you form a "real relationship" with a deity that does not exist?

The how many is simply posturing and irrelevant. We have no way of knowing such. All we know is it is possible.

You have found proof God does not exist? This should be on the front page news, amazed I haven't heard of it yet.

The fact of the matter is that is your opinion. Regardless, you are sorely overestimating what the mind is capable of. The mind is capable of making someone believe almost anything given the right triggers and conditions. There are people out there worshiping and truly believing in all sorts of wild and outlandish things.

 

[Freodin]

The how many is simply posturing and irrelevant. We have no way of knowing such. All we know is it is possible.

If you don't know "how many" (perhaps all?) are "simply posturing"... and admit that there is no way of knowing... then how would you know that it is possible?

You have found proof God does not exist? This should be on the front page news, amazed I haven't heard of it yet.

I really don't know where the source of this misunderstanding is. Are you perhaps one of those who believe that all deities exist or are different aspectsof "the divine"? From your "non-denominational" label, I would have considered you a Christian... and most of those do not believe that Zeus, Osiris, Ganesh or Allah are really existing deities.

If you differ here, just explain your position: my objection to your position would only change slighty, and I would rephrase my question accordingly.

But until then, I am going to assume that you adhere to the standard Christian position: that there is only one God, the triune one, the Father/Son/Holy Spirit one.
And under that position, I would ask again: how is someone who visits the mosque, the temple and engaged in the rituals of its religions ever going to have a "real relationship" with the respective deity... which, according to Christian doctrine, does not exist?

The fact of the matter is that is your opinion. Regardless, you are sorely overestimating what the mind is capable of. The mind is capable of making someone believe almost anything given the right triggers and conditions. There are people out there worshiping and truly believing in all sorts of wild and outlandish things.

You mean, I am underestimating the mind?
Well, no, I don't think I am. I agree with you that the people can believe all kinds of stuff... given the right triggers and conditions. And they can worship and truly believe in all sorts of wild and outlandish things. (I would count Christianity amongst this. )

But I do not believe that "faking a belief" is one of these "right triggers and conditions". At least not for the majority of normal people.

 

[bhsmte]

The atheism can not be proven. If the theism can not be proven too, then there is no knowledge in this world. The knowledge is, thus, there is All-knowing God. I am not enemy of S.Hawking's "bio-robots", here is the nice present to them:

Can you support this claim, with evidence?

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

If you don't know "how many" (perhaps all?) are "simply posturing"... and admit that there is no way of knowing... then how would you know that it is possible?

You asked me how many. I have no way of knowing an exact number. I have however seen and heard of people changing their belief in all aspects of life. Hence it's possibility.

I really don't know where the source of this misunderstanding is. Are you perhaps one of those who believe that all deities exist or are different aspectsof "the divine"? From your "non-denominational" label, I would have considered you a Christian... and most of those do not believe that Zeus, Osiris, Ganesh or Allah are really existing deities.

The disagreement is simply you are doubting people can change their belief (true belief). As that was the basis for my counter to the people countering pascal's wager. As for me, I only believe in the Christian God obviously.

If you differ here, just explain your position: my objection to your position would only change slighty, and I would rephrase my question accordingly.

But until then, I am going to assume that you adhere to the standard Christian position: that there is only one God, the triune one, the Father/Son/Holy Spirit one.
And under that position, I would ask again: how is someone who visits the mosque, the temple and engaged in the rituals of its religions ever going to have a "real relationship" with the respective deity... which, according to Christian doctrine, does not exist?

You are assuming something needs to be real to have a relationship. People everyday have imaginary relationships and truly believe in those imaginary relationships. The mind is a powerful thing. Capable of making things that seem crazy to the majority perfectly normal to a select few.

You mean, I am underestimating the mind?
Well, no, I don't think I am. I agree with you that the people can believe all kinds of stuff... given the right triggers and conditions. And they can worship and truly believe in all sorts of wild and outlandish things. (I would count Christianity amongst this. )

But I do not believe that "faking a belief" is one of these "right triggers and conditions". At least not for the majority of normal people.

You lost me here. I never claimed faking a belief is a trigger/condition. In my mind there needs to be more than that. i.e. You probably won't change your mind pretending to be a Islam person if you never study the Quran, pray to their God, fellowship with other Islamists, etc etc. Basically if you don't change your lifestyle and simply the only difference is you claim to be x to people or believe something you probably won't truly change your beliefs.

