Near perfect existence

[ToddNotTodd]

How does reality explain anything.

Is not reality that which is?

If after a lightning storm you find a tree smoking and split, do you assume a god was angry at that particular tree and threw a lightning bolt at it, or do you use the reality of electricity following the path of least resistance coupled with the fact that the moisture inside the tree is a better conductor than the air around it to determine that the tree was an unlucky participant in the laws of physics.

Reality explains it all...

 

[anonymous person]

If after a lightning storm you find a tree smoking and split, do you assume a god was angry at that particular tree and threw a lightning bolt at it, or do you use the reality of electricity following the path of least resistance coupled with the fact that the moisture inside the tree is a better conductor than the air around it to determine that the tree was an unlucky participant in the laws of physics.

Reality explains it all...

You mean you have come up with a hypothesis which attempts to explain a particular phenomenon, i.e. a tree smoking and split.

You have offered an explanation for what you have observed in the world. Reality has no ability to devise explanations. Sentient human beings do this. Reality is the subject of our observations and explanations, not the observation or explanation itself.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

You mean you have come up with a hypothesis which attempts to explain a particular phenomenon, i.e. a tree smoking and split.

You have offered an explanation for what you have observed in the world. Reality has no ability to devise explanations. Sentient human beings do this. Reality is the subject of our observations and explanations, not the observation or explanation itself.

The physical laws of reality are the basis by which we humans (also part of reality) explain things.

Myths don't really get you anywhere.

 

[anonymous person]

The physical laws of reality are the basis by which we humans (also part of reality) explain things.

That is more accurate than what you said earlier.

Humans attempt to explain things by observing causes and their effects in the natural world, among other things.

Myths don't really get you anywhere.

All depends on where a person wants to go. You assume everyone is on the same journey you are on in life. Have you forgotten that each individual determines what is right and wrong, and what they exist for, if indeed you believe that to be the case?

 

[Urlawyer]

Pharaoh was not doing what was right by keeping the Hebrews. He was defying God.

If this perfectly just God exists and His will is to only do what is right, then yes, a free willed finite human who refuses to listen, will be punished. If this God is also omniscient then He already knows who isn't ever going to listen to Him, thus rendering them eternally punished, but from their finite perspective, they would not know this.

You are not Pharaoh, so you possibly have a chance, so maybe it's time to start listening.

If you want to make a point, you need to stop repeating yourself and actually respond with some substance. I just gave you a logical argument for why god wouldn't need to harden anyone's heart, were he omniscient... But then, maybe you just didn't understand; it was a pretty brief explanation (I was typing with my phone at the time). Here, let me elaborate that you might see my point.

If god knew that Pharoah had no intention of letting them go, then what was the point of him hardening his heart? God wouldn't have any need to harden his heart had Pharoah truly been intent on keeping the Hebrews.

The quote is what I originally said; this is what I meant:

God is an omniscient being here; He knows exactly what makes Pharaoh tick and what he has to do in order to get his people out of Egypt. If this is the case, then god could perform exactly what was needed to show his might and scare Pharaoh into letting his people go WITHOUT ANY NEED TO PERSONALLY CONTROL HIS HEART. However much it would take, we don't know. It could very well have taken until God killed his first born son, but God was apparently insecure enough in his plan that he took control of the Pharaoh's will anyway in order to make him more stubborn (or is that not what "hardened his heart" means?). If Pharaoh was truly intent on keeping a firm grip on the Hebrews, then God wouldn't have needed to intervene; Pharaoh would have gone the distance of his own volition. But it clearly says "God hardened Pharaoh's heart"; Not Pharaoh, God.

Pharaoh had plenty of reasons to believe that what Moses was telling him was in fact the truth. Put yourself in Pharaoh's shoes for a second. A guy by the name of Moses tells you of all the things God will do if you don't let His people go and sure enough these things happen, yet for some foolish reason (pride and self-righteousness) you refuse to listen.

Would you do what Pharaoh did or would you listen to Moses and obey God?

Coming away from my argument above, I'll address this issue separately.
I can very easily put myself in Pharaoh's shoes. It's the reason I'm able to take his side. Here, let me show you the story through Pharaoh's eyes:

An excerpt from Pharaoh's Diary:

First of Peret, Fourth day
A couple shepards came in from the country today to speak with me. They were Hebrew. I only know this because they gave the most absurd request that I had ever heard voiced within my halls.
"Let the Hebrew people go!" they said. The throne room went so silent, I could swear I heard a feather drop.
Then, laughter. At first, a couple chuckles, but it started catching and erupted into a roar. The stone walls reverberated the sound until it started to sting in my ears and I called for silence.
I asked them if they knew for what they were requesting. They said they did -well, the taller of the two did; the shorter seemed a mute. I asked them if they knew what kind of economical disaster would ensue were I to let such an uncountable work force simply walk away. They said they did. I started to get annoyed. Then I asked them, if they knew how devastating letting the Hebrew people go would be for Egypt, why they would ask it of me.
They said, "Because our god, Jehovah, will bring devastation upon you if you don't." I got angry.
I told them, in as calm a voice I could muster, that I had never heard of this god "Jehovah" and even if I did, he would have to be a god of extreme power to challenge one under the protection of all the great gods and goddesses of Egypt. Then the shorter one tried to impress me by changing his staff into a snake. I rolled my eyes and waved for my magicians to duplicate the act. They didn't have much more to say after that.
I sent them away with no repercussions; They were clearly deluded... or suffering from heat exhaustion.

