New Info on Numbers 1260, 1290, 1335 and 42

[Timtofly]

What are you talking about? You never make any sense.

If God declares animal sacrifices, you seem to be one to stand up and say, "But God, You said this way back when..."

You are questioning God, not making any points.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If God declares animal sacrifices, you seem to be one to stand up and say, "But God, You said this way back when..."

You are questioning God, not making any points.

I'm not questioning God, I'm reading in Hebrews 10 that He takes no pleasure in animal sacrifices and has no desire for them. There's no indication anywhere that He would ever change His mind about that. Is Hebrews 10 in your Bible?

 

[jgr]

Hebrews 10 doesn't say that God will never again require His people to offer sacrifices.
We do not know the Mind of God. God tells us thru His prophets; that our offerings will again be acceptable to Him. Isaiah 56:8-7, Ezekiel 20:40-41, and Daniel 9:27 says how the Anti-Christ will stop them.

Why must you attack me jgr? Your dispute is with the Bible prophets, it is them who contradict your beliefs.
Of course; it is easier to shoot the messenger, than to refute his message.

In Hebrews 10:9, which declares "He taketh away the first", "He" is Christ.

What is "the first"?

 

[Timtofly]

I'm not questioning God, I'm reading in Hebrews 10 that He takes no pleasure in animal sacrifices and has no desire for them. There's no indication anywhere that He would ever change His mind about that. Is Hebrews 10 in your Bible?

It is still future. You do not know the future. You claim it has to be the past and only the past. You have yet to explain Revelation 7:15.

God can set up animal sacrifices as He sees fit, just like He can declare them unfit when He sees fit. Your argument is based on the Law of Moses which did not atone for sins then, why should it ever? The only Atonement since before creation that ever mattered was the Cross. God did not even need the OT Law. That was only an economy that foreshadowed a yet human event. But that event already happened for God. So any temple and sacrifices in the future will be because God set them up as an economy and not for Atonement purposes which Hebrews 10 is telling us.

Your argument is not even for the same purpose. You may as well argue that the OT economy of temple sacrifices was also just as wrong as a future temple system. That was the claim being made in Hebrews 10.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It is still future. You do not know the future. You claim it has to be the past and only the past. You have yet to explain Revelation 7:15.

God can set up animal sacrifices as He sees fit, just like He can declare them unfit when He sees fit. Your argument is based on the Law of Moses which did not atone for sins then, why should it ever? The only Atonement since before creation that ever mattered was the Cross. God did not even need the OT Law. That was only an economy that foreshadowed a yet human event. But that event already happened for God. So any temple and sacrifices in the future will be because God set them up as an economy and not for Atonement purposes which Hebrews 10 is telling us.

You have no scripture to back up anything you're saying which is always the case. You say these supposed future sacrifices "will be because God set them up as an economy", whatever that even means. That's not what the prophecy that you base your belief on says they would be for.

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

You say "not for Atonement purposes"? You apparently don't even read the scripture that you base your beliefs on.

Your argument is not even for the same purpose. You may as well argue that the OT economy of temple sacrifices was also just as wrong as a future temple system. That was the claim being made in Hebrews 10.

No, it served its purpose as God intended, so why would I say it was wrong? You have no idea of what you're talking about. None whatsoever. Hebrews 10 makes it clear that animal sacrifices only had the purpose of foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice. So, they have already served their purpose.

 

[Timtofly]

You have no scripture to back up anything you're saying which is always the case. You say these supposed future sacrifices "will be because God set them up as an economy", whatever that even means. That's not what the prophecy that you base your belief on says they would be for.

Ezekiel 45:15 Also one sheep is to be taken from every flock of two hundred from the well-watered pastures of Israel. These will be used for the grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the people, declares the Sovereign Lord. 16 All the people of the land will be required to give this special offering to the prince in Israel. 17 It will be the duty of the prince to provide the burnt offerings, grain offerings and drink offerings at the festivals, the New Moons and the Sabbaths—at all the appointed festivals of Israel. He will provide the sin offerings, grain offerings, burnt offerings and fellowship offerings to make atonement for the Israelites.