Although I am not gonna entirely rule that out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Freodin]

You asked me how many. I have no way of knowing an exact number. I have however seen and heard of people changing their belief in all aspects of life. Hence it's possibility.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your statement about the "how many". I didn't notice that you were referring to my question... perhaps you should have used quotation marks to make that clear.

But ok. You keep repeating that you have "seen and heard of people changing their belief in all aspects of life". I don't deny that, and I never did.

I just doubt that this would happen due to "Someone [starting] to go to church and follow God's teachings while at first do it out of fear and not true belief but over time change to true belief and develop a real relationship with God etc." as you said in your first post.

I might as well claim that "people change their beliefs via being hit on the head hard repeatedly."... and back that up with "I have seen people change their beliefs".

The disagreement is simply you are doubting people can change their belief (true belief). As that was the basis for my counter to the people countering pascal's wager. As for me, I only believe in the Christian God obviously.

No, you still misunderstand. I do not doubt that people can change their belief, their true belief. I, too, have seen this happen. But as I see it, it happens because people got confronted with information that compelled them to change their beliefs. They didn't do it because they engaged in something they didn't believe in "out of fear". I have met people like this also... and they always faked it, "out of fear".

You are assuming something needs to be real to have a relationship. People everyday have imaginary relationships and truly believe in those imaginary relationships. The mind is a powerful thing. Capable of making things that seem crazy to the majority perfectly normal to a select few.

Perhaps I am interpreting to much into your initial statement, but it was you who said that these people could develop a "real relationship" with God.
If you know want to say that "imaginary relationships" and "real relationships" are one and the same, and it doesn't matter if the object of your "relationship" is real or imagined... well, I would disagree, but whatever suits your fancy.

I just wondered: many Christians like to claim that the outstanding feature of their faith is "having a relationship with Jesus". If there is no difference between this relationship with Jesus and a relationship with Thor... if both objects of relationship could be "imaginary"... then what is the point?

You lost me here. I never claimed faking a belief is a trigger/condition. In my mind there needs to be more than that. i.e. You probably won't change your mind pretending to be a Islam person if you never study the Quran, pray to their God, fellowship with other Islamists, etc etc. Basically if you don't change your lifestyle and simply the only difference is you claim to be x to people or believe something you probably won't truly change your beliefs.

"Pretending to be a Islam person" would mean studying the Qu'ran, praying to Allah, having fellowship with other Muslim... out of fear that you unbelief would be discovered and you would be punished. How is that going to induce "true belief"?

And how would that relate to Pascal's wager? You would still have a myriad of different (and mostly or in totality false) faiths to "change your lifestyle" into.

Although I am not gonna entirely rule that out of the realm of possibility.

I would never rule out any possibility... but I do have to wonder: why would anyone want to do that?

 

[bhsmte]

You asked me how many. I have no way of knowing an exact number. I have however seen and heard of people changing their belief in all aspects of life. Hence it's possibility.



The disagreement is simply you are doubting people can change their belief (true belief). As that was the basis for my counter to the people countering pascal's wager. As for me, I only believe in the Christian God obviously.



You are assuming something needs to be real to have a relationship. People everyday have imaginary relationships and truly believe in those imaginary relationships. The mind is a powerful thing. Capable of making things that seem crazy to the majority perfectly normal to a select few.




You lost me here. I never claimed faking a belief is a trigger/condition. In my mind there needs to be more than that. i.e. You probably won't change your mind pretending to be a Islam person if you never study the Quran, pray to their God, fellowship with other Islamists, etc etc. Basically if you don't change your lifestyle and simply the only difference is you claim to be x to people or believe something you probably won't truly change your beliefs.

Although I am not gonna entirely rule that out of the realm of possibility.

People do change their beliefs and I am evidence of that after being a Christian for most of my life. People change religions as well and to religions that may have significantly different beliefs. People go from being a believer to non believer and from a non believer to a believer.

IMO, this change is typically a slow process, that is working it's way through each person's psyche, until it reaches the breaking point. As a general rule, people will change beliefs, when it becomes to uncomfortable, to hang onto their former belief, when there is another alternative available, their personal psyche can reconcile as valid.

 

[SinaloaPaisa]

Sorry, I misinterpreted your statement about the "how many". I didn't notice that you were referring to my question... perhaps you should have used quotation marks to make that clear.

But ok. You keep repeating that you have "seen and heard of people changing their belief in all aspects of life". I don't deny that, and I never did.

I just doubt that this would happen due to "Someone [starting] to go to church and follow God's teachings while at first do it out of fear and not true belief but over time change to true belief and develop a real relationship with God etc." as you said in your first post.

