Need Help Finding Something About BLM

Chesterton

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So what is Chesterton's criticism of BLM if it incorporates Marxist ideals into their rehtoric?
I guess you missed it earlier when I called Marxism a "hellish nightmare". I'll elaborate. BLM, as well as SJW's in general, are doing exactly what Marx said to do, and what Marxists always do: class struggle. Divide everyone into two groups - good guys and bad guys. The good guys don the valued crown of "Oppressed", which promptly enables them to become oppressors as soon as they get enough strength/power. What follows soon after are the gulags, the slave labor camps, the brainwashing, the torture rooms, the summary executions, mass executions and genocide for the "bad guys". U.S.S.R., China, Cambodia, Cuba, North Korea...happens every time.
 
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KCfromNC

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The impression I get from most folks who are hammering on the "Marxism connection" is just that: "Marxism". 'nuff said.

I believe for those working to negate the message of BLM it is sufficient to attach the label of "Marxism" onto the movement to turn off a large portion of Right-leaning individuals.

Or possibly finding labels like that provide a rationalization for a predetermined conclusion. As in, they know what the answer should be, so finding a scary sounding label is enough to get them there.
 
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JustSomeBloke

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That right there suggests you dont know much about what Marxism is or the history of the Soviet Union. Marx does not support centralized control, a specific school of thought brought the idea to prominence, but it was shown to have limitations. Marxism is not synonymous with central planning.
If you want to be pedantic, I'll call it 'Applied Marxism'.

Applied Marxism in Soviet Russia

I am pretty sure you are projecting too much onto the protests. Riots tend to establish when there is a breakdown in the systems that establish the status quo and when people are put in a position where their voices are no longer heard.
Are you saying the rioting, arson, looting, shooting, and destruction is explained by people feeling that their voices were not heard? Many would claim that BLM consisted only of people making their voices heard through peaceful protest. Who were all the people lobbing bricks through windows, stealing goods, and burning places down?

This literally just sounds like Jordan Peterson parroting. Marxism isn't about the right people leading, but a framework of viewing class struggle and economic distribution. Just like Capitalism. It's a framework with many schools of thought.
Can you give an example of governance modelled on a Marxist framework that has been an unequivocal success? If Marxism doesn't have any means of improving society, people might wonder what the point of it is.

The issue I see with your position is that Marxism and capitalism are not synonymous with Market freedoms. Marxist socialism advocates for collective ownership of a means of production. This can range from a co-OP to a sole proprietorship, to a central economy, ect. Same with Capitalism. Free markets are just about what level of interference does a government place on it. Shortages happen is noth Marxist and capitalist economies based around total supply. Most stories of bare shelves in the Soviet Union were from resources being regulated for war efforts.

Here in the UK, there is no law that prohibits the setting up of co-operatives. And one of the grocery shops I regularly use is exactly that. Every time I visit they scan my card and I get a little back because I'm a member of the co-operative. Funnily enough it's called Co-Op. Why would anyone want to legislate, govern, or operate a framework that forces the dissolution of private ownership into co-operatives or collectivist organisations? People are already free to run collectivist and co-operative organisations. Is that not the case in America?

As long as the banks can extend loans and their is a healthy exploitable work base capitalism is fine as well.
Banks are at least partly dependent on human greed, envy, and the associated materialism. If you took that away, and encouraged people to save up to buy only what they need, a lot of capitalism, credit cards, and loans would disappear.
 
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zippy2006

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Or possibly finding labels like that provide a rationalization for a predetermined conclusion. As in, they know what the answer should be, so finding a scary sounding label is enough to get them there.

You often find the intellectual blinders in the exact reverse. Various progressive groups walk like Marxists, swim like Marxists, and quack like Marxists, but vehemently deny they are Marxists because of that "scary sounding label." Knee-jerk reactions to the label span the spectrum; @istodolez's isn't any more robust than a conservative's. But your angle is also quite strange: "It's just a word, it's just a label that is associated with fear." Gee, maybe we ought to ask ourselves why it is associated with fear? After all, there are plenty of words that are associated with fear for good reason. "Nah, let's just adopt the ideology and ditch the name to avoid these absurdly obvious questions!"
 
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KCfromNC

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But your angle is also quite strange: "It's just a word, it's just a label that is associated with fear." Gee, maybe we ought to ask ourselves why it is associated with fear?
From what I can see, it is mostly right-wing propaganda which tries to label anything more moderate than the GOP platform as SOCIALISM!
 
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Dryskale

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I guess you missed it earlier when I called Marxism a "hellish nightmare".
No, I didnt miss it. So far your criticisms are more along then lines of Marxist = bad and I want to drill down to what specifically is bad and how it applies to BLM.


