New Jerusalem vs Babylon the Great

[Douggg]

Also please comment on this:

Explain why the the tribulation of those days used in verse 29 does not contain the word "great", while the great tribulation in verse 21 does.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

 

[Zao is life]

The Holy of Holies room was separated by a large heavy curtain, that the could only be entered by the high priest, and only once a year.

and though the temple stood for another 40 years before being destroyed by the Romans, the very last time the New Testament referred to that holy court and holy of holies using the word naos, was when the above curtain was torn in two when Jesus died on the cross. From then on, the New Testament only uses the word naos in reference to the body of Christ, the church.

But you don't think there's any significance in that fact because you will not allow the outer courts of Revelation 11:1-2's temple to be symbolically referring to the nations who will trample the holy city (which Revelation three times calls New Jerusalem, i.e the church), neither will you understand that from 40 years before the temple at Jerusalem was destroyed, it was already not regarded as a temple of anything except unbelieving Jews making sacrifices which showed that they rejected the blood of Christ.

You neither believe Jesus:

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem.
22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
24 God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things.
26 Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you.

Nor do you believe His apostles:

Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of Heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with (human) hands.

Your 'Christianity' = non-Christianity. If you don't believe now, I pray God that you will before it's too late for you.

The man of sin will seat himself up in the naos (the church). It will be an idol placed in the Tabernacle of God, and as a result of this abomination, the harlot is going to be given over to desolation.

Please see this:

 

[Zao is life]

Explain why the the tribulation of those days used in verse 29 does not contain the word "great", while the great tribulation in verse 21 does.

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

You're willfully blind so I'm done with any further discussions with you about this.

 

[Zao is life]

Hosea 1
10 Yet the number of the Israelites will be like the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or counted. And it will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’

Rev 13

1Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. There were ten royal crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.​

Hosea 1
11Then the people of Judah and of Israel will be gathered together, and they will appoint for themselves one leader, and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel.

Rev 13

11Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. This beast had two horns like a lamb, but spoke like a dragon. 12 And this beast exercised all the authority of the first beast and caused the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose mortal wound had been healed. 13And the second beast performed great signs to cause even fire from heaven to come down to earth in the presence of the people.​

I found this very interesting, thank you. I never "got it" (I never got what you were saying) at first, but I get it now. @tranquil I edited here: However, this part of the sentence in Hosea 1:11 is merely a repeat of what was said before regarding the exile of the house of Israel, i.e "a Markan Sandwhich":

.. "and will go up out of the land. For great will be the day of Jezreel."

So I don't know if the above became a biblical type of what you say below (Hosea 1 was only speaking to the house of Israel, not the house of Judah):

Hosea 1
2When the LORD first spoke through Hosea, He told him, “Go, take a prostitute as your wife and have children of adultery, because this land is flagrantly prostituting itself by departing from the LORD.”

Hosea 1
4Then the LORD said to Hosea, “Name him Jezreel, for soon I will bring the bloodshed of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and I will put an end to the kingdom of Israel. 5And on that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel.”

Matt 24
16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [Jezreel means 'God scatters'

Even so, the bodies of the two witnesses will lie in the street of Jerusalem and it's talking about Jerusalem on earth (spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt").

.. but this is why I don't try to work out specifics of how events are going to unfold.

@tranquil Added: I also have difficulty believing that the "head" whom the house of Israel and the house of Judah appoint when they are joined together is anyone other than Christ. Maybe the man of sin will come along, seat himself up in the body of Christ, and then both the beast from the earth and the beast from the sea will appoint him as their head, but it seems to me more like just as Joseph exercised all Pharaoh's authority, but Pharaoh's throne was excluded, so it will be with the beast from the earth and the beast from the sea. I don't see the two appointing themselves another head in Revelation 13.

Yet your observations are interesting.

 

[Douggg]

and though the temple stood for another 40 years before being destroyed by the Romans, the very last time the New Testament referred to that holy court and holy of holies using the word naos,

The temple, naos, strong's numbers G3485 does not include the court, neither the inner nor out court. It refers to the sanctuary building, only.

the temple, strong's numbers G2411, is the entire temple complex, with both inner and outer courts.

 

[Zao is life]

The temple, naos, strong's numbers G3485 does not include the court, neither the inner nor out court. It refers to the sanctuary building, only.

the temple, strong's numbers G2411, is the entire temple complex, with both inner and outer courts.

View attachment 310322

Nonsense. G2411 is the outer court and the rest of the temple precincts, excluding the holy court and the sanctuary in the center.