I might as well claim that "people change their beliefs via being hit on the head hard repeatedly."... and back that up with "I have seen people change their beliefs".

Why are you doubting something which can theoretically happen and we can probably assure ourselves it has happened in the past and will likely happen in the future. No one is claiming this is common or a likely outcome. We are just saying it CAN happen.

No, you still misunderstand. I do not doubt that people can change their belief, their true belief. I, too, have seen this happen. But as I see it, it happens because people got confronted with information that compelled them to change their beliefs. They didn't do it because they engaged in something they didn't believe in "out of fear". I have met people like this also... and they always faked it, "out of fear".

You are trying to label this thing as they do x because of y. Life doesn't work that way. Atleast not in a absolute broad stroking sense. Everyones situation can be different. Just because it doesn't make sense or seem likely doesn't mean it aint possible.

Perhaps I am interpreting to much into your initial statement, but it was you who said that these people could develop a "real relationship" with God.
If you know want to say that "imaginary relationships" and "real relationships" are one and the same, and it doesn't matter if the object of your "relationship" is real or imagined... well, I would disagree, but whatever suits your fancy.

Why would you disagree?

The only thing that matters is the person's belief. No matter how crazy or unusual as it may seem.

I just wondered: many Christians like to claim that the outstanding feature of their faith is "having a relationship with Jesus". If there is no difference between this relationship with Jesus and a relationship with Thor... if both objects of relationship could be "imaginary"... then what is the point?

We do not know what is happening in their mind in regards to said relationship. Might not be any difference.

Nonetheless it is irrelevant.

"Pretending to be a Islam person" would mean studying the Qu'ran, praying to Allah, having fellowship with other Muslim... out of fear that you unbelief would be discovered and you would be punished. How is that going to induce "true belief"?

How, the same way atheists become Christian. Something resonates in them causing them to change their belief. For example if I read something in the Quran and it just sparks something inside me I could theoretically trigger my initial beliefs changing.

And how would that relate to Pascal's wager? You would still have a myriad of different (and mostly or in totality false) faiths to "change your lifestyle" into.


I would never rule out any possibility... but I do have to wonder: why would anyone want to do that?

You just summed up my whole point. i.e. its POSSIBLE.

The whys and hows are irrelevant.

 

[Freodin]

Why are you doubting something which can theoretically happen and we can probably assure ourselves it has happened in the past and will likely happen in the future. No one is claiming this is common or a likely outcome. We are just saying it CAN happen.

If you say so. Perhaps I misunderstood the point you wanted to make.

You did want to make a point, didn't you?

You are trying to label this thing as they do x because of y. Life doesn't work that way. Atleast not in a absolute broad stroking sense. Everyones situation can be different. Just because it doesn't make sense or seem likely doesn't mean it aint possible.

I just responded to the post you made... which was anything but "absolute broad stroking".

But, ok. It could happen. I still think it would be highly unlikely that someone could change their "true belief" based on pure participation in something that you do not have a "true belief" in to start with... but again: if you say so.

So what? The same would be true for a "true unbelief" then. If someone - for whatever broad reasons - had to live their life as an atheist, perhaps, in some situations, it would be possible that he became a "true atheist".

What would that have to do with Pascal's wager?

Why would you disagree?

The only thing that matters is the person's belief. No matter how crazy or unusual as it may seem.

Weeeeellll.... there are some people - a few perhaps, very few - who think that what is true does matter, at least a little.

But I wouldn't want to discourage you from believing otherwise... no matter how crazy or unusual that may seem.

We do not know what is happening in their mind in regards to said relationship. Might not be any difference.

Nonetheless it is irrelevant.

I don't think that is a very good way to live your life in a society filled with other human beings... well, expect if you happen to live in a surrounding where human interactions are irrelevant and your needs are taken care of by well-meaning people who make sure you take your medicin regularly.

How, the same way atheists become Christian. Something resonates in them causing them to change their belief. For example if I read something in the Quran and it just sparks something inside me I could theoretically trigger my initial beliefs changing.

Yes, again I agree. This is how a change of beliefs usually happens.

But as I tried to explain: this is true for every kind of belief.

And that would mean that it leaves us in exactly the same position as before in regard to Pascal's wager: it doesn't tell you what is true.

You just summed up my whole point. i.e. its POSSIBLE.

The whys and hows are irrelevant.

So your whole point was to make the observation that people can change their beliefs?`