New Creationist theory on how life spread out after the flood.

[bhsmte]

The word "Hell" might not be mentioned but the lake of fire certainly is. Dust is not an option unfortunately.

Revelation 20:14
The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

But I always thought, if the murderer claimed Jesus to be his savior, that he would be saved from the lake of fire? Sort of a, get out of jail free card.

 

[LastSeven]

If the murderer claims Jesus as his saviour, then he is no longer a murderer. Jesus washes us free of sin in the eyes of the Father. Completely forgiven.

 

[HitchSlap]

If the murderer claims Jesus as his saviour, then he is no longer a murderer. Jesus washes us free of sin in the eyes of the Father. Completely forgiven.

Well, that doesn't sound like justice.

 

[Subduction Zone]

If people actually read the bible and study a bit of history, they will discover hundreds of prophecies that have come true. Not obscure prophecies like Nostradamus, but plainly described ones. Do you know any humans who can accurately predict the future, hundreds and even thousands of years ahead?

That is not true. If that were the case there would be no doubt about Christianity.

For example the Daniel prophesy can only come true by fiddling with starting time, the length of a "year" and the date that Jesus was supposedly crucified. As a result there are several different interpretations of that prophesy, of course all of the different sects of Christianity argue that their prophesy is the correct one. Many of the "hundreds" of prophesies that I have seen is simply quote mining the Bible. In context the so called prophesy is not a prophesy, they are only picked because the verse has something that can be applied to a future event. That is not a prophesy.

And then there are the failed prophesies. The worst and funniest one to watch apologists try to defend is the Tyre prophesy.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hell is not mentioned in the Bible, I think it's a Catholic thing.

Are you thinking of Purgatory, bro? because Hell most certainly is mentioned in the Bible.

De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Pr 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Pr 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Pr 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Pr 15:11 ¶ Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Pr 15:24 ¶ The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Pr 27:20 ¶ Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Eze 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Am 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Hab 2:5 ¶ Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mr 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mr 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Lu 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, that doesn't sound like justice.

It is grace.

Justice = getting what you deserve.

Mercy = not getting what you deserve. (Hell)

Grace = getting what you don't deserve. (Heaven)

 

[nuttypiglet]

The word "Hell" might not be mentioned but the lake of fire certainly is. Dust is not an option unfortunately.

Revelation 20:14
The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

God calls the dead dust "from dust you were made, to dust you will return"
out of interest, why do you think it's the second death?

 

[AV1611VET]

God calls the dead dust "from dust you were made, to dust you will return"
out of interest, why do you think it's the second death?

We have a cute way of putting it:

Those who die without Christ are born once and die twice.
Those who die with Christ are born twice and die once.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 

[nuttypiglet]

Are you thinking of Purgatory, bro? because Hell most certainly is mentioned in the Bible.

De 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2Sa 22:6 The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Job 26:6 Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

Ps 9:17 The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ps 18:5 The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

Ps 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Ps 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Ps 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.

Ps 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Pr 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Pr 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Pr 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Pr 15:11 ¶ Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

Pr 15:24 ¶ The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Pr 27:20 ¶ Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isa 57:9 And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.

Eze 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Eze 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Eze 32:21 The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.

Eze 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Am 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Jon 2:2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.

Hab 2:5 ¶ Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Mt 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mt 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Mt 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Mt 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Mr 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mr 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mr 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Lu 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Ac 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Ac 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Re 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Look at the original hebrew texts for the old testament books. The KJV has never been authorised by anyone, and has had thousands of corrections in the last 300+years. The original hebrew scriptures use a word "Sheol", a place where both the good and wicked go. Translators had no idea what to call "Sheol" and words such as 'grave', 'pit', 'hell'. Sheol is simply a name used for the place where dead souls await resurrection. There is no place of eternal torment that the dead go to, according to original scripture, good and wicked end up in the same place.

 

[nuttypiglet]

Well, that doesn't sound like justice.