Believe what you will to believe. Everyone with an honest approach to scripture has already seen your willful twisting of the scriptures to hold onto your physical temple belief system.

I'm done reading your rubbish every time you re-interpret even what two different dictionaries explain about the word naos.

@Douggg Every time you read about Jesus entering the temple in the gospels, the word hieron is used, because Jesus was not a priest and was not allowed into the naos - He was not allowed into either the holy place or the inner sanctuary, the most holy place. But when He referred to His own body as the temple, the Greek uses the word naos.

But you have already willed to believe your own gospel. So I'm done reading your rubbish.

 

[grafted branch]

Christ is our temple. Christ is in you. You are in the world. We are seated with Christ in heavenly places. Ever since Christ was on the earth (and He was the temple of God on earth), part of New Jerusalem is already on earth, and always has been (because we are now the temple of God on earth).

There's really no difference between measuring (or counting) the population of the temple of God on earth and counting the population of those who have died and are in heaven with Christ, and measuring the population of the total in New Jerusalem.

The holy city and the Temple of God are populated by those who are in Christ.

Well, I think I agree with most of what you said here.

I think it was @TribulationSigns who linked the measuring reed used to measure the temple in Revelation 11:1-2 with the measuring reed used to measure New Jerusalem in Revelation 21.

I don’t want to speak for TS but I think he sees 3 groups of people; true believers in the church, unbelievers in the church, and unbelievers outside the church. I think his position is that when the temple is measured only true believers are revealed. The problem with this as I see it is naos would contain unbelievers. If this isn’t his position then maybe TS can post a comment on this.

If the saints on earth are being attacked by the beast, then the temple of God is being attacked. Nero did the same thing, and this is why Preterists will insist that because his name = 6 6 6 spelled in Hebrew, they therefore claim it was talking about him, and it's all past. There are huge problems with that theory which I won't go into in this thread.

I would like to discuss this (no debate) a little further and compare notes. I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on when the beast of Revelation 13 occurs, I think the saints in Revelation 13:7 is referring to national Israel (not gentiles) and I think you see the saints as the church.

So if the word “saints” in Revelation 13:7 is referring to true believers only then true believers will be overcome by the beast while at the same time true believers can overcome the beast by the blood of the Lamb. To me this can’t make sense because everyone is a winner in this situation.

If the word “saints” is referring to a group that contains both believers and unbelievers then things can make sense. I have found that people who believe salvation can be lost have no problems with the temple (naos) containing unbelievers. I don’t want to get sidetracked on soteriology but do you see naos containing unbelievers?

I’m not a proponent of placing Nero as the beast and I think 666 is referring to the fraction 2/3; 2 divided by 3 = .666 and 1 divide by 3 = .333. You quoted Zechariah 13 which shows the 2/3 and 1/3. As you said this is really a different topic so let’s just leave it alone.

 

[Zao is life]

Well, I think I agree with most of what you said here.

I don’t want to speak for TS but I think he sees 3 groups of people; true believers in the church, unbelievers in the church, and unbelievers outside the church. I think his position is that when the temple is measured only true believers are revealed. The problem with this as I see it is naos would contain unbelievers. If this isn’t his position then maybe TS can post a comment on this.

I would like to discuss this (no debate) a little further and compare notes. I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on when the beast of Revelation 13 occurs, I think the saints in Revelation 13:7 is referring to national Israel (not gentiles) and I think you see the saints as the church.

So if the word “saints” in Revelation 13:7 is referring to true believers only then true believers will be overcome by the beast while at the same time true believers can overcome the beast by the blood of the Lamb. To me this can’t make sense because everyone is a winner in this situation.

If the word “saints” is referring to a group that contains both believers and unbelievers then things can make sense. I have found that people who believe salvation can be lost have no problems with the temple (naos) containing unbelievers.

I’m not a proponent of placing Nero as the beast and I think 666 is referring to the fraction 2/3; 2 divided by 3 = .666 and 1 divide by 3 = .333. You quoted Zechariah 13 which shows the 2/3 and 1/3. As you said this is really a different topic so let’s just leave it alone.

I don't believe that unbelievers are in Christ. Therefore unbelievers IMO cannot be in the naos (which only refers to the holy place and holy of holies, i.e not a physical one anymore, but a spiritual one).

The outer court is where the Gentiles/unbelievers are.

