New Info on Numbers 1260, 1290, 1335 and 42

[Douggg]

ohn 12
31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself.
33 But He said this, signifying what kind of death He was about to die.

Revelation 12
5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death.

In your many assumptions, you're making the death and resurrection of Jesus of no consequence to the casting out of Satan.

John 12:31-33, is that by Jesus's death and resurrection, man can be freed from the penalty of sin. Which makes it possible for God to destroy Satan and His angels for their sins, without also destroying all of mankind in equal justice.

In Revelation 12:7-9 Satan will be cast out from the second heaven, by Michael and his angels - after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 (the 1260 days of the two witnesses) when the 7th angel sounds as God begins taking the kingdoms of this world from Satan's control.

The action of Michael and his angels refers back to Daniel 12:1. When Satan is cast down to earth for the time/times/half time in Revelation 12:14 which he persecutes the woman as the time of trouble in in verse 1 below.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, Daniel's people.

Daneil 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The woman who gave birth to the Messiah was protected in a symbolic wilderness for literally 1,260 days: the final 3.5 years of Daniel's 70th week. Or she (the Church) literally fled into the wilderness during the 66-70 A.D Roman war against Judea (making a gap of 40 years and not 2,000 years between the middle of Daniel's 70th week, and the close of it). Either way, the 1,260 days is 100% literal, occurred at the beginning of the Age, and brought Daniel's 70th week to a close.

I agree with that the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 the woman is in a symbolic wilderness. But the woman is Israel, and 1260 days is the first half of the one week of Daniel 9:27, during which Israel will have mistakenly think the Antichrist is her messiah.

The time/times/half time of Revelation 12:14 is in the second half of the seven years.

The one week of Daniel 9:27 is not the beginning of the church age.

Daniel 9:27 is end times and begins with confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years requirement by Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, by the Antichrist. To be done in the near future.

 

[Christian Gedge]

is it possible that Daniel didn’t understand the significance of the “times, time, and half”?

Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

Surely Daniel understood the workings of the calendar. However, the Holy Spirit picks up these numbers and applies them in a prophetic revelation. That's the difficult part to understand isn't it?

I've often said, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" Ive looked at preterist scenarios as well as futurist scenarios. There are pros and cons to both of them. The only thing that I can offer here is that they were repeating formulas. Therefore, by extension, we we should not gather up every mention in the Bible and force them all to mean the same event.

 

[Torah Keeper]

I read somewhere that Daniel was in charge of the calendar for Babylon so that is why it is so similar to the Hebrews. The Jews didn't learn it from Babylon, Daniel taught it to the Babylonians. He was the chief of the wise men after all.

An interesting thing I learned from reading about the Babylonian calendar during the time of Daniel was they never started the new year earlier than 5 days before the equinox. The reason for this was to make sure the Feast of Tabernacles would always occur during the Fall. There is a command in the Torah to keep this feast in the Fall.

The Babylonians could care less about making sure the Feast of Tabernacles was in the Fall. So this means Daniel was very knowledgable about the calendar. Even to adjusting for Feasts to land at the proper time. The Hillel calendar overlooks this. I think Daniel knew a lot more than we realize.

What CG and others like us are seeing in these numbers and patterns is the tip of an iceberg. As Daniel wrote, "knowledge shall be increased", so as our knowledge increases we will better understand.

 

[claninja]

Surely Daniel understood the workings of the calendar. However, the Holy Spirit picks up these numbers and applies them in a prophetic revelation. That's the difficult part to understand isn't it?

I've often said, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" Ive looked at preterist scenarios as well as futurist scenarios. There are pros and cons to both of them. The only thing that I can offer here is that they were repeating formulas. Therefore, by extension, we we should not gather up every mention in the Bible and force them all to mean the same event.

Good point. Thanks CG!

 

[keras]

NO ONE has yet addressed the prophecy in:
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore; I shall make the heavens shudder and the earth will move out of her place on the Day of the Lord's fierce anger.
As alluded to in many other prophesies, like Revelation 6:14

This Prophetic truth does explain how the days, months, years; as stated in Daniel and Revelation will be made to correlate exactly.
Our year will change to exactly 360 days.

Any other fanciful or seemingly erudite explanation just fails to take note of what the Prophets actually said.

