Negative confession?

[ydouxist]

I believe the fig tree symbolized Israel. The tree had leaves but no fruit.
The fruit on a fig tree appears before the leaves.
It had an appearance of godliness from a distance.
I don't think it was the first time the tree had disappointed Him by not bearing any fruit.
IMHO

 

[SavedByGrace3]

Our friend didaskalos gives us a prime example of the fidecentric notion of confession Vreeland wishes to change (sorry to pick on you, dids ).

Of course, didaskalos would insist that "faith begins where the will of God is known", as F.F. Bosworth said. Nevertheless, examine the above in the light of the passage I quoted from Vreeland's essay and I think you'll see what I mean.

T7

Vree gets to the heart of the matter regarding why some mistranslate mk 11:22..

"...The greater theological context demands an objective genitive translation, rendering the translation, “Have faith in God.”..."

IOWs they do not like a God what would has faith, so instead of redefining the concept of faith into something that would fit this verse, they intentionally change the text for the sole purpose of making God into what they want (or their theology demands) that He be. They redefine God to fit their theology.

This sort of thing happens all the time with well intentioned translators. It actually lowers them from the role of translator to the role of interpreter. They add words that are not there, add punctuation in places that changes the meaning, add capitalization solely to reflect their doctrine rather than the raw translation, change the order of words so the text will make sense (to them that is, according to their understandings of theology and doctrine), on and on.
As I said, I do not think they are intentionally and consciously doing this to mislead. But mislead they do.

 

[Theophilus7]

Hello didaskalos,

Glad you managed to work through the paper. I'll make a quick response to your post. (We seem to have lost victoryword from the debate, at the moment. Hey, victoryword, where've you got to? )

Vree gets to the heart of the matter regarding why some mistranslate mk 11:22..

"...The greater theological context demands an objective genitive translation, rendering the translation, “Have faith in God.”..."

IOWs they do not like a God what would has faith, so instead of redefining the concept of faith into something that would fit this verse, they intentionally change the text for the sole purpose of making God into what they want (or their theology demands) that He be. They redefine God to fit their theology.

That may be a fair criticism. Then again, it may not. My response is this: the Greek text itself could be translated as a subjective or an objective genitive. Various renditions are possible: "faith in God" (objective genitive), "faith of God" (faith coming from God as his gift, not necessarily God's own faith), and even "God's faith" (God's own faith). Since all of these translations are possible, to select the correct translation we must appeal to other data. For example, 1) the fact that there are no other texts in scripture that speak of God's faith (without begging the question) and 2) the fact that a God-kind of faith is in conflict with other attributes of God (as traditionally defined) militates against selecting the subjective genitive implying God's own faith. Regarding 2), we must first be sufficiently convinced that the traditional understanding of such attributes as God's omniscience is wrong before we can dismiss this obstacle. Even if we get to that position, we must still contend with 1) the fact that there is no clear biblical evidence supporting a 'God-kind of faith' which we can have outside of Mark 11:22 - the very text we are arguing about.

 

[Theophilus7]

Even if we get to that position, we must still contend with 1) the fact that there is no clear biblical evidence supporting a 'God-kind of faith' which we can have outside of Mark 11:22 - the very text we are arguing about.

This applies to victoryword, too. Since he is an Open Theist, at least one of the main theological objections to God having faith drops away. I would be interested to hear his thoughts on why the Bible doesn't explicitly mention God's faith more often.

 

[mister_p]

The real issue with the faith guys is quite simple: Words we speak can make God perform "tricks" for us.

It is the faith preachers that seem to really benefit...

 

[Theophilus7]

The real issue with the faith guys is quite simple: Words we speak can make God perform "tricks" for us.

It is the faith preachers that seem to really benefit...

Out of interest, do you think the prayers we speak can make God perform "tricks" for us, or are you equally adverse to any form of human thought or action having any influence on the Almighty?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The real issue with the faith guys is quite simple: Words we speak can make God perform "tricks" for us.

It is the faith preachers that seem to really benefit...

Once again someone underestimates the work and power of God. They are not tricks... they are explosions of almightiness.
Raising the dead, healing the sick, geting your needs met, glorious salvations;
on and on... these are wonderful expressions of the love of God toward us.

And besides, tricks are for kids.

 

[Trish1947]

I dont mean to interrupt this debate, but if the Bible says, "Without faith, its impossible to please God".. that sounds like he can be affected by how I think, what I confess, what I pray, the way I pray it etc, I can cause God to do nothing for me if I refuse to believe, or he can reward me, because I chose to have faith, and believe in what He has said.. Isn't it up to us to do the pleasing part, by having faith? Doesn't he want us to have that ability inside of us, like He does? The problem is us, not God. He said all you have to do to please me is have faith.

 

[mister_p]

One of the Wesleys once said "God does nothing except by prayer." Now, I am not sure of the context, but I do believe that the God who Provides, who Heals and so on responds to prayer.

Kenneth Hagin wrote a little pamphlet called "How to write your own ticket with God." The title already says a heap. In essence it is four steps to get what you want.

To quote his "conversation" with Jesus, who told Hagin:

"If anybody, anywhere, will take these four steps or put these four principles into operation, he will always receive whatever he wants from Me or from God the Father"

Whatever we "want?" Gods will here is to do only as He is told.