I don’t think we are going to see eye to eye on when the beast of Revelation 13 occurs, I think the saints in Revelation 13:7 is referring to national Israel (not gentiles) and I think you see the saints as the church.

We won't see eye to eye on that. I don't believe in two Israel's at all. I only see one Israel, those who are in Christ, and I do not believe genetic ancestry matters at all, because God's promises to the house of Israel and the house of Judah were all (without exception) fulfilled by Christ when He shed His blood.

Christ is the fulfillment of every promise of God, and those who are not in Him are not Israel, not saints, not elect, not anything.

I believe God regards unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles alike as Gentiles, and Gentiles who are in Christ as elect Israelites because Christ represents all those who are in Him. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creature. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, and outside is the outer court of the Gentiles (unbelievers), which includes Jews who are unbelievers.

It's stands to reason from what I said above that I will only see Revelation 13:7 as an attack on the church, an attack regarding which Babyon, Antiochus Epihanes, Nero are all biblical types (of the final time).

So I believe that this attack will defeat the church and the power of Christians both in their ability to evangelize, and to worship freely, and the church can most certainly be overcome by the beast, especially if people are being forced to either worship the image of the beast or be killed, or are being led away captive (Revelation 13:9-10).

I have found that people who believe salvation can be lost have no problems with the temple (naos) containing unbelievers.

That's not true at all in my case, because I do not believe in OSAS, but I also know that God's elect has always consisted of the faithful mixed with those among God's elect who are easily led astray or turned aside. Some will play the harlot, spiritually speaking. It does not mean they have never been saved by grace through faith in Jesus. God accused the church at Thyatira of fornication. I do not believe that (if) this fornication was sexual/carnal/physical, it was merely carnal, it began with false doctrines and evil religious practices taking place in the church at Thyaira.

I believe that biblically speaking, spiritually speaking, a harlot in a spiritual sense is always referring to a part of God's elect, and God's elect has always consisted of a mixture of the faithful and the unfaithful, therefore I believe that if Jews who were part of the elect could have been broken off, then so can "Gentiles" who are in Christ (who are no longer "Gentiles" because in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, Romans 11:20-22; Revelation 3:5).

 

[grafted branch]

I don't believe that unbelievers are in Christ. Therefore unbelievers IMO cannot be in the naos (which only refers to the holy place and holy of holies, i.e not a physical one anymore, but a spiritual one).

The outer court is where the Gentiles/unbelievers are.

I absolutely agree with this.

I don't believe in two Israel's at all. I only see one Israel, those who are in Christ, and I do not believe genetic ancestry matters at all, because God's promises to the house of Israel and the house of Judah were all (without exception) fulfilled by Christ when He shed His blood.

Christ is the fulfillment of every promise of God, and those who are not in Him are not Israel, not saints, not elect, not anything.

Again I agree, I don’t believe in the 2 peoples of God idea either.

I believe God regards unbelieving Jews and unbelieving Gentiles alike as Gentiles, and Gentiles who are in Christ as elect Israelites because Christ represents all those who are in Him. If anyone is in Christ he is a new creature. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in Christ, and outside is the outer court of the Gentiles (unbelievers), which includes Jews who are unbelievers.

So I would say this is currently true but was not true prior to the cross. I think Ephesians 2:11-13 best explains this. There were certainly Gentiles saved before the cross but they had to become part of Israel. A Philistine could not remain a Philistine and be saved, he had no hope unless he became an Israelite. Nineveh would be the exception.

So I believe that this attack will defeat the church and the power of Christians both in their ability to evangelize, and to worship freely, and the church can most certainly be overcome by the beast, especially if people are being forced to either worship the image of the beast or be killed, or are being led away captive (Revelation 13:9-10).

Here is where I think we differ the most. I personally don’t think being martyred is being overcome, I would say it only magnifies Christ. So I don’t see any examples that would prefigure true believers being overcome by death other than prior to the cross (when the dead went to Sheol).

One other point on this that I have a hard time understanding is that if true believers currently understand that they will be overcome when the beast arrives they should want this to occur. In Acts 5:41 they rejoiced that they were counted worthy to suffer. True believers should desire for Gods will to be done on earth and they certainly believe that future prophesied events are going to be fulfilled as described. As it says in Romans 12:21 be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. Revelation 13:7 ends up being the beast and saints overcoming each other simultaneously. On top of all this, all things work together for good to them that love God.

I just can’t understand how true believers would perceive themselves as being overcome.

 

[DavidPT]

Do you know what an assumptuos, loaded, question is ?

