Need a little help =)...

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Knarf188

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Hey everyone...
Seasons Greetings to all of you.... I am at a kind of troublesome thing here and was wondering if you guys could help... How where people in the Old Testament saved(Verses would be greatly appreciated)... I feel as though it was a belief that we are a sinner and that God is righteous ... I am probably wrong... but if you look at Gen 15:3 it kind of states it with Abraham... and if it was believing in this is it possible for others to be saved in this way... eg. Tribal People... thanx tons.. take kare and God Bless
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank
 

duster1az

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Salvation is the work of God and its basis, in any administration, is the death of Christ. The requirement for salvation is faith in God, although the content of faith changes because what may be known of Christ and His death grows in the progress of revelation.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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kvukonich

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knarf188,
I think that you are asking a great question...
I personally believe that the OT does not address the question of salvation in the terms that the NT uses (that is, salvation in the OT is not the sins forgiven, Jesus in me, going to heaven doctine we find in the NT). In the OT, salvation is presented as physical deliverance from oppression. A trace through God's covenant program will illustrate what I mean.

God chose the nation of Israel to be a nation whereby all nations would be blessed (Gen 12:1-3). This would be accomplished through Israel's obedience to God's law. Nations would see how Israel acted much differently morally and politically than every other nation and that their God blessed them more than any nation, and as a result, this would draw nations to want to be just like them. God gave Israel his covenant law for them to obey (Ex 20). If they obeyed, they would experience physical blessings galore (Lev 26). If they did not obey, they would experience physical curses all the more (Lev 26). If they repented of their sins, they would experience physical salvation or deliverance from their oppressors. Israel's history shows many times over that they did not obey the law (Jer 31:31-34). In fact, they broke God's covenant! Therefore, Israel rejected God's promises of physical blessings in the earth by their rejection of His covenant. God is not obligated any longer to fulfill his promise of physical blessings because the covenant is broken. (Hosea even speaks of God as `divorced` from Israel!)

So what is God to do now so that Israel and other nations can be saved? He makes a new covenant, NOT like the covenant before that Israel broke (Jer 31:31-34) This new covenant will be kept because God will make His law a part of his people (see NT concept of `born again`). Furthermore, this covenant is not like the previous covenant in that no physical blessings or curses are mentioned! In this new covenant people will obey God and the nations will be blessed and be drawn to the new Israel as a result.

Christ inaugerated the new covenant in the NT (Lk 22:20). We are shown in the NT that a saved person, or a "new covenant" person, will have tribulation on earth (Jn 16:33) but will be blessed with eternity in the new heavens and earth (i.e. Heaven - Rev 21-22). Christians are promised a much different earthly physical existence than Israel, eh?

So then, how was Israel `saved` in the OT? If you are referring to the idea of going to heaven, I do not think that the OT develops this idea very much. I think it alludes to it in serveral areas, but not explicitly like the NT. (if you want specific passages and explanations, let me know). Israel's covenant with God in the OT was very physically oriented; that is, what will happen when I am alive, on earth. I think that they thought that the type of physical existence that they had on earth would follow them into eternity. So, if an Israelite obeyed God on earth and experienced the covenant blessings, then their afterlife would be that of blessings (i.e. Gen 15:15, 1 Kin 2:6-9). Personally, I believe that those who obeyed God's covenant law will be in heaven, just as those who live a life of obedience to Christ will be in heaven (...you will know them by their works -see Rev 22).
 
