Nephilim-Which one?

[HumbleServant94]

According to sources I have found, there are two main theories. The first, which is the one I believe in, is the fallen angel theory. It basically says that these giants are hybrids of human and fallen angel. The second theory is the Seth family line theory. Which one do you believe?

Debates are allowed, but there are to be no insults. Try not to get heated in these debates.

 

[MrJim]

Ya know I don't know enough to know anything about this. I do remember an Ellen Gunderson Traylor novel about Noah that had Nephilim characters and they were almost "other-worldly" IIRC but that's about all my exposure to the subject. Be interested to hear what others have to say.

 

[HumbleServant94]

Ya know I don't know enough to know anything about this. I do remember an Ellen Gunderson Traylor novel about Noah that had Nephilim characters and they were almost "other-worldly" IIRC but that's about all my exposure to the subject. Be interested to hear what others have to say.

I think the verse is Genesis 6:9. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[70x7]

Still a subject I have been looking into, but everything that I have come across so far refers to them as the "hybrids" of spirit and man.

 

[Sketcher]

I believe in the Seth's family line theory. The fallen angel theory doesn't make sense. For that to be true, then you need to make certain assumptions.

1. That humans and angels can have sexual relations and produce viable offspring.

2. That there is a fallen angel, even a group of them, which is more evil or more crafty than Satan himself. Why didn't he think of this, since he's the leader of the rebellion against Heaven? Why take the form of a serpent when you can take the form of a man and steal Eve from Adam? You could even do that after he bit the fruit and take advantage of history's first marital dispute.

3. That God restricts some demons and demonic behaviors but not others. If you're God, then why are you doing that? What is the motivation of demons who tempt people, discourage people, possess people, cause disease, and start false religions that are brutal on their own practitioners to not take women after the flood?

4. That God's plan on exterminating the demonic hybrid super-race didn't even work. The Bible mentions that the Nephilim were there after the flood as well. Why and how did they exist? Did God miss a demon or two when rounding up the demonic perps and putting them in prison? Why didn't they take over the world again, since they were so big and bad?

 

[70x7]

I believe in the Seth's family line theory. The fallen angel theory doesn't make sense. For that to be true, then you need to make certain assumptions.

1. That humans and angels can have sexual relations and produce viable offspring.

But the concept of demons possesing men has been known. I was under the impression this is more along the lines of what they were talking about.

2. That there is a fallen angel, even a group of them, which is more evil or more crafty than Satan himself. Why didn't he think of this, since he's the leader of the rebellion against Heaven? Why take the form of a serpent when you can take the form of a man and steal Eve from Adam? You could even do that after he bit the fruit and take advantage of history's first marital dispute.

But Adam would have known there was no other man that God created. The choice of the serpent could be part of the sneakiness. God had created the serpent so it wouldnt be completely obvious at first.

3. That God restricts some demons and demonic behaviors but not others. If you're God, then why are you doing that? What is the motivation of demons who tempt people, discourage people, possess people, cause disease, and start false religions that are brutal on their own practitioners to not take women after the flood?

One suggestion is that satan attempted to pollute the bloodline which would eventually produce Jesus Christ as it was foretold 14 generations from Abraham a Saviour would be be born. These demons were bound as to never commit this act against man again. Satans original attempt at the destruction of man was in the garden of Eden. Of course because of that, a Deliverer of man would be needed. This was another attempt. The devil is not all knowing so he is adapting as things develop.

4. That God's plan on exterminating the demonic hybrid super-race didn't even work. The Bible mentions that the Nephilim were there after the flood as well. Why and how did they exist? Did God miss a demon or two when rounding up the demonic perps and putting them in prison? Why didn't they take over the world again, since they were so big and bad?

I am researching this as well and trying to learn so forgive me if I look into this for a better answer than what I have.

 

[HumbleServant94]

Hmm, that does seem to be a flaw. But if the Seth family theory is true it doesn't make sense that wicked people come from such a holy background.

My guess the reason more nephilim came around is that the demons still had intercourse with women. My guess is that these women were taken by force.

 

[70x7]

My guess is that these women were taken by force.

Maybe, but keep in mind that demons play on coniviance and temptation. It is also a very real idea that they could have been the "rico suaves" of thier time.

 

[LastTry0000]

Ya know I don\\\\\\\'t know enough to know anything about this. I do remember an Ellen Gunderson Traylor novel about Noah that had Nephilim characters and they were almost "other-worldly" IIRC but that\\\\\\\'s about all my exposure to the subject. Be interested to hear what others have to say.