An example would be - How many times did you beat your wife last night ?

Your question assumes that John was told to...

1. measure the temple
2. measure the altar
3. measure them that worship therein

i.e. you are mentally reading the verse this way.... And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and measure the altar, and measure them that worship therein.

....measuring each as a separate item. Which obviously does not make sense because a rod is not used for measuring people. instead of...

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

You are not considering that John was looking at the temple complex when he was given the rod. The temple is comprised of a sanctuary building, two courts, and an altar; and that John saw people worshiping therein the inner court and the outer court. It is indicating that the temple was not desolate at that time of John's task to measure the temple. And that Jews were actively conducting temple ceremonies, offering burnt sacrifices on the altar.

John measured the overall perimeter of the temple complex, leaving out the outer court as he was told.

We are not given the result of John's measurement, but that will become apparent of why not when the temple is actually built. What the two verses are doing is alerting us at the time of the Antichrist the size of the temple will be downsized, imo.

Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

It seems straightforward to me. Verse 1 records everything that is to be measured, not some things that are to be measured and some things that are not. Verse 2 records what is not to be measured, not some things that are to be measured and some things that are not.

And since it would be ludicrous to literally measure worshipers, this alone tells us a literal temple is not meant here nor is any of this to be taken in the literal sense. Verse 1 makes it clear that John is to measure 3 things. You reject this because it conflicts with your interpretation if this is true, since you know a literal temple can't be meant if John is measuring worshipers therein in any sense.

 

[Zao is life]

I think Ephesians 2:11-13 best explains this. There were certainly Gentiles saved before the cross but they had to become part of Israel. A Philistine could not remain a Philistine and be saved, he had no hope unless he became an Israelite. Nineveh would be the exception.

I see this beyond what you are describing. The key word in verse 11 is "called" because the key word in verse 12 & 13 is Christ:

Ephesians 2:11-12a
"Therefore remember that you, the nations, in time past were in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; and that at that time you were without Christ .."

Therefore,

".. being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who were once afar off are made near by the blood of Christ." Ephesians 2:11-12b-13

Therefore it is being in Christ through faith in the Word of God that always mattered, regardless of genetic ancestry (Romans 4:3) "For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."

Romans 4
16-17 Therefore it is of faith so that it might be according to grace; for the promise to be made sure to all the seed, not only to that which is of the Law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, (as it has been written, "I have made you a father of many nations") --before God, whom he believed, who makes the dead live, and calls the things which do not exist as though they do exist."

This is important:

In Genesis 17:4 God promises Abraham that he would become the father of many goy, many Gentiles (many nations). The Hebrew word translated into nations in Genesis 17:4-5, is goy. This is because the seed of Abraham through whom all nations are blessed, and in whom all the promises of God and covenants are fulfilled, is not Isaac and Jacob, but Christ (2 Corinthians 1:20; Galatians 3:16).

Therefore I believe that the reason why Paul was describing the Gentiles he was talking to as people who had been strangers and foreigners is not because they were not born of Israel (i.e, of Isaac and Jacob, i.e genetic descendants): The reason why they were strangers and aliens to the commonwealth of Israel is because they were without Christ.

The first promise to Abraham was that he would become the father of many nations (that was the first promise God made to Abraham). The second promise was that Sarah would bear him a son.

Why?

The reason is obvious: Christ was going to come into the world in order to save many nations, making Abraham the father of many nations, and in order for this to be achieved, Abraham of necessity had to have a physical nation born of Sarah and fathered by Abraham.

But they who were in the nations were strangers and aliens before the time of Christ not because they were not born of Israel, but because they were without Christ.

Here is where I think we differ the most. I personally don’t think being martyred is being overcome

We differ because we understand two different things by what the "overcoming" is all about.

I understand it as the church (the saints) being overcome in terms of our task in the world: To me Revelation 13:7 is not all about the martyrdom. Though important in terms of the individual's experience, martyrdom is secondary.

Let me explain it this way (Please understand that I know that you know and understand what I am about to say, so I'm not insulting you or trying to be condescending by putting it this way. I'm only putting it this way to explain how I understand the being overcome):

The church (the saints) are not in the world to be 24/7 Christmas decorations. The church has a task in the world:

Matthew 16
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 Jesus answered and said to him, You are blessed, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.
18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven to you. And whatever you may bind on earth shall occur, having been bound in Heaven, and whatever you may loose on earth shall occur, having been loosed in Heaven.

