Need a little help =)...

[Knarf188]

Romans 2:1-16
​

12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;​

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. ​

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: ​

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another ​

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. ​

What are you trying to say here, please =)...
In Christ, Frank​

 

[Knarf188]

But what is faith without works? Not only did Abraham have faith, but he proved it by willingly offering up his only son to be sacrificed. Faith without works is dead. Faith-based works is a lot different than righteous deeds. A faith-based work entails a full trust in God, whereas a righteous deed would consist of dropping a quarter in a homeless person's can. The latter is not a bad thing to do, but that will not redeem you in God's eyes.

What is law? Christ said the law is summed up into one word - love. The Mosaic law drew out specifics because the people wanted an easy-to-follow well-defined guideline. Paul states in Romans that several peoples had their own moral guidelines (perhaps not written down on paper) they followed.

Christ always equated little children with innocence and naivity.

Matthew 18:3
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14
Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

We all know that the kingdom of heaven belongs only to those who appear sinless before God. Thus, it seems safe to conclude that little children appear sinless before God. And as adults we need to become like them (sinless) to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven as well.

-A

I thought we were only saved by faith though a... only by God's grace...
what about the theif on the cross, he never did anything righteous... but ask for forgiveness... or do you mean that true faith will derive good works?

So the law on peoples hearts was just lovE? thats it? that is a wide range for one to derive laws from and therefore probably not as precise.... so you are saying they were judged by their loving deeds?

thanx for the scripture

take kare and God bless
in Christ,
Frank

 

[Knarf188]

Which Tribal people? Old Testament? They were under a different coventant, were they not?

I don't know of any tribal people in the OT... was not everyone sent from the tower of Babel into all the different areas of the Earth....

By Tribal people I mean people today in the Bush of South America or Asia.... that have never heard of the name of Jesus....

Thanx for your help...
In Christ,
Frank

 

[armothe]

I thought we were only saved by faith though a... only by God's grace... what about the theif on the cross, he never did anything righteous... but ask for forgiveness... or do you mean that true faith will derive good works?

What the thief did was first to believe that Christ was the Messiah. Then to ask Christ to remember him when Christ was to ascend into His kingdom. This involved faith, belief and action.

So the law on peoples hearts was just lovE? thats it? that is a wide range for one to derive laws from and therefore probably not as precise.... so you are saying they were judged by their loving deeds?

Christ said the entire mosaic law was fulfilled in one word - love.
Another thing which is evident throughout the bible is that: more laws = more sin. Thus; less laws and guidelines = less sin - why? because of naiveity.
If one is naive to what is good and bad - how can they be held accountable for what they have done?

Yes, they were judged by the guidelines they themselves had set in accordance as to how they understood the difference between love and sin.

-A

 

[Knarf188]

What the thief did was first to believe that Christ was the Messiah. Then to ask Christ to remember him when Christ was to ascend into His kingdom. This involved faith, belief and action.


Christ said the entire mosaic law was fulfilled in one word - love.
Another thing which is evident throughout the bible is that: more laws = more sin. Thus; less laws and guidelines = less sin - why? because of naiveity.
If one is naive to what is good and bad - how can they be held accountable for what they have done?

Yes, they were judged by the guidelines they themselves had set in accordance as to how they understood the difference between love and sin.

-A

Hi a,
thanx for all your help... but what about the law written on their hearts... that has to account for something... how do you refute that one???
In Christ,
Frank

 

[armothe]

Hi a,
thanx for all your help... but what about the law written on their hearts... that has to account for something... how do you refute that one???
In Christ,

Love is the law written on their hearts. One of the first things you learn as you grow up is the difference between good (love) and evil (sin). That's as basic as it gets. You don't need a huge list of guidelines written down on stone tablets or oil skins to identify what is right verses what is wrong.

This is what is meant by "written law" (ie written down on paper or oral recitings for all to read & hear) verses "heart-written" (ie the inner knowledge of good and evil).

-A

 

[Knarf188]

But A, the difference between right and wrong is written on our hearts... 'love'.... and man will never be able to be obedient to it always, or perfect... therefore they will die because they do not follow what their heart desires....
any thoughts?
In Christ,
Frank

 

[armothe]

But A, the difference between right and wrong is written on our hearts... 'love'.... and man will never be able to be obedient to it always, or perfect... therefore they will die because they do not follow what their heart desires....