 

[Zao is life]

NO ONE has yet addressed the prophecy in:
Isaiah 13:13 Therefore; I shall make the heavens shudder and the earth will move out of her place on the Day of the Lord's fierce anger.
As alluded to in many other prophesies, like Revelation 6:14

This Prophetic truth does explain how the days, months, years; as stated in Daniel and Revelation will be made to correlate exactly.
Our year will change to exactly 360 days.

Any other fanciful or seemingly erudite explanation just fails to take note of what the Prophets actually said.

Very few understand that the Revelation and much of New Testament apocalyptic language uses much of the same metaphor which appears for example in the prophecies about the coming destruction of Babylon (which was fulfilled in history long before the time of Jesus).

And because they fail to recognize the Bible's repeated and consistent use of metaphor in apocalyptic/prophetic language, they end up believing that prophecies that have already been fulfilled, have never been fulfilled.

Simile: "And He brought him outside and said, Look now toward the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be." Genesis 15:5

Simile: "..that in blessing I will bless you, and in multiplying I will multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens, and as the sand which is upon the seashore. And your Seed shall possess the gate of His enemies." Genesis 22:17

Simile: "And those who are wise shall shine as the brightness of the sky; and those who turn many to righteousness shall shine as the stars forever and ever." Daniel 12:3

Metaphor:"Zebulun and Naphtali were a people who put their lives in danger of death in the high places of the field. Kings came and fought. Then the kings of Canaan fought in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo. They took no gain of silver. They fought from heaven; the stars in their courses fought against Sisera." Judges 5:18-20.

"The stars in their courses" are a metaphor for the sons of Zebulun and Naphtali who fought in the above battle.

Metaphor: "And he dreamed still another dream, and told it to his brothers. And he said, Behold, I have dreamed another dream. And behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars bowed down to me." Genesis 37:9-10

Metaphor: "And there appeared a great sign in the heavens, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon was under her feet, and a crown of twelve stars on her head." Revelation 12:1

Metaphor in verses 10 & 13 of Isaiah 13 (a prophecy regarding the coming destruction of Babylon, which has already been fulfilled):

1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw:

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together; the LORD of hosts gathers an army for the battle.
5 They come from a far country, from the end of the heavens, the LORD and the weapons of His indignation, to destroy all land.

9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste; and He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations shall not give light; the sun shall be darkened in its going forth, and the moon shall not reflect its light.

11 And I will visit evil on the world, and their iniquity on the wicked. And I will cause the arrogance of the proud to cease, and will lay low the pride of tyrants.
12 I will make a man more precious than gold; even a man than the fine gold of Ophir.
13 So I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall move out of its place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.

17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, who shall not value silver; and they shall not delight in gold.
18 And bows shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not pity sons.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the majestic beauty of the Chaldees, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.
20 It shall never be inhabited forever, nor shall it be lived in from generation to generation; nor shall the Arabian pitch his tent there; nor shall the shepherds make their flocks lie down there."

So the Revelation and New Testament uses the same metaphor the Bible uses throughout in its apocalyptic/prophetic language, and those among the saints of the 20th and 21st centuries who have little understanding but believe they have a lot, say, "See, this has never happened yet. This is what lies ahead in the future", and then they wind up mentally using their mouse to highlight apocalyptic/prophetic passages in scripture that have already been fulfilled, dragging them all over the place into centuries and epochs that the prophecies do not belong in.

But few understand that the Revelation lifts the reader out of "time" and shows how things keep repeating themselves across time, so that one thing becomes a biblical type of another.

Newsflash: Babylon has already been destroyed. The verses quoted above have already been fulfilled. The destruction of Babylon has become a type of the destruction of the nations at the end of this Age when Christ returns, and the Revelation uses the same metaphor used repeatedly and consistently throughout the Bible in the Bible's apocalyptic/prophetic passages to describe certain things.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you are right. It’s a question I ask myself too, especially when we interpret the book of Revelation literally. In the case of Revelation 12 though, it is so symbolic that I’m inclined to think John is using these old numbers to represent things. Unless the old calendar gets put to use again. Oh, the thinks that we can think!

Have a great Christmas bro.

This was a repeat. Sorry.

 

[Zao is life]

Surely Daniel understood the workings of the calendar. However, the Holy Spirit picks up these numbers and applies them in a prophetic revelation. That's the difficult part to understand isn't it?

