Needing justification for morality

[Dave Ellis]

You are right. Back in that time, Jews and gentiles are different because the Jewish God is not recognized by gentiles. But, gentiles could be treated as Jews after a few generations lived in Jewish land.

Thank you for being honest in retracting your original claim. That's a rare thing to find on here sometimes.

You treat your slaves well and they might be loyal to you and even save your life. It is a beautiful system.

We're going to have to part ways again here.... There is nothing beautiful at all about that setup. There is nothing moral, or morally justified about owning another human being as property. It's one of the most immoral concepts out there.

And that's including the "good" slave owners, I'm not even getting into how you are allowed to treat your slaves.

The only thing bad about slavery is the bad human nature. Which is bad not only to the slavery, but is bad to everything else. Any system, moral or not, if we do it wrong, it would be ended as immoral.

Yes, but if you start off with an inherently immoral system such as slavery, it's impossible to do it and be moral.

It's akin to robbing a bank and being considered moral because you didn't shoot the teller. The overall act is still immoral, just not as immoral as it could have been. That's the absolute best you can get with "good" slavery.

 

[Huntun]

You have to kill people when your god commands in order to insure your kingdoms prosperity? Sounds like the theory behind human sacrifice.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I hope you accept Jesus as your lord and savior, otherwise you will go to hell.

Do you think your smarter than God.

No, but I just might be smarter than the people who invented the concepts of God and hell.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[ThinkForYourself]

A slave is a person. Recognize that first.

A slave is your property. You can "use" your property the way you like to. But do not forget he is also a person. And do not forget God says we should let our slaves go free after his six-year service.

With that understanding, I do think slavery is moral. However, I guess you already see, to abuse your slave (not treating him as a person) is not moral.

To have a slave is much harder than you think.

Dude, your religion has brainwashed you so thoroughly that you believe slavery is moral.

You should have a very very long think about that.

 

[juvenissun]

Dude, your religion has brainwashed you so thoroughly that you believe slavery is moral.

You should have a very very long think about that.

I think so because of reasoning, not because of the religion. Are you out of reason to argue? If not, what's wrong with what I said?

 

[juvenissun]

You have to kill people when your god commands in order to insure your kingdoms prosperity? Sounds like the theory behind human sacrifice.

You described a normal war among humans. It does not need God in the picture.

(That means your description is miles off your target. Hey, learn how to say what you mean precisely.)

 

[juvenissun]

Thank you for being honest in retracting your original claim. That's a rare thing to find on here sometimes.

We're going to have to part ways again here.... There is nothing beautiful at all about that setup. There is nothing moral, or morally justified about owning another human being as property. It's one of the most immoral concepts out there.

And that's including the "good" slave owners, I'm not even getting into how you are allowed to treat your slaves.



Yes, but if you start off with an inherently immoral system such as slavery, it's impossible to do it and be moral.

It's akin to robbing a bank and being considered moral because you didn't shoot the teller. The overall act is still immoral, just not as immoral as it could have been. That's the absolute best you can get with "good" slavery.

I do not see a single reason in your argument (is there any argument?) which supports that the slave system is bad, or I should not have slave as my personal property.

Slavery is bad only because the system is abused by the dark side of human nature. Both slaves and master can benefit and enjoy the system if they do it in a right way, as God describes 4000 years ago.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I think so because of reasoning, not because of the religion. Are you out of reason to argue? If not, what's wrong with what I said?

You are trying to reason ways to justify what the religion teaches.

I can guess you are probably not someone who would wish to live their lives as the personal property of another human. Having to serve them however they want, and failure to do so can get you severely beaten.

If you wouldn't ever wish that upon yourself, then you shouldn't want that for anyone else either. A moral person would never even consider being, or owning a slave, nor seriously try to justify the institution on moral grounds. Everything about it is simply wrong.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I do not see a single reason in your argument (is there any argument?) which supports that the slave system is bad, or I should not have slave as my personal property.

Slavery is bad only because the system is abused by the dark side of human nature. Both slaves and master can benefit and enjoy the system if they do it in a right way, as God describes 4000 years ago.

The master can benefit, sure, but the slave can not. The system is not being "abused" by the dark side of human nature, it's fully created by it.

As I alluded to in my most recent post, I don't imagine you'd ever want to find yourself in a position of slavery, and nor would I. That should tell you something about the attractiveness of being a slave.

I also would never even consider owning a slave, even if it were legal and I was being given one for free. If anything, I'd accept the gift just so I could liberate that person immediately.

As history has shown, freedom and the right to self determination are fundamental human rights and paramount to any healthy society. Slavery flies in the face of that, and violates those fundamental human rights.

 

[juvenissun]

You are trying to reason ways to justify what the religion teaches.

I can guess you are probably not someone who would wish to live their lives as the personal property of another human. Having to serve them however they want, and failure to do so can get you severely beaten.