Daniel 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was on the waters of the river, when he held up his right and his left hand to Heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half. And when they have made an end of scattering the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

The beast "overcoming the saints" I see as the beast succeeding for a very brief period in completely shacking the ability of the saints to perform their task. Satan is trying to kill Christianity (God's work), and will succeed in his evil plot for a very brief period. But it will not last. Because in the same way that he was defeated when Christ rose from the dead, so he will be defeated again when the saints rise from the dead.

@grafted branch Added to the above: In Revelation 13 all the world is worshiping the beast because the saints have been overcome.

@grafted branch (added below)

The two witnesses remain dead for 3.5 days. Those who are still alive and remain shall not precede those who have died in Christ. The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we who are still alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the air, to meet the Lord in the air.

And we should comfort one another with these words when this time is upon us.

1 Thessalonians 4
15 For we say this to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall not go before those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall ever be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[Zao is life]

The whole Holy City of Revelation 11 is NOT a physical city in Jerusalem. Rather it represent the congregation of God all over the world making up of TWO GROUPS OF PEOPLE. The Elect and Professed Christians. The Elect are the chosen ones who can be found within the Temple. The court which is outside the temple represents those who do not have a relationship with God yet is part of the City.

It means they are only external believers - the professed believers. They are not measured because they are not chosen ones. They are only one of many called into God's congregation but not saved. They may lip-serving Christ but they re not saved. As a judgment prior to Second Coming, God allowed Satan to come into the court to deceive them and forced them to receive the mark of the beast so they actually owned by Satan. That is the point of Revelation 11.

I'm glad I re-read this without speed-reading it because now I know what @grafted branch was talking about when he referenced what you said.

What you say above is very interesting to me, because I believe that the part of the church that the man of sin leads, which is a harlot, is going to betray the true Christians into the hands of the beast.

This is why I say so:

There are only two men called the son of perdition in the New Testament: The first was Judas Iscariot, of whom we read that Satan entered into him; and the second is the man of sin, of whom we read that his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

We should bear in mind that Judas was one of the apostles, one of the inner circle (i.e what we today would call "a leader of the church"), yet until the time came, not one of the other apostles or any of the disciples suspected him of being a traitor who was going to betray Christ and hand Him into the hands of those who wanted to kill Him.

When Judas handed Christ over to be killed, the event was so dramatic as to cause the sheep to scatter, with even Peter denying three times he even knew Jesus.

I think the second son of perdition, and the professed Christians who follow him in the falling away from the true faith, will be doing the same to the true saints at the close of the Age.

However, the problem I see with believing that these are outside the naos is that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has the man of sin seating himself in the naos, i.e an idol in the Tabernacle of God, which becomes the abomination that causes God to hand the harlot over to desolation:

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

False. Christ's Kingdom is here right now, THROUGH the church!

Yep.

 

[Zao is life]

@Douggg I apologize for calling what you have been writing in this thread "rubbish", but what you have been doing in this thread is as ridiculous as, if someone were to prove to you that the British spelling of the word color, is c o l o u r, saying, No! I (Douggg) spell it c o l o r. The British do not spell it c o l o u r! and then continuing with the same argument, flatly ignoring all the evidence you have been provided with.

Note: Every time you read about Jesus entering the temple in the gospels, the word hieron is used, because Jesus was not a priest and was not allowed into the naos - He was not allowed into either the holy place or the inner sanctuary, i.e the most holy place. But when He referred to His own body as the temple, the Greek uses the word naos. And the very last time the New Testament uses the word naos in reference to the sanctuary of the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses talking about the tearing of the veil....

... I've said it all again and again... now I'm repeating myself...

So I won't talk to you anymore about anything you say regarding the temple mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 if you continue to merely hang onto the same false claims you are making, because it's pointless.

But I apologize for using the word "rubbish" in my post to you.

 

[DavidPT]

I'm glad I re-read this without speed-reading it because now I know what @grafted branch was talking about when he referenced what you said.

What you say above is very interesting to me, because I believe that the part of the church that the man of sin leads, which is a harlot, is going to betray the true Christians into the hands of the beast.

This is why I say so:

There are only two men called the son of perdition in the New Testament: The first was Judas Iscariot, of whom we read that Satan entered into him; and the second is the man of sin, of whom we read that his coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.

We should bear in mind that Judas was one of the apostles, one of the inner circle (i.e what we today would call "a leader of the church"), yet until the time came, not one of the other apostles or any of the disciples suspected him of being a traitor who was going to betray Christ and hand Him into the hands of those who wanted to kill Him.