I've often said, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" Ive looked at preterist scenarios as well as futurist scenarios. There are pros and cons to both of them. The only thing that I can offer here is that they were repeating formulas. Therefore, by extension, we we should not gather up every mention in the Bible and force them all to mean the same event.

We can understand whether or not the 1,260 days during which "the woman" is (or was) in the wilderness is referring symbolically to the entire Age, or to the beginning of the Age, or to the end of the Age by asking ourselves some questions, and answering those questions:

Question 1: Why did the dragon go to war against the woman who had brought the Messiah into the world?

Answer: Because he was enraged with the woman who had given birth to the child when he saw he had been cast out, and cast down to the earth (Revelation 12:12-16).

Question 2: When was the dragon cast down to the earth?

Answer: When the woman's child had been caught up to God and to His throne (Revelation 12:5-11).

Question 3: What did the dragon do when the earth helped the woman (Revelation 12:16)?

Answer: He went to make war with "the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:17).

Question 4: Does scripture tell us when the dragon's war with "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" began, and when it will end?

Answer: Yes, it does, in the following verses:-

1 Peter 5:8-9; Ephesians 6:11-12; Revelation 2:9-10 & 13; 1 Thessalonians 2:18; James 4:7.

The above verses tell us that it spans the entire Age, and culminates with the beast and false prophet's war against the saints at the close of the Age (Revelation 13:7 & 15).

Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 and Ephesians 2:2 tell us about Satan's influence over the societies of this world, this Age.

So we have the dragon being cast out and cast down to earth when the woman's child had been caught up to God and His throne, and the dragon going to war against the woman who had given birth to the Messiah the moment he saw he had been cast down to earth, and when the earth helped the woman, the dragon then going to war with "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ", which scripture teaches us will continue for the rest of the Age, culminating with the beast and false prophet's war against the saints at the close of the Age.

So if we keep Revelation 12:1-16 in context, it's all referring to the very beginning of the Age, and the woman (who was that part of the nation of Israel which is God's elect, a.k.a the church of the Old Testament) fled into the wilderness immediately following the time her child was "caught up to God and to His throne", because that's when the devil was cast down and became enraged with the woman who had given birth to the child.

 

[Zao is life]

Deleted and posted elsewhere.

 

[Zao is life]

In Revelation 12:7-9 Satan will be cast out from the second heaven, by Michael and his angels - after the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6 (the 1260 days of the two witnesses) when the 7th angel sounds as God begins taking the kingdoms of this world from Satan's control.

The action of Michael and his angels refers back to Daniel 12:1. When Satan is cast down to earth for the time/times/half time in Revelation 12:14 which he persecutes the woman as the time of trouble in in verse 1 below.

The woman in Revelation 12 is Israel, Daniel's people.

You need to see to that mouse of yours. The battery must be flat, because you're dragging prophecies out of their own historical context and pasting them into other centuries and epochs where they do not belong, for example,

In Revelation 12:7-9 Satan will be cast out from the second heaven

Past tense of 2,000 years ago. Will never be future tense.

The one week of Daniel 9:27 is indeed the beginning of the church age. You need to close your faulty Dispensationist text books that exist in your mind and open the Bible without reference to your faulty Dispensational text books.

Daniel 12:1 was fulfilled in the days of Antiochus, but because things keep repeating themselves Michael and his angels fought again when Christ had ascended into heaven. But unlike in Daniel 12:1, this time they were able to cast Satan out completely, and down to the earth because the death and resurrection of the Messiah had pulled the rug out of Satan's state-prosecutor feet.

Different epochs, different events. The one became the type of the other.

You really need a new battery in that mouse of yours. You're dragging biblical prophecies out of their historical context and dropping them into centuries and epochs where they do not belong.

 

[Zao is life]

Surely Daniel understood the workings of the calendar. However, the Holy Spirit picks up these numbers and applies them in a prophetic revelation. That's the difficult part to understand isn't it?

I've often said, "O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?" Ive looked at preterist scenarios as well as futurist scenarios. There are pros and cons to both of them. The only thing that I can offer here is that they were repeating formulas. Therefore, by extension, we we should not gather up every mention in the Bible and force them all to mean the same event.

Also remember that "the rest of the woman's seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" only came into existence on the day of Pentecost, exactly ten days after the woman's child had been "caught up to God and to His throne". The woman had already existed since long, long before that time.

