New Statement of Purpose

[Metal Minister]

there is no open discussion forum for such issues in member services either...

No, you need to go to MSC, and start a thread, and the Admins and such will talk with you there directly.

 

[Raimi Stranger]

again there is no open discussion of this issue on this site because the minds of the owners are closed hard shut, who bought this site to control it, from the more open-minded soul that created it... disaster for the Truth of God here as the saints of God are classified as 'unorthodox theology' by the restructuring of the site ... the Truth is indeed rare on this earth, but not found by theology... but as Jesus died to bring mankind's few who Love, not sin any more, the Truth is from God directly by spirit, not in words :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

this world and its religion belong to Satan, not Christ, through the sin of almost all men, even lying to ourselves about our own spirit of Love... and indeed about God and Christ in orthodox religion of sinners...
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

the stories of mass religion perpetuate sin for life as Satan requires to stay lord of men, Jesus came not to ebnd that but to begin the ending of it by taking the few who Love now to create the kingdom come in the new earth where God si with men and sin is simply not allowed , all sinners there die a swift second death at God's own hand... to free them yet again, the last time, from sin -Romans 6:7 ... so salvation is actually prgressive in stages, first jesus then the few saints at his return, then the countless billions at judgement day saved by works of love in the kingdom come, them the stragglers and Satan whose turning to Love and trial of their Love in the lake of fire is the fibnal pleasure of God as He has said , none can prevent Him... and as Jesus has said, all will accept him as king in his kingdom ruled by Love ...no exceptions...

so God wins all hearts back in the end, but we all always knew Love is right, sin is wrong, we just lied to ourselves a while ... Love alone can and will make all happy in Jesus' kingdom come, but not in this earth...

 

[americanvet]

I will make your suggestion to the other administrators.

Freemasonry was confined here a few years back because people were debating it in the General Theology forum. Since it is not a General Theology topic, it was confined here. I do not see a problem moving it to the Philosophy forum.

Thank you.

 

[drstevej]

again there is no open discussion of this issue on this site because the minds of the owners are closed hard shut, who bought this site to control it, from the more open-minded soul that created it...

The operative word is "owner." I have respect for both owners you mention.

CF at present is very similar to the CF of ten years ago. The experiments of 2007 and following where a "wiki" approach to moderation and site rules that may sound good in theory, but having been through that era, was highly contentious and quite brutal. I was the one who suggested to Erwin that he drop the term "Christian" from the site name because of it's drift from it's moorings. After a vote, Erwin renamed it. Soon after he sold it and tried again at another site. When the present owner bought it his decision was to return the "Christian Forums" name and a structure similar to the early CF (minus many of the graphical special features that Erwin coded).

CF, in my opinion, can not be all things to all people without becoming a food fight. The owner has the right and is wise to set the policy and parameters that he wishes.

 

[Lovely Jar]

Admin Hat

We are not here to discuss the origin of the Nicean Creed. If you have an issue with the Nicean Creed, you are free to go to the Member Services Center and discuss it with the Advisors and Administrators there. The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Statement of Purpose for this forum.

This forum is to discuss how wrong unorthodox theology is and condemn it for that error.

While 'promotion' would be choosing not to condemn unorthodox theists and instead engage in learning together about something that is different than what may be our own belief system.

Asked just so I'm clear.

 

[A New Dawn]

There is a thread active now that asks "Should non Trinitarians be considered as Christians". If someone merely posts "NO", isn't that the same thing as saying "Non Trinitarians are not Christains" in a post? This thread could have Mormon, JW or Gnostic, etc. instead of Trinitarians.

Is that against the SoF?

You are correct. Answering "No" to that question would be a violation of the rules.

Has CF ever considered baby forums under UT that has the majority UT beliefs categorized for easier posting abilities for all involved? Right now it's just a hamburger forum. If someone asks "I want to learn about LDS or JW", it is filled with Orthodox headhunters combing anything non Orthodox to attempt to change their minds. This must look bad to the one who posts the question.

CF did have separate subforums in UTD for LDS, JW and Non-Trinitarian Messianics for a short while. Those were closed and UTD was reunited all in one forum a few years back. It was felt by the advisors that the presence of subforums dedicated to the individual groups here came to be looked at as safe-havens rather than debate subforums by some and a place to go to hammer on a specific unorthodox group by others. The way UTD is now is the way it was, originally.