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Knarf188

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Kvukonich,
Hi, thankyou for replying to me? So you are suggesting it was based on obedience is salvation in the OT? I guess I could see that, but we must remember that the 10 Commandments were not brought made for us to obey...for no one can truely obey... but in Romans it states that they were made to show man's sinful nature, and therefore the need of a God, and a gift from God... his grace...
I am thinking about writing a paper...giving all the glory to God... on how people were saved... for I feel as though there has to be someway for tribal people, who have never heard the name of Jesus to be saved... therefore I was going to resort back to the OT... for it says also in Romans 'How can they be saved by the law if they have never heard the law'... but then again it says the law is written on their heart... and that in Romans 3 ... no man seeketh after righteousness...
I just want there to be a sliver of hope for others in foreign countries for their to be salvation ya know? I believe our GOD TO BE SO LOVING... and to give EVERYONE an oppurtunity to inherit eternal salvation... Also what about Children/and Handicapped people... in Matthew Jesus says he blesses the little children...
I'm just so lost because Jesus says he is the way the truth and the light... But how can people know that if they never heard the Gospel... I know that is were Matthew 28 comes in but I do feel as though our God being so loving would give them a shot...
And possibly that Jesus 'personified' God's grace... and therefore those who accept God's grace, in the fact that they need God's grace our forgiven and saved... I think the same thing happened to Abraham in Gen 15:3... he believed that he was a sinner and that he needed God.. and he was saved... you can see my dilemma....
thanks for your help...
take kare and God bless...
your brother in Christ,
Frank
 
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armothe

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Knarf188 said:
Im sorry armothe but that doesnt make alot of sense for after christ salvation came through grace... and if God is the same wouldnt it be Grace in the past also... i just need scripture and maybe a clearer rephrase... thanks though =)...
Unfortunately those who lived prior to Christ were dead. They didn't have the chance to receive Christ as their Savior whilst on earth. Some believe Christ preached the gospel in Hades for the three days he was "in the grave". Thus, it is quite possible those in the grave had a choice to believe in Christ after Christ Himself preached the gospel to them. Unfortunately there are not many verses which speak on this.

The biggest statement involving judgement based on works comes from Revelation.

Revelation 20:11-15
And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them; and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works; and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works; and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death; and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.

-A
 
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Indigo

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Knarff188,

I'm sorry I don't know the Bible enough to quote it but I think God told us that if we truly follow our beliefs, we will be saved. Most tribes do worship God and I feel it is wrong to call Him our God or their god since we all believe there is only one God, so why wouldn't it be the same? I think the whole idea of being saved only if we know Jesus has been misunderstood. I believe Jesus came to show us what we were capable of and we must live our life always trying to be like him. But we also ALL have the spirit within us which is connected to Jesus and God and therefore we ALL have the capability and the means to become like Jesus. If tribals ask questions to God, He will answer through their spirit.

Does this answer you question?
 
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Knarf188

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Hey everyone thanx for your answers....
Indigo I understand... but maybe you could read Romans 1 and tell me how you think it relates to tribal people =).. it totally neglects everything... and then look at Romans 3 about how no one seeks righteousness ... therefore only be God's grace are we forgiven...
The same goes with the OT... I feel as though God's grace was sufficient in the past too... if they 'tried' to keep the commandment....
And by the way guys... will we automatically inherit salvation ... or like John says in Revelations that we will have to wait till the second coming...
and what about Children/and Mentally handicapped people...
thankyou so much for your help...
take kare and God Bless...
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank =)
 
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armothe

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HeatherJay said:
Believers in the OT were saved through their adherrance to the Law handed down God (see Leviticus for examples). Atonement for sins was possible through sacrifices offered up to God in the proper way.
Except that not all people living during the OT were given the law.

And not to mention that Paul states in the NT that the law saved noone.

Romans 3:20 - wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
Galatians 3:11 - and that in law no one is declared righteous with God, is evident, because `The righteous by faith shall live;'

-A
 
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armothe

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Knarf188 said:
and what about Children/and Mentally handicapped people...
Sin seperates us from God. If we have sin in our lives we cannot possibly approach God - let alone enter into Heaven upon mortal death.

For those who believe in Christ's sacrifice, sin has been washed away in the sight of God. We are now able to approach God and enter into His kingdom.

It takes a certain amount of cognitive ability to understand good of Christ's sacrifice - and that it is meant to overcome the evils of sin.

Children and mentally handicapped people do not have this cognitive ability to understand right from wrong. Thus, if they do not know the difference between right and wrong - they can do no right or wrong. They are naive. Thus, they are sinless because they have committed no sin.