 

[keras]

Very few understand that the Revelation and much of New Testament apocalyptic language uses much of the same metaphor which appears for example in the prophecies about the coming destruction of Babylon (which was fulfilled in history long before the time of Jesus).

And because they fail to recognize the Bible's repeated and consistent use of metaphor in apocalyptic/prophetic language, they end up believing that prophecies that have already been fulfilled, have never been fulfilled.

Firstly, you avoid Isaiah 13:13. That plainly stated Prophecy has NOT yet been fulfilled.
As for Babylon, it is generally accepted that 'Babylon', since Cyrus destroyed the original Babylon; refers to any ungodly city.
Which applies to virtually every city on earth today.

The; in one Day destruction by fire, as vividly described in Revelation 18:8, has never yet happened.
But it surely will, God has destroyed His enemies before; by water. This time by fire. 2 Peter 3:7

 

[Zao is life]

Firstly, you avoid Isaiah 13:13. That plainly stated Prophecy has NOT yet been fulfilled.
As for Babylon, it is generally accepted that 'Babylon', since Cyrus destroyed the original Babylon; refers to any ungodly city.
Which applies to virtually every city on earth today.

The; in one Day destruction by fire, as vividly described in Revelation 18:8, has never yet happened.
But it surely will, God has destroyed His enemies before; by water. This time by fire. 2 Peter 3:7

Lol. I never avoided Isaiah 13:13. I tried to explain to you that it is a metaphor, and the entire passage has been fulfilled. It's just metaphor which indicates the totality of the calamity which comes upon kings and nations when God's judgment falls upon them.

LOL. It's you who's completely avoided (and who's chosen to continue to completely avoid) the fact that Isaiah 13:13 is a metaphor which indicates the totality of the calamity which comes upon kings and nations when God's judgment falls upon them. It is not literal, and is typical of the repeated and consistent use of that metaphorical language found throughout apocalyptic/prophetic literature.

You want Isaiah 13, which talks about the destruction of ancient Babylon, to have been fulfilled and yet not to have been fulfilled, because you refuse to understand that the destruction of Babylon became a type of the destruction of the nations at the end of the Age, and that this is why the Revelation uses the same metaphor that was used to describe the destruction of Babylon. You want the metaphor to be literal and the literal destruction of ancient Babylon to have both taken place and yet never to have taken place because you want the metaphor of verses like Isaiah 13:13 to be literal (which it is not).

I was trying to show you that because you completely fail to recognize the metaphor in verses like Isaiah 13:13, you're unable to keep biblical historical passages in their historical setting where they belong, and because it results in you using a faulty eschatological mouse, your mouse has highlighted and dragged dozens of prophecies out of their historical settings and dropped them into different centuries and epochs where they do not belong, into folders that you have given your own labels (normally the one which you have labelled "the end of the Age and the return of Christ").

This is why you keep misinterpreting biblical apocalyptic/prophetic literature - because you fail to first recognize and acknowledge the metaphor in verses like Isaiah 13:13.

 

[keras]

This is why you keep misinterpreting biblical apocalyptic/prophetic literature - because you fail to first recognize and acknowledge the metaphor in verses like Isaiah 13:13.

Metaphorical of what exactly?

Saying that Isaiah 13:13 and most other like Prophesies are metaphorical, is plainly wrong as they tell of events which can literally happen.
Events that have no historical fulfilment, if they have occurred we would surely know about them.

The denial of these clearly described disasters, is a bad mistake and simply leaves people in the dark. 1 Thess 5:4

 

[Timtofly]

@3 Resurrections

I think that Matthew and Mark and some of the other disciples were in a different part of the temple complex when Jesus addressed the onlookers comments on how beautiful the temple was in Luke 21. Luke was there, so he wrote down what Jesus said.

My reasoning is that the issue came up again about how beautiful the temple was, this time by the disciples themselves, as the disciples were leaving the temple complex, outside of the temple, on their way walking to the Mount of Olives....as if they did not hear what Jesus had already been spoken about it earlier.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

__________________________________________________________________

So, there is an account by Luke of what Jesus said in the temple complex to the onlookers. Which is the 70 ad destruction of the temple and city for reason of vengeance (by the Romans).

And then afterward, on the disciples' way to the mount of olives, there are the two accounts by Matthew and Mark of what Jesus said on the mount of Olives, which those Matthew and Mark accounts included the abomination of desolation.