I think you are taking the phrase "written on our hearts" the wrong way.

This statement was made due to the pending obsoletion of the Jewish law - which was written down on paper. Paul is stating its not the Jewish law, or written laws that matter - its the unseen nature of good and evil within us that truly matters.

And let me clarify that good and evil aren't written on our hearts from birth. If that were so then each person would have the exact same values and prinicples. Rather it's a learned behavior which usually is completed by adulthood.

-A

 

[Knarf188]

i c a....
so do you feel as though Tribal people will be saved a?
In Christ,
Frank

 

[reformedfan]

God is the same (Mal.3:6) ergo, must have been faith in Christ that justified people, just like today. (see Gen 15:6)

Scriptural proof? Belief in Gen. 3:15, looking ahead in faith to the Seed that would one day come, Gen 22, God would provide the sacrifice, etc.
Leviticus: all the sacrifices had to point ahead to the Peace offering from God
look at chapters dealing w/ rules for sacrifice & know Hebrews 10$ is true. Either God was wasting their time, or He was directing them to do that which would look ahead to Christ. Read Hebrews, it was written to show how the OT system has been fulfilled in Christ.
Happy studying!
reformedfan

 

[Knarf188]

God is the same (Mal.3:6) ergo, must have been faith in Christ that justified people, just like today. (see Gen 15:6)

Scriptural proof? Belief in Gen. 3:15, looking ahead in faith to the Seed that would one day come, Gen 22, God would provide the sacrifice, etc.
Leviticus: all the sacrifices had to point ahead to the Peace offering from God
look at chapters dealing w/ rules for sacrifice & know Hebrews 10$ is true. Either God was wasting their time, or He was directing them to do that which would look ahead to Christ. Read Hebrews, it was written to show how the OT system has been fulfilled in Christ.
Happy studying!
reformedfan

Dude thanx for your input... I actually just read this great article from anthony... he states that the mosasic law was fullfilled with Christ... I kant really tell you all about it because it was way over my head... plus i think salvation in the past was different from today...ergo =)... it was different haha... feel like im in the matrix
but if you look at Saul and Some Israelites... they actually lost God's favor and i guess his salvation through direct disobedience... but he did give them a chance... The difference though between Saul and David was that David lived for God and was sorrowful for his deeds while Saul was not... So it was through faith and Obedience that the old people were saved... as is today ... Christ said I did not come to nullify/break the law but to fullfill the law... i think they are two different covenants... but God's grace remains the same... i hope this makes sense... im still trying to make sense of it all too... what do you think
thankyou , take kare and God Bless
In Christ,
Frank

 

[armothe]

i c a....
so do you feel as though Tribal people will be saved a?
In Christ,
Frank

Pre-Parousia tribal people were judged based on their faith and actions.
Modern day tribal people? The bible seems pretty clear that in order to inherit Heaven, one must appear sinless before God.

Another issue is that we can't assume that tribal people haven't heard the gospel. The world is full of hundreds of thousands of missionaries worldwide.
So really, this question is based upon a "what if" scenerio - which may have no grounds to stand on.

-A

 

[Knarf188]

Pre-Parousia tribal people were judged based on their faith and actions.
Modern day tribal people? The bible seems pretty clear that in order to inherit Heaven, one must appear sinless before God.

Another issue is that we can't assume that tribal people haven't heard the gospel. The world is full of hundreds of thousands of missionaries worldwide.
So really, this question is based upon a "what if" scenerio - which may have no grounds to stand on.

-A

hey a,
while the bible does seem to point in that direction that we need to appear sinless before God, which is kind of depressing... for people who never will have the chance to hear it...
there are 3000 to 4000 + Groups of people (with different dialects) who have not heard the good news... nor have the even heard the name of Jesus... so there will people who will never hear the Good news...
In Christ,
Frank

 

[reformedfan]

Saul's worst sin wasn't His repeated disobedience, it was his refusal to bow his knee to Christ. Trying to kill David, the one who Christ was to come from, was his way of trying to snuff out the chance of the promised Seed coming. If it was faith + works that saved people in any age, then God wouldn't be immutable, unchanging like He says He is in His word, Mal 3:6. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, as Abraham & all the OT sheep knew.