People don't understand what it means to be Pharaoh. They think that I merely impose harsh laws and steal away their bread. But without the knowledge I have, this nation would fall into oblivion. If keeping Egypt afloat means enslaving thousands of innocent people, so be it. If it means letting them go and riding out the resulting economical catastrophe, so be it.
But I severely doubt it will ever come to that.

 

[Davian]

...
Is it? Maybe, you haven't considering everything about the God of the Bible or Christianity yet. There could be information that you're missing.

I did consider the story of a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, but I didn't find it compelling.

Was there something I missed?

 

[Davian]

When you die, you'll see the full justice of God, either through forgiveness (Christ taking your sins upon himself) or through punishment (you taking your own sins upon yourself)

Either way God is perfectly just because Jesus freely chose to take the sins of all men who will accept what he has done as true.

In the future you might accept what Jesus has done as true. You never know

Accepting it as true does not make it true.

In another thread, you implied that your theology would hold one responsible for things beyond one's conscious control.

How is that just?

 

[Davian]

Now you see why Jesus Christ is so important to us.

I see that you are back. I look forward to your response to post #774.

 

[Davian]

Mercy means not getting what we deserve and justice is getting what we deserve.

Should we be held accountable for things beyond our control? Is that "justice"?

 

[Davian]

What if the only way to reconcile the unforgivable acts of satan and his followers is to send a perfect being(Jesus) to suffer for the sins of man caused by satan and his followers and when this perfect being willingly suffers then the unforgivable(satan and his followers) can be justly separated from the forgiven(Jesus' followers) for eternity. Satan and his followers receive the just punishment for their acts which is eternal punishment. Jesus receives the just reward for what He did, which is all authority in heaven and on earth and those who follow him receive their rewards of eternal life with God the Father.

Either way, I'd like to see anyone "imagine" a better theology that can explain so much about our very existence.

"Imagined", you got right. "Explain so much" missed the target completely.

 

[Davian]

...
All depends on where a person wants to go. You assume everyone is on the same journey you are on in life. Have you forgotten that each individual determines what is right and wrong, and what they exist for, if indeed you believe that to be the case?

I don't. Where did you get that idea from?

 

[Chriliman]

If you want to make a point, you need to stop repeating yourself and actually respond with some substance. I just gave you a logical argument for why god wouldn't need to harden anyone's heart, were he omniscient... But then, maybe you just didn't understand; it was a pretty brief explanation (I was typing with my phone at the time). Here, let me elaborate that you might see my point.

The quote is what I originally said; this is what I meant:

God is an omniscient being here; He knows exactly what makes Pharaoh tick and what he has to do in order to get his people out of Egypt. If this is the case, then god could perform exactly what was needed to show his might and scare Pharaoh into letting his people go WITHOUT ANY NEED TO PERSONALLY CONTROL HIS HEART. However much it would take, we don't know. It could very well have taken until God killed his first born son, but God was apparently insecure enough in his plan that he took control of the Pharaoh's will anyway in order to make him more stubborn (or is that not what "hardened his heart" means?). If Pharaoh was truly intent on keeping a firm grip on the Hebrews, then God wouldn't have needed to intervene; Pharaoh would have gone the distance of his own volition. But it clearly says "God hardened Pharaoh's heart"; Not Pharaoh, God.




Coming away from my argument above, I'll address this issue separately.
I can very easily put myself in Pharaoh's shoes. It's the reason I'm able to take his side. Here, let me show you the story through Pharaoh's eyes:

An excerpt from Pharaoh's Diary:

First of Peret, Fourth day
A couple shepards came in from the country today to speak with me. They were Hebrew. I only know this because they gave the most absurd request that I had ever heard voiced within my halls.
"Let the Hebrew people go!" they said. The throne room went so silent, I could swear I heard a feather drop.
Then, laughter. At first, a couple chuckles, but it started catching and erupted into a roar. The stone walls reverberated the sound until it started to sting in my ears and I called for silence.
I asked them if they knew for what they were requesting. They said they did -well, the taller of the two did; the shorter seemed a mute. I asked them if they knew what kind of economical disaster would ensue were I to let such an uncountable work force simply walk away. They said they did. I started to get annoyed. Then I asked them, if they knew how devastating letting the Hebrew people go would be for Egypt, why they would ask it of me.
They said, "Because our god, Jehovah, will bring devastation upon you if you don't." I got angry.
I told them, in as calm a voice I could muster, that I had never heard of this god "Jehovah" and even if I did, he would have to be a god of extreme power to challenge one under the protection of all the great gods and goddesses of Egypt. Then the shorter one tried to impress me by changing his staff into a snake. I rolled my eyes and waved for my magicians to duplicate the act. They didn't have much more to say after that.
I sent them away with no repercussions; They were clearly deluded... or suffering from heat exhaustion.