The first word in CF is Christian. I appreciate their openness to extend that definition to what is in the heart, not just the mind. The Nicene Creed is not used to define a Christian but a Christian belief. Most UTs are just a different Christian belief, so CF is holding true to it's name.

I don't subscribe to one Christian telling another Christian that they are in "error". I maintain that I just don't understand or see things the same way. I pray, and I seriously pray, that every time I enter this forum, that I will find the benefits of truth from God and if I post, I am posting something that promotes his truth.

Christ gave the great commission to bring souls to Christ and instructed us to be on the watch for wolves who might enter the flock to scatter it. Because salvation is predicated on one being able to hear the truth, it is necessary for the truth to be taught. CF believes that the truth is best captured in the Nicene Creed.

 

[A New Dawn]

there is no open discussion forum for such issues in member services either...

The MSC is a forum where you can bring any concern to the administrators and advisors attention. It looks empty because the threads are all private between the person who starts the thread and the administrators and advisors. You may start a thread in there about this topic.

 

[A New Dawn]

Thanks for the response, but my question was not about labeling others as non-Christians.

I will attempt to explain. Tishra1 wrote:

The UT sub-forums were inaccurately being seen as... a place to focus on said groups and address them at point blank range (also not something we envision here for CF.)​

Is focusing on and addressing these groups at point blank range still something that is not envisioned at CF?

The term point-blank range is of French origin. The center of a target was once a small white spot and the French for white is blanc. The term therefore means "aim at the white point in the center of the target". Point-blank range is the distance a marksman can reasonably expect to fire a specific weapon hitting a specific target without further adjustment of the fixed sights. A marksman should be able to hit the target every time at point-blank range, providing there are no deficiencies in the weapon, ammunition or marksman.

Point-blank range - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

Skylark, I am not sure what discussion at "point blank range" means except for those who come in to hammer at the unorthodox at every opportunity (kind of like one of our friends from the old days). I think the statements in the SoP go a good distance to speak against that type of discussion.

 

[A New Dawn]

again there is no open discussion of this issue on this site because the minds of the owners are closed hard shut, who bought this site to control it, from the more open-minded soul that created it... disaster for the Truth of God here as the saints of God are classified as 'unorthodox theology' by the restructuring of the site ... the Truth is indeed rare on this earth, but not found by theology... but as Jesus died to bring mankind's few who Love, not sin any more, the Truth is from God directly by spirit, not in words :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

this world and its religion belong to Satan, not Christ, through the sin of almost all men, even lying to ourselves about our own spirit of Love... and indeed about God and Christ in orthodox religion of sinners...
1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him...
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

the stories of mass religion perpetuate sin for life as Satan requires to stay lord of men, Jesus came not to ebnd that but to begin the ending of it by taking the few who Love now to create the kingdom come in the new earth where God si with men and sin is simply not allowed , all sinners there die a swift second death at God's own hand... to free them yet again, the last time, from sin -Romans 6:7 ... so salvation is actually prgressive in stages, first jesus then the few saints at his return, then the countless billions at judgement day saved by works of love in the kingdom come, them the stragglers and Satan whose turning to Love and trial of their Love in the lake of fire is the fibnal pleasure of God as He has said , none can prevent Him... and as Jesus has said, all will accept him as king in his kingdom ruled by Love ...no exceptions...

so God wins all hearts back in the end, but we all always knew Love is right, sin is wrong, we just lied to ourselves a while ... Love alone can and will make all happy in Jesus' kingdom come, but not in this earth...

Raimi Stranger, even if UTD was the proper place to discuss these things, this thread is not the proper place. Please let's stick to the topic.

 

[A New Dawn]

This forum is to discuss how wrong unorthodox theology is and condemn it for that error.

While 'promotion' would be choosing not to condemn unorthodox theists and instead engage in learning together about something that is different than what may be our own belief system.

Asked just so I'm clear.

That would be an incorrect definition of terms. Condemnation is exactly what is spoken against in the new SoP. Teaching would be a better word. Yes, there might be some debate regarding theological beliefs, but you are just as free to come in and start a discussion about something you wish to learn about.

Promotion, as I mentioned earlier, is where you believe that something you believe is required for salvation and instruct others that they need to believe it, also. You are free to ask questions of the LDS or JW, or the non-Trinitarians, or anyone else you wish to learn something from. But, it is a discussion and debate forum, so others are free to respond, also.