Wow, that is just about exactly what I was going to say . Noah is such a fun and imaginative novel. It does take some artistic license on a few things, but is also thought provoking. I am interested to see what others have to say as well.

 

[Edial]

...

4. That God's plan on exterminating the demonic hybrid super-race didn't even work. The Bible mentions that the Nephilim were there after the flood as well. Why and how did they exist? Did God miss a demon or two when rounding up the demonic perps and putting them in prison? Why didn't they take over the world again, since they were so big and bad?

To cover the 4th point, since other points were addressed ...

The reason for the Flood was that man's thoughts were evil all the time.

GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

So the destruction apparently was due to man's behavior.

Although demons (in human form) apparently initiated the intercourse with women, this does not necessarily mean that the Nephilim "gene" was instanteneously eradicated from the human bloodline.

They could have beem "smaller", yet still Nephilims by birth.
Eventually they died out.

I really do not know of a Scriptural support for the Seth line.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[MrJim]

Wow, that is just about exactly what I was going to say . Noah is such a fun and imaginative novel. It does take some artistic license on a few things, but is also thought provoking. I am interested to see what others have to say as well.

Artistic license indeed~I'd read John & Abraham before Noah so I was surprised by how different it was; still it was an interesting read-maybe I have to dig it out of the attic and give it another look

 

[HumbleServant94]

Anybody else have any opinions?

 

[Sketcher]

But the concept of demons possesing men has been known. I was under the impression this is more along the lines of what they were talking about.

If it's possession, then it's not having sexual relations. Possessed men are still men, not demon-men. Their genes do not change. Jesus didn't restore a Nephilim at the Garasenes, he restored a possessed man. Possession is a different animal.

But Adam would have known there was no other man that God created. The choice of the serpent could be part of the sneakiness. God had created the serpent so it wouldnt be completely obvious at first.

So what? It's not as if Adam could do anything about any demon, let alone the devil, who is much more powerful than he was directly.

One suggestion is that satan attempted to pollute the bloodline which would eventually produce Jesus Christ as it was foretold 14 generations from Abraham a Saviour would be be born. These demons were bound as to never commit this act against man again. Satans original attempt at the destruction of man was in the garden of Eden. Of course because of that, a Deliverer of man would be needed. This was another attempt. The devil is not all knowing so he is adapting as things develop.

The problem with this is that Satan is not bound with them, at least as far as those who teach this suggest. They're trying to apply 2 Peter 2:4 to this situation, and they are doing so very narrowly - that all such demons are out of the game completely. But Satan's not going to be bound until Revelation 20:2 happens.

I am researching this as well and trying to learn so forgive me if I look into this for a better answer than what I have.

Right, you do that.

To cover the 4th point, since other points were addressed ...

The reason for the Flood was that man's thoughts were evil all the time.

GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth--men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air--for I am grieved that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

So the destruction apparently was due to man's behavior.

True enough, it doesn't say anything about demon-men polluting the bloodline of Christ.

Although demons (in human form) apparently initiated the intercourse with women, this does not necessarily mean that the Nephilim "gene" was instanteneously eradicated from the human bloodline.

Then the theory falls apart, because if the Christ can't have Nephilim blood in him, and Noah's family had such blood running in their veins, and Christ was descended from Noah's family, it becomes clear that this doesn't work. One might try to say that one of the wives, perhaps Ham's wife had it in her, but then we go back to the issue of God not really solving the problem with this flood which many who believe this theory assert was the reason for the flood in the first place. That, and there is no real evidence for it in the Bible. You can only speculate, and I find it very hard to believe that all the African races are tainted with the stuff (remember, Ham was their progenitor). To suggest that is getting into Mormon territory, and to deny Colossians 3:11 and everything positive the Old Testament says about Africans.

They could have beem "smaller", yet still Nephilims by birth.
Eventually they died out.

There is no Scriptural evidence that the new Nephilim were smaller or even smaller-time than the old ones.

I really do not know of a Scriptural support for the Seth line.

Support for the Seth's line theory comes from assuming that other beliefs based in Scripture are true. A number of them being:

- God is all-powerful and all-knowing, thus he is competent when solving a problem created by demons or men.

- The devil is the smartest, most evil, and most powerful foe of both God and man, and is active in making all sorts of trouble in the world today.

- Man is very sinful himself, and doesn't need demonic genes in order to fill the world with violence.

- Pairing up people who fear God with people who do not corrupts the people who fear God. We see this throughout Scripture, whether it is Israelite men marrying pagan women, or in Paul's admonishment not to be yoked with unbelievers.

