Need a little help =)...

[armothe]

Adam is the only human to become a sinner by sinning while all others are born (Christ being the only exception).
By an act Adam acquired an evil nature, while all members of his family are born with one.

This seems to be a popular belief among Christians. I'm not sure how its been proven that people are born with sin.

-A

 

[armothe]

So A,
Well tribal people know the difference between right and wrong.... but they do not know the law... only their law... therefore are they judged by their law or just go to hell? thanx for your input

Tribal peoples were never given the law; neither was Abraham, or Noah or Enoch. Yet they were each found righteous due to their faith and actions/works.
They were most likely judged based on their faith and works. Although an argument could be made they were judged based upon Christ's minisering to them whilst He was in "the grave".

-A

 

[Knarf188]

Thanx a and tracey,
a, but in romans it says that the law is written on their hearts... what do you think about that scripture? and i believe that you have to believe in the one true God not some idol or bird that they assign God too.... God did say that he was a jealous God...

Tracey I just don't get it... i understand unlimited atonement... but to think that there are going to be people who kannot except God is hard to believe
I think that everyone has a choice... as to whether or not accept Christ... I do know God already knows who will be saved but to kall them the 'elect' is just kind of weird.. could u explain a little more?
Your bRother in Christ
Frank

 

[Jeffery]

armothe, are you a sinner?

 

[duster1az]

This seems to be a popular belief among Christians. I'm not sure how its been proven that people are born with sin.

-A

Scriptures for your consideration.

(Psalm 51:5; Jeremiah 17:5, 9; John 3:6: Rom. 1:18-8:13; 1 Cor. 7:14; Eph. 2:3; Gal 5:17-21)

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[duster1az]

Thanx a and tracey,
a, but in romans it says that the law is written on their hearts... what do you think about that scripture? and i believe that you have to believe in the one true God not some idol or bird that they assign God too.... God did say that he was a jealous God...

Tracey I just don't get it... i understand unlimited atonement... but to think that there are going to be people who kannot except God is hard to believe
I think that everyone has a choice... as to whether or not accept Christ... I do know God already knows who will be saved but to kall them the 'elect' is just kind of weird.. could u explain a little more?
Your bRother in Christ
Frank

I'm unaware of what I could say to make election acceptable to you. It's hard for man who has adopted the idea that we are independent from God to receive any truth relating to His sovereign right over His creation.

The principle behind divne election seem evident in all God's creation. That a person is born in one age of privilege rather than another surely isn't just a matter of chance. The divine covenants are promises of benefits to favored groups of people and record is made of "elect angles" (1 Tim. 5:21), but it's God's right to do with His creatures as He wishes. That some of His creation serve one purpose and some another is a matter of divine choice and human resentment surfaces only when it is shown that some are more favored than others respecting destiny.

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[Indigo]

I just want to clarify something about the tribal native Americans which is very misunderstood:

They only worshiped nature because it is part of God's great creation and we could not live without it or the earth so we must show respect. Much like Christians pray before a meal to thank God for giving them food. But what woud be so wrong with thanking the cow for giving it's life and let's not forget vegetables are living things also. Would God really disaprove if we show respect directly to his other creations?

They absolutely believed in God and called him the Great Spirit so this proves that God reaches all through our Spirit. And, yes my previous point was if you truly follow your own laws (without lying to yourself), you will be saved.

I haven't read the passages you mentioned but I will.

God bless!

 

[armothe]

armothe, are you a sinner?

I am now. I wasn't when I was 3yrs old. But alas, I'm not going to hijack this thread and turn it into a debate on Calvinism.

-A

 

[armothe]

Scriptures for your consideration.
(Psalm 51:5; Jeremiah 17:5, 9; John 3:6: Rom. 1:18-8:13; 1 Cor. 7:14; Eph. 2:3; Gal 5:17-21)

Right. Been over these thousands of times with other people. I just don't see it.
As per my previous post - I'm not going to turn this into a debate.
I'm here to offer my opinion to Knarf.