You say "not for Atonement purposes"? You apparently don't even read the scripture that you base your beliefs on.

No, it served its purpose as God intended, so why would I say it was wrong? You have no idea of what you're talking about. None whatsoever. Hebrews 10 makes it clear that animal sacrifices only had the purpose of foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice. So, they have already served their purpose.

That is not what I said, and you complain of being misspoken? I pointed out God has every right to do as He pleases. If there is such an economy, you seem to be more than likely against it.

You claim that this is a future event or a past one. Do you think the two Scriptures contradict each other. There was only one Atonement ever, if you go with Hebrews. You can force it or claim foreshadowing. Why do these Scriptures give you the right to deny any future plans God has for the 1000 year reign found in Revelation 20?

 

[keras]

In Hebrews 10:9, which declares "He taketh away the first", "He" is Christ.

What is "the first"?

While you refuse to address the scriptures which say there will be a new Temple and offerings will be made in it, then we are at an impasse.

Quite soon, the Day will come when those whose eyes have been blinded and their ears stopped, will at last; understand the Lord's plans for His people. Isaiah 42:18-20, Isaiah 29:24

 

[jeffweedaman]

Quite soon, the Day will come when those whose eyes have been blinded and their ears stopped, will at last; understand the Lord's plans for His people.

Very true . I cannot wait to see the look on your face when this happens on the last day when Jesus comes again.

 

[jgr]

While you refuse to address the scriptures which say there will be a new Temple and offerings will be made in it, then we are at an impasse.

Quite soon, the Day will come when those whose eyes have been blinded and their ears stopped, will at last; understand the Lord's plans for His people. Isaiah 42:18-20, Isaiah 29:24

I quote Hebrews 10 which addresses them for me.

Why do you refuse to address Hebrews 10?

You've told us what you believe the OT Scriptures say.

Now tell us what you believe "the first" in Hebrews 10:9 means.

 

[keras]

I quote Hebrews 10 which addresses them for me.

Why do you refuse to address Hebrews 10?

You've told us what you believe the OT Scriptures say.

Now tell us what you believe "the first" in Hebrews 10:9 means.

I have already said that Hebrews 10 does not preclude the recommencement of sacrifices and offerings. Basically you are trying to tell God what He wants!
Denial of the scriptures I present here, is a flat out rejection of Bible truths:

When the Lord’s righteous people go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, Ezekiel 34:11-31, they will build a new Temple in Jerusalem, according to the details given in Ezekiel 40-46

Many Old Testament prophesies attest to this, how it will be built by men from far away, Zechariah 6:15, and it will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

The New Testament too, makes it clear there will be a Temple, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2, that will exist until the end of the Millennium, when God Himself will be the Temple. Revelation 21:22

We are told that during this age of Church dispensation, Christ is our high priest and we are the spiritual Temple, 2 Cor. 6:16 and no sacrifices are required. Hosea 9:4
Hebrews 9 & 10:1-21 are the scriptures that clearly tell us that Jesus made the once and forever sacrifice for the expiation of our sins. Now there is no Temple and Christians are His ‘body’ on earth. This is just for the time from the early church until the new Temple is built, when there will again be offerings and thanksgiving gifts made by the Lord’s holy people. Isaiah 56:1-8, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 7:9-14


Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.


The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. During the Millennium, there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6 and the nations must come annually to worship and make sacrifices. Zechariah 14:16-21

But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22

 

[keras]

Very true . I cannot wait to see the look on your face when this happens on the last day when Jesus comes again.

If I am wrong, I will stand on my own. [Spiritually with the Prophets]
If you are wrong, there will be plenty of embarrassed fools for your company.