 

[Knarf188]

Saul's worst sin wasn't His repeated disobedience, it was his refusal to bow his knee to Christ. Trying to kill David, the one who Christ was to come from, was his way of trying to snuff out the chance of the promised Seed coming. If it was faith + works that saved people in any age, then God wouldn't be immutable, unchanging like He says He is in His word, Mal 3:6. Salvation has always been by grace through faith, as Abraham & all the OT sheep knew.

Hey Reformedfan...
how is it going? I thought sauls disobedience came from not waiting for the prophet to come to make the proper sacrifice... thats how i took it to be... could you show me where it says that he intentionally tried to kill David to snuff out the seed as opposed to just going crazy... im still trying to work my way through Genesis so i havent had much time to get to 1st / 2nd samuel... but thanks
take kare and God Bless
in Christ,
Frank

 

[reformedfan]

Saul had the kingdom ripped away from him for disobeying God's command to kill everyone & everything as judgement for how the Amalekites had ambushed Israel as they came out of Egypt. They were to completely destroy the town & in doing so, 'dedicate' it all to the Lord.
His disobedience to God's clear command here in 1 Sam 15 pales in comparison to his repeated attempts to kill David. Everyone sins, but Saul's sin was unique. David was the one God promised Christ would come from, in 2 Sam 7. Saul's continued attempts on David's life, man that guy just wasted his final years as king chasing that kid around trying to kill him. Why? Saul had the army, the power, the crown. It wasn't cuz he feared David as a political rival, it was because he hated Christ so much he tried to kill His ancestor. Would Saul have known that about David? Saul didn't care too much about Spiritual things, or he could have asked around & found out about the covenant, and God's promise to Judah, etc.
Good question, ya Berean!

 

[reformedfan]

This is important, but I forgot it y'day, ooops1
There were 2 covenants, the covenant of works, which Adam was under & lead to death for us all, as Adam was the Federal representative of the human race. the terms were, 'don't eat that tree, or dying you shall die' is how the Hebrew in Gen 2:17 is. The other, was the covenant of grace which everyoone has been under since Gen 3:15.
Adam blew the terms of the cov. of works, God didn't leave them dead in their sin, He came to them in the cool of the day, offered an opportunity for them to confess their guilt (Gen. 3:11, Gen 3:13), promised Christ, the Seed of the woman who would one day crush the head of Satan (Gen 3:15, 'crush' is a better translation of the Hebrew there than 'bruise') & taught them how to make a blood sacrifice which He provided, covering their sin, Gen. 3:21. All this ushered in the covenant of grace, (quoting A.W. Pink now) "which is an everlasting covenant, Is 55:3, a covenant of peace, Ezek 34:25,37:26. It secures reconciliation with God, for Adam's transgression produced enmity, but by Christ the enmity has been removed, Eph2:16 and therefore He is denominated the "Prince of Peace" Is 9:6. It is ccalled the "covenant of life" Mal 2:15in contrast to the covenant of works which issued in death, because life is the principal thing pledged in it..."etc. When the Bible calls Christ "the last Adam",Ro 5, 1 Co 15, among the many things this refers to, His status as a new Federal Head of His people is referred to. He is the neew covenant, and the mediator of it.
Back to the Garden of Eden.
Adam responds in faith, believing God isn't going to wipe out the entire population at that point in history because of their sin, which he demonstrates by naming his nameless to this point wife Eve, 'the mother of all living.' Gen 3:20
Eve demonstrates her belief in this new covenant of grace/peace/life/ etc. by naming her firstborn Cain, a name which means "I got Him!" wrongly thinking she was the momma of Christ. Little bit mistaken, butcha gotta admire her zeal!
All the subsequent covenants, the Noahic, the Abrahamic, the Davidic further flesh out this central covenant of grace. If you can imagine the covenant of Christ being like the bridge that fills the gap between the unregenerate & God, all the 'little' covenants along the way are like road signs, pointing out the path one should take to get to Christ. They also served to be reminders to God's people where eternal life comes from, which served to help the elect of the OT keep their eyes on the covenant, or Christ. No wonder Mary, during her miraculous pregnancy, praised God for His keeping the covenant, Luke 1:46-55.
Hope that helps!
The covenant is enormously interesting & eternally important, well worth the time to study it deeply. This Pink book I'm reading is called "The Divine Covenants", and it is so excellent! Not one I can whip through, too chock fulla huge ideas with enormous ramifications.