 

[skylark1]

In the past, promotion was at CF defined as this:

Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.​

Has the definition of promotion now changed from that to saying that something is necessary for salvation?

If so, how can a theology be discussed in which a major part of their belief is that something specific is required for salvation?

 

[A New Dawn]

In the past, promotion was at CF defined as this:

Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.​

Has the definition of promotion now changed from that to saying that something is necessary for salvation?

If so, how can a theology be discussed in which a major part of their belief is that something specific is required for salvation?

Promotion of a theological belief and promotion of an action (for example: illegal activity, same sex marriage) are two separate concepts. We could apply those parameters to a theological belief, I guess, but then we'd probably have to shut down UTD since there are people who come here to learn about unorthodox beliefs for the purpose of converting, and that would be against the statement of purpose. So that definition wouldn't fit. Or we could use that definition and just disallow certain discussions.

 

[skylark1]

Promotion of a theological belief and promotion of an action (for example: illegal activity, same sex marriage) are two separate concepts. We could apply those parameters to a theological belief, I guess, but then we'd probably have to shut down UTD since there are people who come here to learn about unorthodox beliefs for the purpose of converting, and that would be against the statement of purpose. So that definition wouldn't fit. Or we could use that definition and just disallow certain discussions.

The definition that I quoted from some old rules here at CF was under a heading of "Rule No. 5 - No Promotion of Other Religions." It was not about illegal activity, or same sex marriage.

Promotion has been defined in dictionaries as:

1. The act of promoting or the fact of being promoted; advancement.
2. Encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something; furtherance. (American Heritage Dictionary)

The act of furthering the growth or development of something (Merriam Webster)

Furtherance or encouragement. (dictionary.com)

1. to further or encourage the progress or existence of
4. to urge the adoption of; work for: to promote reform
(World English Dictionary)​

I would have assumed (and I think that others would also have assumed) that promotion meant encouragement to accept a belief or religion. I would not have guessed that it meant saying that something is necessary for salvation. So, thank you for clarifying CF's unique definition of promotion.

 

[A New Dawn]

The definition that I quoted from some old rules here at CF was under a heading of "Rule No. 5 - No Promotion of Other Religions." It was not about illegal activity, or same sex marriage.

Promotion has been defined in dictionaries as:

1. The act of promoting or the fact of being promoted; advancement.
2. Encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something; furtherance. (American Heritage Dictionary)

The act of furthering the growth or development of something (Merriam Webster)

Furtherance or encouragement. (dictionary.com)

1. to further or encourage the progress or existence of
4. to urge the adoption of; work for: to promote reform
(World English Dictionary)​

I would have assumed (and I think that others would also have assumed) that promotion meant encouragement to accept a belief or religion. I would not have guessed that it meant saying that something is necessary for salvation. So, thank you for clarifying CF's unique definition of promotion.

I can check back, I only remember that definition from the discussions about promoting illegal activity and other things that CF considers against the rules. I wasn't aware that this same definition was given to promoting other religions. Are you talking about the rules from years ago?

I will talk with the other admins about it, if we are going with the same definition then we will have to limit the types of discussions we have here.

 

[skylark1]

I can check back, I only remember that definition from the discussions about promoting illegal activity and other things that CF considers against the rules. I wasn't aware that this same definition was given to promoting other religions. Are you talking about the rules from years ago?

I will talk with the other admins about it, if we are going with the same definition then we will have to limit the types of discussions we have here.

I am not trying to limit types of discussions. I had just never heard of promotion being defined as saying that something is necessary for salvation. I wanted to clarify what was intended by the no promotion rule.

Here is an example to further clarify. Since so many of the discussions here are about Mormonism, I will use a teaching of theirs as an example. They teach that one must be baptized by one with (LDS) authority in order to be saved in the presence of God the Father. Would merely stating their belief be a violation of the rule? What about if they were responding to a question?

 

[Phantasman]

A New Dawn says:
CF did have separate subforums in UTD for LDS, JW and Non-Trinitarian Messianics for a short while. Those were closed and UTD was reunited all in one forum a few years back. It was felt by the advisors that the presence of subforums dedicated to the individual groups here came to be looked at as safe-havens rather than debate subforums by some and a place to go to hammer on a specific unorthodox group by others. The way UTD is now is the way it was, originally.