I'll elaborate. BLM, as well as SJW's in general, are doing exactly what Marx said to do,
Can you actually show me where in the Marxistframework it says to do any of what you are about to mention?

and what Marxists always do: class struggle.
Considering Marxism is the framework of looking at the struggles of classes, sure.
Divide everyone into two groups - good guys and bad guys.
Nah, that's more dualism that exists in most Western Philosophy, including Christianity. Marx critiqued capitalism in showing that the system requires exploitation to exist. Marx doesnt specifically go into critical Race Theory.

The good guys don the valued crown of "Oppressed", which promptly enables them to become oppressors as soon as they get enough strength/power. What follows soon after are the gulags, the slave labor camps, the brainwashing, the torture rooms, the summary executions, mass executions and genocide for the "bad guys". U.S.S.R., China, Cambodia, Cuba, North Korea...happens every time.
Nah what you are seeing here is a massive misunderstanding of Marxism and replacing Leninism with Marxism. plus Cuba is no where near the USSR, North Korea, or China. Plus there are plenty of Capitalist and theocratic countries where there have been equally large atrocities. The issue I believe you really have is over Authoritarianism.
 
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All Englands Skies

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This might not be well known to people who don't have a specific interest in liberation theology and the intersection between Christianity and Marxism, but I think it is useful to keep in mind that pretty major Catholic figures like Dorothy Day and Jacques Maritain actually collaborated with Saul Alinsky, of all people. Because they were all interested in community building.

Look, I do get concerns over Marxism. I am effectively leaving the left because I can no longer overlook the toxic ideology, but I think it's still best to work with people to the degree that it's possible. Racial justice is still important--Black Lives Matter may be Marxist, but that doesn't mean they're always wrong. I think we can listen to them, incorporate whatever they say that seems to be true, and ignore or actively oppose the rest.

Father Jerzy Popiełuszko, a Polish Catholic priest, pro-trade union, Christian/Catholic-Democratic Syndicalist, Solidarity member, but an anti-Marxist, Anti-Communist who was eventually murdered by the Communist powers.
 
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Silmarien

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I suppose if you can ignore the fact that when the kind of centralised control advocated by Marxists was tried in the Soviet Union, it was an abject failure, then there's not much to be fazed about. And I'm not sure how you interpret the recent rioting, looting, arson, shooting, and destruction of monuments, but I think many would suspect that it is the behaviour of people trying to destabilise a nation prior to pushing a Marxist agenda in some kind of socialist revolution.

I do not believe that it is the Marxists actually doing the looting.

Look, I'm an ex-leftist. I have friends who are socialists and fullblown Marxists... I know what they are, and I know what they're not. What they are is absolutely exhausting, and in the grips of a totalitarian ideology that turns everything it touches into ash. But that doesn't mean that they are trying to incite violence, or destabilize the nation, or usher in an actual socialist revolution. They aren't. They would like it if the world became socialist, but they do not really have a roadmap to get anywhere except hopefully better social programs. Right now they are mostly just trying to infiltrate the Democratic Party.

Seriously, the far left in its current state couldn't lead a socialist revolution if it actually tried to. Honestly, I think they'd get bored and go home three days into it.

If you speak to a Marxist, they will probably inform you that the only reason Marxism has failed everywhere it's been tried, is that the wrong people were in charge. It never seems to occur to them that as soon as the right people are given power, they suddenly mutate into the wrong people. And then it's too late to change your mind, because you can't vote them out.

I have absolutely heard this line, lol.

Still, I think most are trying to figure out how to get to their stateless utopia while skipping the whole "totalitarian state power" phase.
 
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Dryskale

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If you want to be pedantic, I'll call it 'Applied Marxism'.

Applied Marxism in Soviet Russia
I see it's mostly just a critique of the Soviet Union and not on Marxism propper. The Soviet Union is not the be all end all of Marxism. Class criticism in general is based on a Marxist framework.


Are you saying the rioting, arson, looting, shooting, and destruction is explained by people feeling that their voices were not heard?
I say the conditions that lead to riots are the results of oppression.
Many would claim that BLM consisted only of people making their voices heard through peaceful protest.
I can speak for "Many People", what I can say is that the protests are for the most part peaceful, but there is always a risk for breakdown when tensions are high.

Who were all the people lobbing bricks through windows, stealing goods, and burning places down?
I have seen pictures and videos of bystanders, random people in black block, police, and protestors all taking advantage of mob break down and getting in on it. The important thing to realize is rhat this isn't all spontaneous. Tensions Hve been rising for years.