Sinless people are not seperated from God.

-A
 
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duster1az

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armothe said:
Sin seperates us from God. If we have sin in our lives we cannot possibly approach God - let alone enter into Heaven upon mortal death.

For those who believe in Christ's sacrifice, sin has been washed away in the sight of God. We are now able to approach God and enter into His kingdom.

It takes a certain amount of cognitive ability to understand good of Christ's sacrifice - and that it is meant to overcome the evils of sin.

Children and mentally handicapped people do not have this cognitive ability to understand right from wrong. Thus, if they do not know the difference between right and wrong - they can do no right or wrong. They are naive. Thus, they are sinless because they have committed no sin.

Sinless people are not seperated from God.

-A
Adam is the only human to become a sinner by sinning while all others are born (Christ being the only exception).

When Adam committed his first sin he experienced a conversion downward. He became degenerate and depraved and developed within himself a fallen nature that is opposed to God and prone to evil. He became a totally different being than God created. Therefore, a distinction must be recognized between sin as an evil act and sin as an evil nature. By an act Adam acquired an evil nature, while all members of his family are born with one.

In regard to those of a "tribal" nature, Scripture states, "I love those who love me; and those who diligently seek me will find me" (Pro. 8:17). However, we must recognize Scripture also states, "There is none righteous, not even one; there is none who understands, there is none who seeks for God;..." (Rom. 3:10-11). Again, as in my OP, salvation is totally a work of God and will surely be the experience of those destined for it.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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Knarf188

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Hi Tracey =)...
Thankyou for answering my question, I think? haha... can you sum that up better... I know he loves them who seek him ... but like you stated Rom3... no one seeks him... its like a circle haha =)...
So, therefore, it seems as to though you are saying that the Tribal people are without hope... can you please elaborate .. thankyou so much...
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank
 
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duster1az

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Knarf188 said:
Hi Tracey =)...
Thankyou for answering my question, I think? haha... can you sum that up better... I know he loves them who seek him ... but like you stated Rom3... no one seeks him... its like a circle haha =)...
So, therefore, it seems as to though you are saying that the Tribal people are without hope... can you please elaborate .. thankyou so much...
Your Brother in Christ,
Frank
I wouldn't assume to say "tribals" are without hope.

What I'm saying is their salvation will be a work of God. If they're to be saved it will be the result of God providing sufficient revelation of His provision for man's fallen nature and resultant sinful behavior. Man inherently recognizes his shortfall when contemplating his position before the creator of the universe. Doing so he either seeks after righteousness or ignores what is evident. The book of Romans reveals man's choice, left unto himself (Rom. 1:18-23; 3:9-18).

Something we must understand and accept is that God is under no obligation to save all, and it's only by grace He chooses to save any.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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Knarf188

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Im sorry Tracey, but that is harsh... to think of a God who came down to only die for an elect few... everyone has a choice... and God desires all to be in the kingdom... to think that he doesn't kind of does not show his love... and no im not dogging you, i just dont see the logic... any thoughts ... take kare and God Bless
Your brother in Christ,
Frank
 
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duster1az

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Knarf188 said:
Im sorry Tracey, but that is harsh... to think of a God who came down to only die for an elect few... everyone has a choice... and God desires all to be in the kingdom... to think that he doesn't kind of does not show his love... and no im not dogging you, i just dont see the logic... any thoughts ... take kare and God Bless
Your brother in Christ,
Frank
I believe in unlimited atonement, or the fact Christ's death is sufficient to save all, but left to one's self man will not choose Christ. Scripture speaks of an effecacious call that definitely leads to salvation (Rom. 1:1, 6, 7; 8:28, 30: 9:11 and so on...), but also of a general call that doesn't (John 12:32). Even though men are drawn to the cross not all are saved.

It is essential to the plan of God that all the elect be saved (Rom. 8:28-30) and in keeping with that purpose the Father effecaciously draws some to Christ (John 6:44). Therefore, Christians should continue to proclaim the gospel to all men because we don't know who the elect are.

In Christ,
Tracey
 
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