- The holiness or unholiness of a person is not dependent on their racial pedigree, but on their own choices.

- In view of this, Christ died and rose for all men, of every tongue, tribe and nation, and in him, we are all brothers.

 

[Edial]

...


True enough, it doesn't say anything about demon-men polluting the bloodline of Christ.

...

Then the theory falls apart, because if the Christ can't have Nephilim blood in him, and Noah's family had such blood running in their veins, and Christ was descended from Noah's family, it becomes clear that this doesn't work. One might try to say that one of the wives, perhaps Ham's wife had it in her, but then we go back to the issue of God not really solving the problem with this flood which many who believe this theory assert was the reason for the flood in the first place.

Yet we should go back to the text in the previous post that the reason the Flood came to be is because the thought of men were evil all the time. Constant state of evil.
The pirpose of the Flood was not to eradicate evil, but apparently to curb it.

...That, and there is no real evidence for it in the Bible. You can only speculate, ...

Of course I cannot prove it.

However, this theory appears to support the text better, in my opinion.

... and I find it very hard to believe that all the African races are tainted with the stuff (remember, Ham was their progenitor). To suggest that is getting into Mormon territory, and to deny Colossians 3:11 and everything positive the Old Testament says about Africans.

Colossians says we are all equal in Christ.
I do not have a problem with that statement at all.

There is no Scriptural evidence that the new Nephilim were smaller or even smaller-time than the old ones.

Well. We do not know how large the original Nephilims were.
However, once the original imposition upon a shape and look of a certain race and nation is imposed upon, it usually gets back to it's original look in due time over generations.

So, in this text we see a reference to later Nephilims who came from descendants of Anak. They are presented as very big humans.
Yet since some generations passed from the original Nephilims, it would be reasonable to say that the original ones were bigger than the later ones.

NU 13:33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."

Support for the Seth's line theory comes from assuming that other beliefs based in Scripture are true. A number of them being:

- God is all-powerful and all-knowing, thus he is competent when solving a problem created by demons or men.

- The devil is the smartest, most evil, and most powerful foe of both God and man, and is active in making all sorts of trouble in the world today.

- Man is very sinful himself, and doesn't need demonic genes in order to fill the world with violence.

- Pairing up people who fear God with people who do not corrupts the people who fear God. We see this throughout Scripture, whether it is Israelite men marrying pagan women, or in Paul's admonishment not to be yoked with unbelievers.

- The holiness or unholiness of a person is not dependent on their racial pedigree, but on their own choices.

- In view of this, Christ died and rose for all men, of every tongue, tribe and nation, and in him, we are all brothers.

And in Him we indeed are all brothers,

Thanks,
Ed

 

[LivingLifeHisWay]

I do bieleve in the fallen angel theory. I read a fictional book: http://www.christianbook.com/Christ...d=102406&event=ESRCN&item_code=WW&view=covers

that was very very good. Indeed fictional but still good. Written by L.A. Marzulli. It's a series of 3 books. I highly recommend it.

 

[That_Guy_Josh]

I've done research on this and the more you research the deeper the rabbit hole really gets.

Genesis chapter 6 talks about the sons of God and the daughters of men mating. Supposedly the Hebrew for "God" in this passage is something like bnai el oheim which is used in the Old Testament multiple times for the word "Angel"

Supposedly these fallen angels came down to mate with the daughters of men to eventually destroy the bloodline that would lead to Jesus. Thus producing giants and some even believe that hybrids were created. This is where you get all the mythological creatures out of Egypt like the sphinx. Along with them coming down and mating with men they also supposedly taught the human race agriculture, warfare, and astrology. This is where some believe the Mayans came up with their ability to keep such an accurate calendar using the stars. This then leads us into my 2012 theory along with the dark rift and our earth travelling on a drunken axis. Ask me if you are interested... This stuff gets crazy.

A lot of what I just said stems from a book not included in the Bible and that book is the Book of Enoch. This is interesting in itself because it is an accredited book and even quoted in the bible we know today. This is done in the book of Jude.

Also these giants that were created is also where Goliath supposedly comes from.

The bible says that Noah was a righteous man and blameless among the people of his time. It's either righteous or blameless that is translated from Hebrew which actually means perfect in physical form or not of the polluted bloodline and this is why he was chosen.

It states that these Nephillim existed before and after the flood. This is interesting because Moses sent out spies to take a look at Canaan. The spies came back and reported to Moses that the people they saw there were of great size. They say "We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes and we looked the same to them" These people were descendant of Anak come from the Nephillim.