-A

 

[snerkel]

Hey everyone...
Seasons Greetings to all of you.... I am at a kind of troublesome thing here and was wondering if you guys could help... How where people in the Old Testament saved(Verses would be greatly appreciated)... I feel as though it was a belief that we are a sinner and that God is righteous ... I am probably wrong... but if you look at Gen 15:3 it kind of states it with Abraham... and if it was believing in this is it possible for others to be saved in this way... eg. Tribal People... thanx tons.. take kare and God Bless
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank

They were justified by faith. Romans 4:1-8

 

[Knarf188]

I just want to clarify something about the tribal native Americans which is very misunderstood:

They only worshiped nature because it is part of God's great creation and we could not live without it or the earth so we must show respect. Much like Christians pray before a meal to thank God for giving them food. But what woud be so wrong with thanking the cow for giving it's life and let's not forget vegetables are living things also. Would God really disaprove if we show respect directly to his other creations?

They absolutely believed in God and called him the Great Spirit so this proves that God reaches all through our Spirit. And, yes my previous point was if you truly follow your own laws (without lying to yourself), you will be saved.

I haven't read the passages you mentioned but I will.

God bless!

Hey Indigo... but in Exodus God said that he would consume them with fire for Aaron and others were going to worship a golden calf... there are several missionaries who notice that Tribal people worship dolls and spirits... that is not the God of Israel... I think you were justified by faith but only when you worshiped the God of Israel... Also if you read Romans 1 it says they make idols and worship the birds and such.. and God 'gave them over to their iniquities'....
And also was God with the people when he sent them out from the tower of Babel.... for is that how people got to all the corners of the world....
What do you think...
Your brother in Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

I'm unaware of what I could say to make election acceptable to you. It's hard for man who has adopted the idea that we are independent from God to receive any truth relating to His sovereign right over His creation.

The principle behind divne election seem evident in all God's creation. That a person is born in one age of privilege rather than another surely isn't just a matter of chance. The divine covenants are promises of benefits to favored groups of people and record is made of "elect angles" (1 Tim. 5:21), but it's God's right to do with His creatures as He wishes. That some of His creation serve one purpose and some another is a matter of divine choice and human resentment surfaces only when it is shown that some are more favored than others respecting destiny.

In Christ,
Tracey

I still don't get it =)... Like to say that my 4 year old sister is 'destined' to be in eternal flame is just messed up... like that is her goal .... Think about (which I'm sure you have =)... God would knit some people in the womb only to suffer and go to hell.... WRONG.... there is NO WAY!!! haha... I'm sorry I don't mean to be rude but that does not seem like a Loving God... He desires us all to be saved.... Hence God giving everyone like 130 years to repent during Noah's time... if that were the case he would have just flooded everyone except the original people saved... to think that some are 'elected' is unfair... maybe im being ignorant.... well take kare and God Bless...
Your brother in Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

Tribal peoples were never given the law; neither was Abraham, or Noah or Enoch. Yet they were each found righteous due to their faith and actions/works.
They were most likely judged based on their faith and works. Although an argument could be made they were judged based upon Christ's minisering to them whilst He was in "the grave".

-A

So they were justified by faith and works? But Paul states clearly that Abraham was justified by faith alone not righteous deeds... Romans 4 I think...
I think maybe it was obedience/repentance/faith... Like Saul was disobedient and lost favor in God's eyes...
Also in Romans it states that the Law is written on their hearts... so does that mean they already have the law and can be judged by it?
And A what scripture do you have on the children/handicapped people or is it just logic... i really like your explanation... and well with out scripture my argument would just be empty air to my friends... for I agree with it =)...
Your brother in Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

They were justified by faith. Romans 4:1-8

Hi snerkel,
Where did you get your name? just curious?
Anyways , Justified by faith in the God of Israel or in some of God... like by this I mean the God that we see in Nature? like in Romans 1? and if it is in the God of Israel do you think that Tribal People do not have a chance?
Thanks
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank

 

[snerkel]

Hey everyone thanx for your answers....
Indigo I understand... but maybe you could read Romans 1 and tell me how you think it relates to tribal people =).. it totally neglects everything... and then look at Romans 3 about how no one seeks righteousness ... therefore only be God's grace are we forgiven...