 

[jgr]

I have already said that Hebrews 10 does not preclude the recommencement of sacrifices and offerings. Basically you are trying to tell God what He wants!
Denial of the scriptures I present here, is a flat out rejection of Bible truths:

When the Lord’s righteous people go to live in all of the Holy Land, soon after it is cleared and cleansed by the Lord’s Day of fiery wrath, Ezekiel 34:11-31, they will build a new Temple in Jerusalem, according to the details given in Ezekiel 40-46

Many Old Testament prophesies attest to this, how it will be built by men from far away, Zechariah 6:15, and it will be greater than the former ones. Haggai 2:9

The New Testament too, makes it clear there will be a Temple, 2 Thess. 2:4, Rev. 11:1-2, that will exist until the end of the Millennium, when God Himself will be the Temple. Revelation 21:22

We are told that during this age of Church dispensation, Christ is our high priest and we are the spiritual Temple, 2 Cor. 6:16 and no sacrifices are required. Hosea 9:4
Hebrews 9 & 10:1-21 are the scriptures that clearly tell us that Jesus made the once and forever sacrifice for the expiation of our sins. Now there is no Temple and Christians are His ‘body’ on earth. This is just for the time from the early church until the new Temple is built, when there will again be offerings and thanksgiving gifts made by the Lord’s holy people. Isaiah 56:1-8, Daniel 12:1, Revelation 7:9-14


Daniel 7:25 and Daniel 9:26-27 tells us how, in the last days, an invading leader will make a peace treaty with the holy people, but will break it and put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings. Obviously there will be sacrifices and offerings taking place, for him to stop them.

This is confirmed by the prophesies detailing how it will be during the period the righteous people of God will be living the Land before the Return of Jesus:
Psalms 51:18-19 Now Lord, show Your favour to Zion and rebuild Jerusalem. Then You will delight in the appointed sacrifices, young bulls will be offered in Your altar.

Jeremiah 17:24-26 Now, if you obey the Lord’s Commandments, then a ruler will again occupy David’s throne and Jerusalem will be inhabited forever. Then people will come bringing whole offerings, sacrifices as thank offerings to the Lord’s House.

Jeremiah 33:14-18 The days are coming when I shall bless Judah and Israel…….there will always be a Levitical Priest to burn the grain and other offerings every day.

Ezekiel 45:13-25 The details of and the dates for making all the sacrifices and offerings on the Altar of the Temple.

Zechariah 14:21…all who come to make sacrifice will use the holy pots in Jerusalem to boil the flesh of the sacrifice……

Isaiah 60:6-7 Livestock in droves will be in the Land to serve your needs, as acceptable offerings on My Altar and I will adorn My glorious Temple.


The context of these scriptures proves that all this will be for the last days’ period before the Return of Jesus. During the Millennium, there will be priest’s then. Revelation 20:6 and the nations must come annually to worship and make sacrifices. Zechariah 14:16-21

But we know there will be no Temple in Eternity. Revelation 21:22

I've done nothing but quote from Hebrews 10, keras. Is Hebrews 10 telling God what He wants?

You still haven't told us what "the first" in Hebrews 10:9 means.

I do recognize those times when you do espouse truth.

But this is not one of those times.

Still waiting for your answer. What does "the first" in Hebrews 10:9 mean?

 

[keras]

I've done nothing but quote from Hebrews 10, keras. Is Hebrews 10 telling God what He wants?

But I quote from many scriptures. Ones that say there WILL be sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
The only understanding that can be got from all these scriptures, is that the Sacrifice of Jesus applies just for this Church age.

Remember that God wanted sacrifices and offerings before and He is an unchanging God.

 

[jgr]

But I quote from many scriptures. Ones that say there WILL be sacrifices and offerings in a new Temple.
The only understanding that can be got from all these scriptures, is that the Sacrifice of Jesus applies just for this Church age.

Remember that God wanted sacrifices and offerings before and He is an unchanging God.

Still waiting for your answer.

What does "the first" in Hebrews 10:9 mean?

Let me suggest.