Can you give an example of governance modelled on a Marxist framework that has been an unequivocal success?
Asking for a Marxist government is similar to asking about a Randian Government. The frameworks Rent specifically about how to run a government, but instead criticism of systems in place within a government or economic structure. Lenin and Trotsky took formed a government with the influence of Marxist economics and other ideals from the enlightenment that several other non monarchist revolutionaries used.
[QuoteIf Marxism doesn't have any means of improving society, people might wonder what the point of it is.[/quote] Many of the European nations took crites from Marx and applied it to their governance. Germany, France, The Nordic Countries, Spain, etc all have had successes with incorporating ideals from Marx. Germany and Den Mark especially have succeeded in no longer needing a hard minimum wage because of the encouragement and backed unions that give the working people a larger day in their working conditions and bargaining power.

Here in the UK, there is no law that prohibits the setting up of co-operatives. And one of the grocery shops I regularly use is exactly that. Every time I visit they scan my card and I get a little back because I'm a member of the co-operative. Funnily enough it's called Co-Op. Why would anyone want to legislate, govern, or operate a framework that forces the dissolution of private ownership into co-operatives or collectivist organisations? People are already free to run collectivist and co-operative organisations. Is that not the case in America?
I'm not arguing the need for the government to break up sole ownership of capital at this time. My views are close aligned with Social Democrats.


Banks are at least partly dependent on human greed, envy, and the associated materialism. If you took that away, and encouraged people to save up to buy only what they need, a lot of capitalism, credit cards, and loans would disappear.
That is the curse of a material based vaputalist ecconomy. My personal views is that banking should definately be highly regulated to avoid predatory behavior.
 
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All Englands Skies

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The woman is not just associated with, she is one of the FOUNDERS OF.

When a Marxist declares their Ideology what is it, that makes you not believe them? :scratch:

A lot of modern "Marxists" are barely even Marxist in any real sense, its just like a buzz-word now.

What most of these progressives and modern quasi-Socialists are in fact, is part of the "New Left" movement, that did blend some Marxist ideology, but mixed it with a lot of other stuff, some movements within the new left even openly reject Marxism and any form of class struggle, While proper Marxism is part of the "Old Left" spectrum, also Marxist ideology hasn't always sat comfortably with Traditional Anarchism, sometimes Marxism and Anarchism have been hostile towards one another and "denounced" each other.

Being a Syndicalist, I myself would be considered within the "Old Left" spectrum, though I dislike the whole Left/Right spectrum and find it outdated. That being said I completely reject Marxism, Marxist-Leninism and Communistic fantasy, even if I do share some of their ideals.
 
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JIMINZ

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One can be something but still not make those things which they are associated with be that same thing.

Look at the folks who run Hobby Lobby. They are self-professed Christians with a strong Christian sensibility yet they still economically support atheist China (they buy a LOT of stuff from them), they still lie (charged by the NY State Atty General for deceptive advertising, all in service to Mammon.

People can be something but their organizations aren't necessarily that too!


:doh:- - - :oldthumbsup:
 
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JustSomeBloke

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I see it's mostly just a critique of the Soviet Union and not on Marxism propper. The Soviet Union is not the be all end all of Marxism. Class criticism in general is based on a Marxist framework.


I say the conditions that lead to riots are the results of oppression.
I can speak for "Many People", what I can say is that the protests are for the most part peaceful, but there is always a risk for breakdown when tensions are high.

I have seen pictures and videos of bystanders, random people in black block, police, and protestors all taking advantage of mob break down and getting in on it. The important thing to realize is rhat this isn't all spontaneous. Tensions Hve been rising for years.


Asking for a Marxist government is similar to asking about a Randian Government. The frameworks Rent specifically about how to run a government, but instead criticism of systems in place within a government or economic structure. Lenin and Trotsky took formed a government with the influence of Marxist economics and other ideals from the enlightenment that several other non monarchist revolutionaries used.
If Marxism doesn't have any means of improving society, people might wonder what the point of it is.
Many of the European nations took crites from Marx and applied it to their governance. Germany, France, The Nordic Countries, Spain, etc all have had successes with incorporating ideals from Marx. Germany and Den Mark especially have succeeded in no longer needing a hard minimum wage because of the encouragement and backed unions that give the working people a larger day in their working conditions and bargaining power.

I'm not arguing the need for the government to break up sole ownership of capital at this time. My views are close aligned with Social Democrats.


That is the curse of a material based vaputalist ecconomy. My personal views is that banking should definately be highly regulated to avoid predatory behavior.

It sounds rather like you want to disown all the horrors of regimes that took their guiding principles from Marxism, while at the same time claiming the successes of governments in Western Europe that have implemented worker's rights legislation. I don't know why you would do that. I don't think Marxists can claim to have invented the concept of worker's rights.
 
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JustSomeBloke

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I do not believe that it is the Marxists actually doing the looting.