But Luke never mentioned the abomination of desolation, because Jesus did not refer to it while he was in the temple complex in Luke 21. Jesus did refer to what was written Daniel 9:26, in Luke 21:22. Which was fulfilled in 70AD.

The abomination of desolation though is still future, which is at the time of the end. Our generation.

The abomination of desolation will be the image of the beast, a statue, to be incarnated by Satan, and standing in the temple courtyard.

Who claims Luke was an eyewitness?

"Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,"

Luke claims to have perfect understanding, but never claims he was an eyewitness. He was trained as a doctor to examine all the evidence and place the details accordingly. I am not sure one can claim he was an eyewitness though.

 

[Zao is life]

@Christian Gedge

I've been wanting to ask you two questions which have been on my mind lately (I just want to know what you think of this):

Question 1: Bearing in mind that

1. Satan entered into Judas just before Judas betrayed Jesus (John 13:27); and

2. That the veil in the physical temple was torn when Jesus died (Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45),

do you think that possibly,

(a) John 2:19-22 and Daniel 9:27 are linked; and

(b) That the words "let the reader understand" in Matthew 24:15 is written in order to make Christians who believe that the temple that was destroyed in A.D 70 was no longer considered the Tabernacle of God after Jesus died, aware that Matthew 24:15, if (IF) it's pointing to a Temple at the close of the Age, then it's pointing to the New Testament Temple (which Paul later mentions in 2 Thessalonians 2:4)?

Question 2: Since

i. Christ is the Tabernacle of God, and
ii. His body is the Tabernacle of God; and
iii. Satan entered into Judas, who betrayed the Messiah into the hands of those who wanted to kill Him; and
iv. The veil was torn when the Messiah died; and
v. The Messiah descended into hades for three and a half days before rising again from the dead,

how important is the physical temple that was destroyed in A.D 70 or any physical temple (whether quickly erected in Jerusalem again, or not) in terms of the words "abomination of desolation"?

 

[Christian Gedge]

do you think that possibly,

John 2:19-22 and Daniel 9:27 are linked; and … <snip> … if (IF) it's pointing to a Temple at the close of the Age, then it's pointing to the New Testament Temple (which Paul later mentions in 2 Thessalonians 2:4)?

how important is the physical temple that was destroyed in A.D 70 or any physical temple (whether quickly erected in Jerusalem again, or not) in terms of the words "abomination of desolation"?

I’ll give this a go, but don’t shoot me if I’m wrong. Linking these verses are quite a challenge.
Jesus is speaking of his temple the church; Daniel is speaking of Israel’s temple which would be destroyed after the 70 weeks were complete; Paul is speaking of a future (abominable) temple.

Yes, I do think something is going to be built in the future. But I don’t think that it will be exclusively Jewish as envisaged by many end time writers. My guess is that it will be some sort of new-age compromise between the world’s religions. I can’t see how God would ever let his true temple be abominated in the future.

 

[Zao is life]

I’ll give this a go, but don’t shoot me if I’m wrong. Linking these verses are quite a challenge.
Jesus is speaking of his temple the church; Daniel is speaking of Israel’s temple which would be destroyed after the 70 weeks were complete; Paul is speaking of a future (abominable) temple.

Yes, I do think something is going to be built in the future. But I don’t think that it will be exclusively Jewish as envisaged by many end time writers. My guess is that it will be some sort of new-age compromise between the world’s religions. I can’t see how God would ever let his true temple be abominated in the future.

Thanks. I'm starting to realize how dim my eyes are

 

[keras]

I do think something is going to be built in the future. But I don’t think that it will be exclusively Jewish as envisaged by many end time writers.

Zechariah 6:15 ...men will come from far away to build the Temple....
is proof; the Jews will not build the new Temple.

The new Temple will be built to the glory of God, 2 Thess 2:4, by the Christian peoples; all the Israelites of God, as described in Ezekiel 40 to 46

I can’t see how God would ever let his true temple be abominated in the future.

He will allow it, for His purposes. All to do with the testing of mankind.
Who are true believers and who will fall by the wayside.

 

[Christian Gedge]

I can’t see how God would ever let his true temple be abominated in the future.

He will allow it, for His purposes. All to do with the testing of mankind.
Who are true believers and who will fall by the wayside.

The verse that springs to mind is Matt. 16:18, "I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."