"The first" means the OT sacrifices and offerings referred to in the previous verses e.g.:

Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Agreed?

 

[keras]

Hebrews 10
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

...offered by the Law.....is the rider
Note too; that Paul refers to the reply of a scribe to Jesus, where he says; to keep the Commandments means far more that making offerings and sacrifices. Mark 12:33

There is nowhere that says sacrifices must not ever happen again.
Hosea 3:4-5 simply says; we will live for a long time without sacrifices, without the Temple accoutrements, [without a Temple] but after that, we will again turn in reverence to the Lord and He will heal us. Hosea 14:2-3

Psalms 50:7-15 is obviously an exhortation for us, in this Christian era.
We are to offer to God the sacrifice of our thanksgiving.....then He will come to our rescue when the time of trouble comes.

 

[jgr]

There is nowhere that says sacrifices must not ever happen again.

Sure there is.

They were taken away once for all.

That is the Holy Spirit's last and final declaration on the subject of OT sacrifices.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Christian Gedge]

Sure there is.

They were taken away once for all.

That is the Holy Spirit's last and final declaration on the subject of OT sacrifices.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Amen! Take note Keras - the Holy Spirit's last and final declaration on the subject!

 

[Timtofly]

Sure there is.

They were taken away once for all.

That is the Holy Spirit's last and final declaration on the subject of OT sacrifices.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Is your point sacrifices were once necessary or only a shadow? Once for all would also include the whole OT from Adam to Christ. The temple and sacrifices were not necessary before Moses, and Sinai. Technically they were not necessary between Sinai and the Cross.

"Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father."

"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children."

The bondage of the law only intensified sin. It was hardly necessary to remove sin, as every time one sinned, they had to repeat the process over and over again.

The point is that if a temple and sacrifices are brought back it still would not replace the Atonement of the Cross, nor negate how the Cross effected the OT Covenant. The Cross was not a replacement. The Cross was the eternal deal even during the bondage of mount Sinai.

Now those in the OT may disagree in how they viewed their bondage prior to the Cross. So perhaps your argument is with them, and not those who have the entire Bible to read and comprehend?

 

[keras]

Amen! Take note Keras - the Holy Spirit's last and final declaration on the subject!

Who I am discussing this issue with, are people who blatantly and knowingly ignore and dismiss the many prophesies which say there will be a new Temple and the Lord's people will make sacrifices and offerings in it.

The last and final Word on the Temple and the worshippers in it, is in Revelation 11:1 They are God's faithful people, Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, every righteous Christian.
Only after the Millennium, will the Temple be no more. Rev 21:22

But one thing I ask of the Lord, that I will see Him in His Temple..... Psalms 27:4

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That is not what I said, and you complain of being misspoken? I pointed out God has every right to do as He pleases. If there is such an economy, you seem to be more than likely against it.

How did I misspeak? Do you or do you not believe that animal sacrifices will be reinstated and performed at a physical temple in the future? You do believe that, right? If so, then I did not misspeak.

You claim that this is a future event or a past one.

What are you referring to? Ezekiel 40-48? I believe it's a conditional prophecy and have said so before several times (see Ezekiel 43:10-11).

Do you think the two Scriptures contradict each other.

No, of course not. What a ridiculous question to ask anyone here. No one here believes that any two scriptures contradict each other.

There was only one Atonement ever, if you go with Hebrews. You can force it or claim foreshadowing.

I claim foreshadowing because that is exactly what Hebrews 10 says. Have you ever read the book of Hebrews? I don't get the sense that you've ever read it.

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship

Why do these Scriptures give you the right to deny any future plans God has for the 1000 year reign found in Revelation 20?

Because the scriptures themselves tell us what the purpose of the animal sacrifices were for (foreshadowing Christ's sacrifice) and they tell us that God is not pleased with and does not desire animal sacrifices. The scripture makes it clear as to what God's plans are, so it has nothing to do with denying them. I accept them as scripture teaches in the book of Hebrews, which you apparently ignore.