Romans 1? Could you be more specific?

The same goes with the OT... I feel as though God's grace was sufficient in the past too... if they 'tried' to keep the commandment....

Grace comes from the Father through Christ.

Which commandment? There were/are 613.

And by the way guys... will we automatically inherit salvation ... or like John says in Revelations that we will have to wait till the second coming... and what about Children/and Mentally handicapped people...
thankyou so much for your help...take kare and God Bless...Your Brother in Christ,Frank =)

Not to nitpick, but could you provide Scripture references for your comments? Thanks.

 

[snerkel]

So A, Well tribal people know the difference between right and wrong.... but they do not know the law... only their law... therefore are they judged by their law or just go to hell?

thanx for your input
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank

Romans 2:1-16​

1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. ​

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. ​

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? ​

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? ​

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ​

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: ​

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: ​

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, ​

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; ​

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: ​

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. ​

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;​

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. ​

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: ​

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ​

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ​

 

[armothe]

So they were justified by faith and works? But Paul states clearly that Abraham was justified by faith alone not righteous deeds... Romans 4 I think...

But what is faith without works? Not only did Abraham have faith, but he proved it by willingly offering up his only son to be sacrificed. Faith without works is dead. Faith-based works is a lot different than righteous deeds. A faith-based work entails a full trust in God, whereas a righteous deed would consist of dropping a quarter in a homeless person's can. The latter is not a bad thing to do, but that will not redeem you in God's eyes.

Also in Romans it states that the Law is written on their hearts... so does that mean they already have the law and can be judged by it?

What is law? Christ said the law is summed up into one word - love. The Mosaic law drew out specifics because the people wanted an easy-to-follow well-defined guideline. Paul states in Romans that several peoples had their own moral guidelines (perhaps not written down on paper) they followed.

And A what scripture do you have on the children/handicapped people or is it just logic... i really like your explanation... and well with out scripture my argument would just be empty air to my friends... for I agree with it =)...

Christ always equated little children with innocence and naivity.

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

We all know that the kingdom of heaven belongs only to those who appear sinless before God. Thus, it seems safe to conclude that little children appear sinless before God. And as adults we need to become like them (sinless) to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven as well.

-A

 

[snerkel]

Hi Tracey =)...
Thankyou for answering my question, I think? haha... can you sum that up better... I know he loves them who seek him ... but like you stated Rom3... no one seeks him... its like a circle haha =)...
So, therefore, it seems as to though you are saying that the Tribal people are without hope... can you please elaborate .. thankyou so much...
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank

Which Tribal people? Old Testament? They were under a different coventant, were they not?

 

[snerkel]

Hi snerkel,
Where did you get your name? just curious?

A name generator.

Anyways , Justified by faith in the God of Israel or in some of God... like by this I mean the God that we see in Nature? like in Romans 1? and if it is in the God of Israel do you think that Tribal People do not have a chance?
Thanks
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank

Justified by faith in God (not nature) and the promises He given to them under the Old Covenant.

I've seen reference to the OT and to Native Americans when others have used the term "Tribal People". I believe that term needs to be clarified.

 

[Knarf188]

Romans 1? Could you be more specific?


Grace comes from the Father through Christ.

Which commandment? There were/are 613.


Not to nitpick, but could you provide Scripture references for your comments? Thanks.

Man Snerkely you are going to make me break out the Bible =)..
Romans 1
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
The Commandment I was talking about was the Law... but now that I think of it Abraham wouldnt have had it =/....
In Christ,
Frank