If you wouldn't ever wish that upon yourself, then you shouldn't want that for anyone else either. A moral person would never even consider being, or owning a slave, nor seriously try to justify the institution on moral grounds. Everything about it is simply wrong.

I really do not mind to be in that situation, as long as my master treats me as a human. In a sense, there ARE some advantages of being such a slave. As a slave, you work for your living just like anyone else. Besides, you have a master to protect you. And you also have a person (your master) to take care of. To be a slave is much better than just being a 24-hr-7-day-week employee.

Besides, who said a slave has to do laborious work? I can even write some computer codes for my master.

Slavery is a very good system.

 

[hownow]

Slavery is a very good system.

I can't tell if you're a troll, a "poe" or just a Republican.

 

[juvenissun]

The master can benefit, sure, but the slave can not. The system is not being "abused" by the dark side of human nature, it's fully created by it.

As I alluded to in my most recent post, I don't imagine you'd ever want to find yourself in a position of slavery, and nor would I. That should tell you something about the attractiveness of being a slave.

I also would never even consider owning a slave, even if it were legal and I was being given one for free. If anything, I'd accept the gift just so I could liberate that person immediately.

As history has shown, freedom and the right to self determination are fundamental human rights and paramount to any healthy society. Slavery flies in the face of that, and violates those fundamental human rights.

A good slave saved the life of his master instead of running away. This is not an uncommon theme in many movies and novels. Because it happened everywhere in history.

I like to have a slave very much. But I don't think I can afford it (pay health insurance for him?). I believe the king of Saudi has many slaves. When you see them, they dressed very nicely and walked admirably after the king. It might not be a bad tenured job.

 

[juvenissun]

I can't tell if you're a troll, a "poe" or just a Republican.

Ignorant.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Do you have a point?

What I mean is, is this some sort of argument you are making?

If so, what is your argument? Are you arguing against Divine Command Theory? I cannot really tell.

I'm just asking a question... you gave a hypothetical scenario to make a point. I tweaked the hypothetical a bit to see if your point still stands. It's a test of your point if you will...
Now, does it still stand?

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is absurd to say that intention/motivation is independent of the end consequences of a person's actions.

Not at all!!

The consequences of a thing can be absolutely tragic and catastrophic, while the intentions were pure and good natured. The consequence can be unkown to you. We can only anticipate consequences insofar as our knowledge informs us about it. Therefor, you can perfectly do something with the best intentions and ending up with quite dramatic results...

 

[Eudaimonist]

Besides, who said a slave has to do laborious work? I can even write some computer codes for my master.

That wouldn't be your choice, would it?

Imagine that you are given laborious work with no option to quit and find employment elsewhere, when you'd rather write computer code for a living. Imagine that you are offered a job doing what you really want, except you have to regretfully decline the opportunity because you are a slave and have no right to make that decision for yourself. Is it such a good system now?

To be a slave is to give up your humanity.

I like to have a slave very much.

You're back to morally bankrupt again.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Chany]

I don't know about every specific European country, but America already decided on slavery 150 years ago. And we were definitely behind the times when compared to some Europe an countries. The discussion's been over.

What's next, women's rights?

 

[Dave Ellis]

I really do not mind to be in that situation, as long as my master treats me as a human. In a sense, there ARE some advantages of being such a slave. As a slave, you work for your living just like anyone else. Besides, you have a master to protect you. And you also have a person (your master) to take care of. To be a slave is much better than just being a 24-hr-7-day-week employee.

Besides, who said a slave has to do laborious work? I can even write some computer codes for my master.

Slavery is a very good system.

You can't be serious.... Are you actually for real, or are you trolling?

 

[juvenissun]

That wouldn't be your choice, would it?

Imagine that you are given laborious work with no option to quit and find employment elsewhere, when you'd rather write computer code for a living. Imagine that you are offered a job doing what you really want, except you have to regretfully decline the opportunity because you are a slave and have no right to make that decision for yourself. Is it such a good system now?

eudaimonia,

Mark

Granted. Not everyone want to be a slave even the system is good. Yes, if my master told me to plow, I have to plow even I like to write. To obey my master is my job description. If I don't like it and if I can afford to, then I will try to get out of the slavery at the 7th year.

Hey, do not be hypocritical. Today, many many "free person" are working exactly the same way. How many people "like to" flip burgers in a restaurant? The only difference is that they probably only do that 8 hours a day. But at the same time, they have to pay for their own food and rent. And if they are sick or injured, their employer may start to consider to fire them. The employer don't care if one would starve after the layoff. I think the situation would be much worse than what a slave is.

To have a slave is a burden. If my slave is sick, I am responsible to get him well. If he is disabled, I may still need to keep him until an acceptable arrangement is made for him. Don't forget that a slave is also a human. We let our cows and horses work for us. But we also take care of them and do not abuse them.

Slavery is a beautiful system.

 

[juvenissun]

You can't be serious.... Are you actually for real, or are you trolling?

Get lost.