It is also theorized why Moses and Joshua were given orders to destroy entire villages and not leave a living thing behind in them after they were destroyed.

If you think that is crazy it is theorized that we have not seen the last of the Nephillim or fallen angels. That they will return and wreak havoc on this earth once again. These people that theorize this use Matthew 24:37 as their backing for this theory. If you ask me they are picking and choosing when it comes to this verse because it goes on to talk about drinking and being merry and not about these fallen angels. It is believed that the UFO sightings we see today are actually these fallen angels. I have even heard stuff about the government getting info from "the watchers” who believe are fallen angels on earth.

Now that I have stated all this stuff please don't believe me to be a nut or conspiracy theorist. It just so happens that I like to think outside the box when it comes to the bible. I actually struggled with this stuff for a while and believe me when I say it is very very interesting but you have to be careful to not get too tied up in this stuff because it takes your sights off the power and saving grace that Jesus demonstrates on the cross and we should be studying this instead.

 

[BobRyan]

According to sources I have found, there are two main theories. The first, which is the one I believe in, is the fallen angel theory. It basically says that these giants are hybrids of human and fallen angel. The second theory is the Seth family line theory. Which one do you believe?

Debates are allowed, but there are to be no insults. Try not to get heated in these debates.

R.C Sproul and I agree that it is the children of Seth marrying the children of Cain. "you are the light of the world... you are the salt of the earth but if the salt has lost it's savor..." OR as Abraham argued with God "if there be TEN righteous people - will you spare the city for TEN".

And as Christ said in Matt 22 regarding the biological created ability of Angels to form family units -- "they neither marry nor are given in marriage but they are like the ANGELS in that regard"

So -- giants were simply "people living before the flood" -- those people all lived to be over 900 years old AND who were very tall. The text does not say that just those who intermarry were tall.

We see them even after the flood in the case of King Og, and Goliath and others even after the flood - so Noah and his family were also Nephilim.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hmm, that does seem to be a flaw. But if the Seth family theory is true it doesn't make sense that wicked people come from such a holy background.

Cain Came from Adam and Eve -- so did Seth, so did Abel.

Not sure what your point is.

Also when the children of Israel inter-marry in the wilderness some are destroyed.

The unequally joined problem rises to plague the people of God all through the O.T.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Sketcher]

Yet we should go back to the text in the previous post that the reason the Flood came to be is because the thought of men were evil all the time. Constant state of evil.
The pirpose of the Flood was not to eradicate evil, but apparently to curb it.

Which again goes against the claim of the demon doctrine because that says God used the flood to annihilate the Nephilim.

Of course I cannot prove it.

However, this theory appears to support the text better, in my opinion

It also leads to racist conclusions about the Africans, which are not supported by Scripture, if you take it all the way. If you don't, then who was Ham's second wife who would have had his other sons besides Canaan? Scripture makes no provision for that.

Colossians says we are all equal in Christ.
I do not have a problem with that statement at all.

Of course.

Well. We do not know how large the original Nephilims were.
However, once the original imposition upon a shape and look of a certain race and nation is imposed upon, it usually gets back to it's original look in due time over generations.

So, in this text we see a reference to later Nephilims who came from descendants of Anak. They are presented as very big humans.
Yet since some generations passed from the original Nephilims, it would be reasonable to say that the original ones were bigger than the later ones.

NU 13:33 We saw the Nephilim there (the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim). We seemed like grasshoppers in our own eyes, and we looked the same to them."
I don't really see what difference this makes.

And in Him we indeed are all brothers,

Yes.

If you think that is crazy it is theorized that we have not seen the last of the Nephillim or fallen angels. That they will return and wreak havoc on this earth once again. These people that theorize this use Matthew 24:37 as their backing for this theory. If you ask me they are picking and choosing when it comes to this verse because it goes on to talk about drinking and being merry and not about these fallen angels. It is believed that the UFO sightings we see today are actually these fallen angels. I have even heard stuff about the government getting info from "the watchers” who believe are fallen angels on earth.

In addition, the tiny stick figure Greys they talk about sure don't sound like giant, muscular super-men to me.

 

[HumbleServant94]

In addition, the tiny stick figure Greys they talk about sure don't sound like giant, muscular super-men to me.

Well, demons could be able to transform themselves. According to sources, there are different races of aliens. One of the races are called Pleideians (correct my spelling if this is wrong). According to eye witnesses, their average height is maybe 8-9 feet tall. I got this from a website. If I'm wrong correct me. Also these aliens look very human.