You are looking at it wrongly I think?
Jesus can see in your heart, if you mean it. He knows if you are trying to simply escape eternal death by just using words. The murderer proclaimed Jesus. You also have to remember that Jesus has the power over death. There is no such thing to him unless he decides it. So you could kill 100 Christians and they will still be saved and the murderer could repent and also be saved.
We have to realise that evil is at work all around us, all the time. If a murderer suddenly denounces that evil and turns to Jesus, he will celebrate and accept him gladly. This is another soul which can be resurrected to eternity. When recreated, we won't have the desire for evil anymore, there will be no evil thoughts. There will be no more lust, our breeding time will be over.

 

[AV1611VET]

Hell is not mentioned in the Bible,

Are you thinking of Purgatory, bro? because Hell most certainly is mentioned in the Bible.

Look at the original hebrew texts for the old testament books.

No.

You said 'in the Bible.'

Now that I've shown otherwise, you're changing it to 'original hebrew texts.'

For the record, Hell is mentioned in the Bible.

 

[CabVet]

Are you thinking of Purgatory, bro? because Hell most certainly is mentioned in the Bible.

Haha, thanks AV, I was just about to do that.

Also for the record:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[nuttypiglet]

I really don't see the relevance with this passage at all?
Let's say that there is no God for one minute, and we have a man in court for murder. He is found guilty and sentenced to death. He is given a lethal injection, dies and so this would certainly constitute as an everlasting punishment. He has no way out so his condition (death) is everlasting is it not? It's simply speaking about judgement day. The righteous are given eternal life, the unrighteous eternal death. It's not speaking about some place deep in the Earth where a red figure pokes people with a trident and burns them for an eternity with hot fire.

 

[Solomio]

I really don't see the relevance with this passage at all?
Let's say that there is no God for one minute, and we have a man in court for murder. He is found guilty and sentenced to death. He is given a lethal injection, dies and so this would certainly constitute as an everlasting punishment. He has no way out so his condition (death) is everlasting is it not? It's simply speaking about judgement day. The righteous are given eternal life, the unrighteous eternal death. It's not speaking about some place deep in the Earth where a red figure pokes people with a trident and burns them for an eternity with hot fire.

Is it justice you want or vengence? are you concerned what happens to the unrighteous? what difference does it make to you?

 

[LastSeven]

God calls the dead dust "from dust you were made, to dust you will return"
out of interest, why do you think it's the second death?

Yes, but dust is not a permanent option, is what I meant.

 

[LastSeven]

I really don't see the relevance with this passage at all?
Let's say that there is no God for one minute, and we have a man in court for murder. He is found guilty and sentenced to death. He is given a lethal injection, dies and so this would certainly constitute as an everlasting punishment. He has no way out so his condition (death) is everlasting is it not? It's simply speaking about judgement day. The righteous are given eternal life, the unrighteous eternal death. It's not speaking about some place deep in the Earth where a red figure pokes people with a trident and burns them for an eternity with hot fire.

Regardless of your definition of "everlasting punishment" or the meaning of "sheol", what do you think of the verses I quoted earlier.

Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Revelation 20:14
The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now before you get into the meaning of the lake of fire, consider the description of what the devil, the beast and the false prophet will suffer after being thrown into this same lake.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It sounds to me like the unbelievers will be condemned to an eternity in a place that sounds like the traditional definition of what people would call "hell". Don't you think?

 

[TheBear]

It sounds to me like the unbelievers will be condemned to an eternity in a place that sounds like the traditional definition of what people would call "hell". Don't you think?

Threats and coercion ~ the ultimate persuasion tools.

Nice....

 

[LastSeven]

How can I possibly threaten you with something I already know you don't believe? My post was to debate the references to hell in scripture, not to try to convince you of anything.

 

[AV1611VET]

Threats and coercion ~ the ultimate persuasion tools.

Yup ...

Overcrowding, depletion of earth's natural resources, global warming, Y2K, radon gas in the curtains, asbestos in the ceiling, lead paint on the walls, those sorts of things.

 

[TheBear]

How can I possibly threaten you with something I already know you don't believe? My post was to debate the references to hell in scripture, not to try to convince you of anything.

I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about your god. Didn't you just cite your god?