When Judas handed Christ over to be killed, the event was so dramatic as to cause the sheep to scatter, with even Peter denying three times he even knew Jesus.

I think the second son of perdition, and the professed Christians who follow him in the falling away from the true faith, will be doing the same to the true saints at the close of the Age.

However, the problem I see with believing that these are outside the naos is that 2 Thessalonians 2:4 has the man of sin seating himself in the naos, i.e an idol in the Tabernacle of God, which becomes the abomination that causes God to hand the harlot over to desolation:

Revelation 17
16 and the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked. And they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

Yep.

After having read this post, for the most part I think you and I are somewhat on the same page in regards to a lot of this.

In my view the son of perdition is meaning professed followers of Christ who betray Christ like Judas did, IOW transgressors. These are the ones in Matthew 7 Jesus is going to say to them, though they professed to have done works in His name, I never knew you, depart from me. IOW---Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven(Matthew 7:21).

Getting back to 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked(anomos) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The first thing to take note of is this word 'Wicked' and what it means according to Strong's and how it is used in other verses. It certainly isn't meaning satan as some Amils have proposed in the past.


Wicked
anomos
an'-om-os
from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and nomoV - nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

This same Greek word is used in the following passages.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law(anomos), as without law(anomos), (being not without law(anomos) to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law(anomos).

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless(anomos) and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful(anomos) deeds; )

The next thing to take note of is this--- whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming(2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Compare with.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth : and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

As to 2 Thessalonians 2 as a whole, the context involves transgressors within the church, IOW, the ones that fall away. They are the ones God will be sending strong delusion to, that they should believe a lie.

 

[Zao is life]

After having read this post, for the most part I think you and I are somewhat on the same page in regards to a lot of this.

In my view the son of perdition is meaning professed followers of Christ who betray Christ like Judas did, IOW transgressors. These are the ones in Matthew 7 Jesus is going to say to them, though they professed to have done works in His name, I never knew you, depart from me. IOW---Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven(Matthew 7:21).

Getting back to 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked(anomos) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


The first thing to take note of is this word 'Wicked' and what it means according to Strong's and how it is used in other verses. It certainly isn't meaning satan as some Amils have proposed in the past.


Wicked
anomos
an'-om-os
from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and nomoV - nomos 3551; lawless, i.e. (negatively) not subject to (the Jewish) law; (by implication, a Gentile), or (positively) wicked:--without law, lawless, transgressor, unlawful, wicked.

This same Greek word is used in the following passages.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law(anomos), as without law(anomos), (being not without law(anomos) to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law(anomos).

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless(anomos) and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

2 Peter 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful(anomos) deeds; )

The next thing to take note of is this--- whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming(2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Compare with.

Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth : and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

As to 2 Thessalonians 2 as a whole, the context involves transgressors within the church, IOW, the ones that fall away. They are the ones God will be sending strong delusion to, that they should believe a lie.

I agree with everything you say, and you have given me something to think about when you speak of the man of sin being professed followers of Christ (plural) instead of one man at the top of the pyramid with all his followers below him.

And like you I have also linked the lawlessness spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2 with Matthew 7 (and more recently I've also linked these Christians with Babylon the Great, the harlot).

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

The word "lawlessness" is often translated as "iniquity" in some Bible translations, but I prefer the word lawless. The man of sin is also called the son of perdition, but he is also called "the lawless one" in 2 Thessalonians 2:8

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Its all about lawlessness, which is the opposite of legalism, and akin to antinomianism.

1. Legalism is believing that that law which is the shadow of things to come (Christ) should be or must be obeyed, or the belief that salvation must be earned, or the belief that obeying the law or the letter of the law (or doing good works) somehow contributes to the cost Christ paid for the individual's salvation.

2. Lawlessness is carelessness with sin and doing what we please "because Jesus paid for our salvation and we cannot add to it, and we are safe" (lawlessness will always have OSAS underpinning it).

Definitely the apostasy and lawlessness are the things that characterize the group of Christians being spoken of in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Interesting that it is not of necessity talking about one man though, but of many people. There was a doctrine that came up quite a few years ago among "Christians" (and if you know what I'm talking about please name who they are, because I ignore them, then I forget). I think it has something to do with the term "the manifest sons of God".