Look, I'm an ex-leftist. I have friends who are socialists and fullblown Marxists... I know what they are, and I know what they're not. What they are is absolutely exhausting, and in the grips of a totalitarian ideology that turns everything it touches into ash. But that doesn't mean that they are trying to incite violence, or destabilize the nation, or usher in an actual socialist revolution. They aren't. They would like it if the world became socialist, but they do not really have a roadmap to get anywhere except hopefully better social programs. Right now they are mostly just trying to infiltrate the Democratic Party.

Seriously, the far left in its current state couldn't lead a socialist revolution if it actually tried to. Honestly, I think they'd get bored and go home three days into it.



I have absolutely heard this line, lol.

Still, I think most are trying to figure out how to get to their stateless utopia while skipping the whole "totalitarian state power" phase.
karlmarx1-2x.jpg
 
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Chesterton

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just for my clarification, was this tied to the previous hypothetical or is this a stand alone comment? The opening "And" has me confused.
It was in reply to her comment that "racial justice is still important".
 
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Chesterton

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This is the thinking behind a lot of folks' support for Confederate Statues isn't it? The whole "The Civil War was about 'states rights' not slavery per se!" crowd.
No.
 
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All Englands Skies

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It sounds rather like you want to disown all the horrors of regimes that took their guiding principles from Marxism, while at the same time claiming the successes of governments in Western Europe that have implemented worker's rights legislation. I don't know why you would do that. I don't think Marxists can claim to have invented the concept of worker's rights.

Some sort of "workers rights" or proto-workers rights were in the pipeline for centuries, though only really gained ground in the 1800's.

But even then, the frame work was mainly done by the Syndicalists and Proto-Syndicalists before Marxism hijacked everything.
 
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istodolez

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But it's not the Right calling them Marxists. They're calling themselves Marxists! At this point, BLM and other openly Marxist organizations have made the opening salvo and declared that they are in fact what they are, so it seems that trying to legitimize the word "Marxism" would be a better tactic here than to pretend it isn't BLM controlling the narrative here in the first place.

I must disagree. The people themselves may claim to be "Marxists" but the organization isn't Marxist per se. That difference may seem overly pendantic and subtle but it is key to this debate.

But I generally agree that a better tactic would be to eliminate the overt negativity to the term, but it has such a "history" among American Conservatives that at this point it will only be leveraged as an attack.

The easier route is to simply point out that the organization qua BLM is not, itself, expressly Marxist.
 
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Chesterton

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Can you actually show me where in the Marxistframework it says to do any of what you are about to mention?
I don't know what the Marxistframework is but you can find it in Chapter IV of The Communist Manifesto.
Considering Marxism is the framework of looking at the struggles of classes, sure.
If you knew that why'd you ask where to find it?
Nah, that's more dualism that exists in most Western Philosophy, including Christianity. Marx critiqued capitalism in showing that the system requires exploitation to exist. Marx doesnt specifically go into critical Race Theory.
There are really three periods. Marx initially wanted to get rid of religion in Europe. Then he thunk up his wacky unworkable economic theory as a way to overturn society, and that was called Marxism. It is now cultural, which leaves every aspect of cultural open to attack. Which by the way, is why we hear the words "social construct" so much. If anything was merely constructed, it can be deconstructed or destroyed.
Nah what you are seeing here is a massive misunderstanding of Marxism and replacing Leninism with Marxism. plus Cuba is no where near the USSR, North Korea, or China. Plus there are plenty of Capitalist and theocratic countries where there have been equally large atrocities. The issue I believe you really have is over Authoritarianism.
No misunderstanding here.
 
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istodolez

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You often find the intellectual blinders in the exact reverse. Various progressive groups walk like Marxists, swim like Marxists, and quack like Marxists, but vehemently deny they are Marxists because of that "scary sounding label."

But is one NOT allowed to label themselves as they see fit? I am an atheist but that does not mean I can't also find value in some Christian concepts. I am a nihilist but I can also get up in the morning and do my job.

Knee-jerk reactions to the label span the spectrum; @istodolez's isn't any more robust than a conservative's.

Well, apart from the fact that I'm actually trying to pay attention to the details of the case at hand. Other than that...

But your angle is also quite strange: "It's just a word, it's just a label that is associated with fear." Gee, maybe we ought to ask ourselves why it is associated with fear?

...are you going to now replay for us the entire history of how Marxism was utilized to ultimately wind up with a Stalinist Dictatorship? You may as well tell us how Christianity wound up being the home of people who murder doctors or tell people at funerals their loved ones are going to hell or who tortured countless Jews in the Pogroms.

Ideologies are just that: ideologies. They can be hijacked and warped and extrapolated to extremes. If you can find something within the actual BLM STATEMENTS that is troubling, lay those out rather than simply tossing "Marxism" at it like it's some sort of ipso facto "EEEEEEVIL".
 
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