Seems the "others" find them and hammer them anyways. Maybe the problem is the "others" that need moderating.





Christ gave the great commission to bring souls to Christ and instructed us to be on the watch for wolves who might enter the flock to scatter it. Because salvation is predicated on one being able to hear the truth, it is necessary for the truth to be taught. CF believes that the truth is best captured in the Nicene Creed.

I understand. But the only "wolves" I have experienced are the ones that shred apart the Mormons, JWs and Gnostics. If one chooses to be Unorthodox, to me it merely doesn't agree with the catholic idea, not that it isn't Christian oriented.

Since both sides have a convincing argument, by researching the past in the abilities we have today, the argument can be won on one side by merely eliminating the other. Just because one side wins doesn't make it truth. Just that it had control and strength to be able to eliminate the other.

It would appear that the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[A New Dawn]

I am not trying to limit types of discussions. I had just never heard of promotion being defined as saying that something is necessary for salvation. I wanted to clarify what was intended by the no promotion rule.

Here is an example to further clarify. Since so many of the discussions here are about Mormonism, I will use a teaching of theirs as an example. They teach that one must be baptized by one with (LDS) authority in order to be saved in the presence of God the Father. Would merely stating their belief be a violation of the rule? What about if they were responding to a question?

I think, as with discussions in GT that involve negative aspects of other religions, that as long as it was clarified by scripture it is OK. That is where the XYZ forumla comes in handy. For example, instead of them saying "We don't believe you are saved because you haven't been baptized by an LDS priesthood member", they could say "According to our scripture (list scripture), we believe that one must be baptized by one having authority".

Does that help?

 

[A New Dawn]

I am not trying to limit types of discussions. I had just never heard of promotion being defined as saying that something is necessary for salvation. I wanted to clarify what was intended by the no promotion rule.

Here is an example to further clarify. Since so many of the discussions here are about Mormonism, I will use a teaching of theirs as an example. They teach that one must be baptized by one with (LDS) authority in order to be saved in the presence of God the Father. Would merely stating their belief be a violation of the rule? What about if they were responding to a question?

Theologically, why would someone promote their religion? The only reason I can think of is because they believe they have the truth, and what you need in order to be saved. I know the LDS believe that. I have seen a lot of non-Trinitarians allude to it. So, short of that, I can't think of a reason why someone would promote or encourage their own religion.

 

[skylark1]

Skylark, I am not sure what discussion at "point blank range" means except for those who come in to hammer at the unorthodox at every opportunity (kind of like one of our friends from the old days). I think the statements in the SoP go a good distance to speak against that type of discussion.

Point blank
(idiomatic) Directly; bluntly; without pretense or caution.

I asked him point blank whether he was cheating on his wife.

point blank - Wiktionary


point-blank {adv.}
Straightforwardly; bluntly; directly.

point-blank : P : American Idioms @ English Slang​

I would guess that it means to attack their theology bluntly and directly.

"a place to focus on said groups and address them at point blank range (also not something we envision here for CF.)"​

Perhaps the the thought was that by combining the sub-forums into one forum that there would be a less focused attack on the theology of certain groups. Perhaps the thought was that is would be less of a draw or invitation to come and gang up and hammer away at certain theologies. That may have worked for some of the previous sub-forum theologies, but is has not worked for Mormon theology. There are those who post here who still hammer away at certain unorthodox beliefs as every opportunity. Perhaps with this new statement of purpose that is considered to be perfectly fine, however, it did not seem to be considered desirable behavior according to the statement that mentioned firing at point blank range.

 

[skylark1]

Theologically, why would someone promote their religion? The only reason I can think of is because they believe they have the truth, and what you need in order to be saved. I know the LDS believe that. I have seen a lot of non-Trinitarians allude to it. So, short of that, I can't think of a reason why someone would promote or encourage their own religion.

I really was not asking why anyone would want to promote their religion. I think that should be obvious to anyone. (Edit: I had missed your other post responding to this question when I wrote this.)

I was trying to clarify the rules and how they would be applied.

Here is an old announcement thread discussing how promotion was to be defined at Cf, and what would and would not be allowed; what promotion is and isn't. I thought that it might help.

http://www.christianforums.com/t6856148/