The very first time I heard what these people were saying (or read what they were writing?) I thought about 2 Thessalonians 2:4, because they were truly exalting themselves to the status of Godhood. I think the doctrine is still prevalent. I must do some research again.

@DavidPT I just found something here. Didn't take me long to find it. Scrolling down just a little through that document (which is an expose of this movement) and I already came up with this:

Quote from the above document:

3. They will become Christ both corporately and individually. They consider the
corporate body of Christ, to be Christ. The body of Christ is thought to be a literal
extension of the incarnation of Christ. This causes both Scriptures that refer to
His ruling the nations and judging the world to find fulfilment through them.

@DavidPT More:

It also goes under various names, such as, The Latter Rain Movement,
Identity, Joel's Army, Restoration and Reconstruction.

"... those in control (at this time)... are referred to as the 'many-membered
man child,' whom Kingdom Theology adherents believe will be the
fulfillment of Revelation 12:1-5... Those who hold to Kingdom Theology
assume that the Church (some believe only a small group within the
Church, called 'overcomers'), under submission to the latter day apostles
and prophets, is that man child, and that it has the responsibility to put
down all rebellion and establish righteousness... The many-membered
man child must take control of the earth before Jesus can return"

It's sickening stuff.

 

[Douggg]

Note: Every time you read about Jesus entering the temple in the gospels, the word hieron is used, because Jesus was not a priest and was not allowed into the naos - He was not allowed into either the holy place or the inner sanctuary, i.e the most holy place. But when He referred to His own body as the temple, the Greek uses the word naos.

Actually those are "transliterated" Greek words into English.

And the very last time the New Testament uses the word naos in reference to the sanctuary of the temple in Jerusalem, is in the verses talking about the tearing of the veil....

This we are disagreeing on. One example of naos, is the 2Thessalonians2:4 verse about the revealing of the man of sin,
is referring to the literal temple structure.

So I won't talk to you anymore about anything you say regarding the temple mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 11:1-2 if you continue to merely hang onto the same false claims you are making, because it's pointless.

Okay that's fine.

 

[Douggg]

Nonsense. G2411 is the outer court and the rest of the temple precincts, excluding the holy court and the sanctuary in the center.

Jesus prophesied the temple would be made desolate. Was the inner court and the sanctuary made desolate? And destroyed?

No temple sanctuary today on the temple mount.
No burnt offering altar on the temple mount.''

G2411 is not one stone left standing.

 

[jgr]

This we are disagreeing on. One example of naos, is the 2Thessalonians2:4 verse about the revealing of the man of sin,
is referring to the literal temple structure.

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

Where is that Scripture?

 

[Douggg]

Since Scripture interprets Scripture, there must be at least one other Scripture where Paul refers to the literal temple structure as "naos".

There has to be a temple standing for the prince who shall come to stop the daily sacrifice, making it desolate in Daniel 9:27.

Also the little horn (same) stops the daily sacrifice and makes the temple desolate.in Daniel 8:12-13. Before he stand up against the Prince of princes - Jesus later in Daniel 8:25.

______________________________________________

So naos in Revelation 11:1 is referring to that temple, which will include the burnt offering altar and the inner court, where Jews will be worshiping within. But the outer court John was told to leave out measuring.

There is not a word for the temple complex minus the outer court. So the instructions to John compensated for there being no such word. Plus, naos being the temple sanctuary building that the Antichrist reveals himself as the man of sin.

naos - the temple sanctuary only.
hieron - the entire temple complex; the temple sanctuary, the burnt offering altar, the inner court, the outer court, and all the other structures.

No word for - the entire temple complex - minus the outer court. The altar and the people worshipping within is just a way of saying the inner court. Followed up by saying don't measure the outer court.

Revelation 11:1 - measure the temple complex, i.e. the naos the temple sanctuary + the inner court (represented by the burnt offering altar, and the people worshiping within)


Are you going to spiritualize the 42 months in Revelation 11:2 ?

 

[Zao is life]

@TribulationSigns @DavidPT @jgr @grafted branch @Douggg

I've been thinking about this expression "Professed followers of Christ" that came up in this thread, and I don't actually agree with its basic premise with regards to what sort of believers are in the naos, and that those in the outer court of the Gentiles can be defined as "professed Christians", for the following reasons:

1. No one is a Christian because of anything they did. People are Christians

* Because of what Jesus did; and
* Because they believe it (John 3:18)

2. Very few people have the ability to keep up the facade for a prolonged period of time if they are pretending to believe something they don't actually believe, and people who do this will always have a motive: Maybe a bloke who does not believe in Jesus, but desires a lady who he learns is a Christian, then starts going to church (to her church, of course) to get to meet her. He pretends to be a Christian and manages to keep up the facade for a while, in order to impress her (or, maybe someone for whom church is a better sort of "social club" for them to belong to than the pub or some other club where there's a lot of drinking and swearing and adultery taking place).

But it takes a person with a special ability to keep up the facade for a prolonged period of time.

3. There are many who believe in Jesus, believe that He died for them on the cross and rose again from the dead, and who are saved by grace, but this does not of necessity mean that they are all lovers of truth.

Look around you: How many Christians who believe in Jesus do you think have a (truly) deep desire to:

(a) understand the Bible; and
(b) be sure that they correctly understand what the Bible teaches; and hence
( c ) do not follow fads or one wind of doctrine after another, or do not believe what their human imaginations prefer the Bible to be saying; and
(d) do not continuously and without conscience loosely compromise with sinful behaviors wherever and whenever they please, as often as they please (because, after all, you know, OSAS)? (Please note: I'm not saying that anyone who believes in OSAS is therefore given to lawlessness).

Everyone fails at some point at times. No Christian is perfect and perfectly sinless. But are they not Christians if they fail continuously on an almost permanent basis in any or all of the above?

Truly, we can't actually say that, because if they actually do believe the gospel, and actually do believe in Jesus, we would ourselves be denying that our salvation was paid for by the blood of Christ, and that we cannot add to it, and that believing on Him is what saves us.

But now think of the teaching in some mega churches and the practices that have taken place over the last few decades alone (hysterical laughing, fake healing, adultery of Pastors, etc etc etc) and consider the teaching of the latter rain movement and the "manifest sons of God" etc.

Do none of these people in these churches and movements believe in Jesus? Are they all pretending that they (actually do believe) in Jesus, and that He died for our sin and rose again from the dead?

I believe very, very few of them (if any) do not believe in Jesus, and they know and understand that no one is a Christian because of anything they did. People are Christians:

* Because of what Jesus did for us; and
* Because we believe it (John 3:18)

So why are some Christians being so easy with:

(a) following all sorts of false doctrines, and refusing to hear when the biblical truth regarding prosperity doctrines, name it a claim it etc etc etc is pointed out to them (2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9);

(b) sin?

Aside from the fact that (quite probably) underpinning all the above is a belief in OSAS, if a person actually does believe in Jesus, does believe the gospel, and does believe the basic tenets of the faith of Jesus and of His apostles, then they are in Christ, i.e in the "naos".

The man of sin will seat himself in the naos.

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already working, only he is now holding back until it comes out of the midst.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming,
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.

Believing in Jesus (even if we do believe in Jesus) is not enough for any of us to claim we love the truth:

Matthew 7
22 Many will say to Me in that day, Lord! Lord! Did we not prophesy in Your name, and through Your name throw out demons, and through Your name do many wonderful works?
23 And then I will say to them I never knew you! Depart from Me, those working lawlessness!

lawlessness is the opposite of legalism, and it's akin to antinomianism.

1. Legalism is believing that that law which is the shadow of things to come (Christ) must or ought to be obeyed, or the belief that salvation can be somehow earned, or the belief that obeying the law or the letter of the law (or doing good works) somehow contributes to the cost Christ paid for our salvation.

2. Lawlessness is carelessness with sin, and also believing what we please "because Jesus paid for our salvation and we cannot add to it, so we are safe" (i.e underpinning lawlessness is a belief in OSAS). I think it can be almost 100% guaranteed that lawlessness, when practiced by those who actually do believe in Jesus, will always have OSAS underpinning it. It helps Christians to not have a healthy fear of God (2 Corinthians 5:11), and it also helps to sear the conscience (2 Timothy 4:2).

Please note: By no means does this mean that everyone who believes in OSAS is given to lawlessness.

"Professed Christians" outside?​

I don't believe that those who are in the naos are the "real" Christians and that there are "professed Christians" outside, in the court of the Gentiles.

Rather, I believe that there has always been a part of God's elect, in the days of the Old Testament as well as in the days of the New Testament, that is a harlot. In the days of the New Testament there is a harlot group who is in the naos through their faith in Christ.

The man of sin, the lawless one, will seat himself in the naos (not in the outer court).

2 Thessalonians 2
9 whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, so that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
12 so that all those who do not believe the truth, but delight in unrighteousness, might be condemned.