People don't understand what it means to be Pharaoh. They think that I merely impose harsh laws and steal away their bread. But without the knowledge I have, this nation would fall into oblivion. If keeping Egypt afloat means enslaving thousands of innocent people, so be it. If it means letting them go and riding out the resulting economical catastrophe, so be it.
But I severely doubt it will ever come to that.

Do you believe yourself to be a god? If not, then you can't possibly know the true dynamic between Pharaoh and God. The reason God influenced Pharaoh in the way he did was to glorify himself. He hardened his heart, but not by taking direct control of his heart, he hardened it by influencing Pharaoh in only the way God can. The end goal was to show the Egyptians His divine power and to glorify Himself so that they would know that He is God and there are no other gods before him, including Pharaoh. He clearly says this in the scripture:

Exodus 7:3-4
"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them."

If you don't think an omniscient God can influence a man who thinks he is a god in a way that would glorify the one true God, then you've underestimated the one true God. He hardened Pharaoh's heart through what the Hebrews did by obeying God. If you study it closely you notice that after every plague Pharaoh does relent, but then his heart is hardened after what the Hebrews do next.

This is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/i-am-a-god-pharaohs-hardened-heart

 

[Urlawyer]

Do you believe yourself to be a god? If not, then you can't possibly know the true dynamic between Pharaoh and God. The reason God influenced Pharaoh in the way he did was to glorify himself. He hardened his heart, but not by taking direct control of his heart, he hardened it by influencing Pharaoh in only the way God can. The end goal was to show the Egyptians His divine power and to glorify Himself so that they would know that He is God and there are no other gods before him, including Pharaoh. He clearly says this in the scripture:

Exodus 7:3-4
"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them."

If you don't think an omniscient God can influence a man who thinks he is a god in a way that would glorify the one true God, then you've underestimated the one true God. He hardened Pharaoh's heart through what the Hebrews did by obeying God. If you study it closely you notice that after every plague Pharaoh does relent, but then his heart is hardened after what the Hebrews do next.

This is an interesting read on the subject: http://www.reasons.org/articles/articles/i-am-a-god-pharaohs-hardened-heart

I wonder why you didn't just bring this up in the first place. It's pretty much exactly what I've been saying:

God is an omniscient being here; He knows exactly what makes Pharaoh tick and what he has to do in order to get his people out of Egypt. If this is the case, then god could perform exactly what was needed to show his might and scare Pharaoh into letting his people go WITHOUT ANY NEED TO PERSONALLY CONTROL HIS HEART.

Could have saved me the time of coming up with a way to portray the opposite side of the story.
I still wonder though, couldn't God, in all his perfectly just omniscience, have come up with a better way to free the Hebrews and satisfy his lust for glory without the wholesale slaughter of innocent lives?

 

[anonymous person]

I see that you are back. I look forward to your response to post #774.

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Don't hold your breath.

At least that's refreshingly honest.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I still wonder though, couldn't God, in all his perfectly just omniscience, have come up with a better way to free the Hebrews and satisfy his lust for glory without the wholesale slaughter of innocent lives?

Of course. But then you'd have to explain why it didn't happen that way.

 

[Davian]

Don't hold your breath.

What happened? Theology fail?

 

[Davian]

Don't hold your breath.

At least that's refreshingly honest.

While it is relatively straightforward to get the religionist to paint themselves into a corner, there is little one can do to stop them from walking out over the wet paint.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Exodus 5:2
"Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

It's clear that Pharaoh has no intention of letting Israel go, even if their God is real. By his own words he has condemned himself and God knew he would say this. Yes God is hardening Pharaoh's heart, but it's because Pharaoh was never going to freely choose to listen to God no matter what God did, and that is made clear by what Pharaoh freely says, God didn't force him to say these things, Pharaoh said and did these things because he didn't know God.

You can make up excuses for it all you like and put any amount of qualifiers on it.

It will not change the fact that according to the story, god influenced this dude by "hardening his heart" and thereby violated his free will.

This is beyond questioning. This is in direct contradiction of your earlier statements.

Sorry, anything you say about what "perfect justice" is, can't be trusted, unless you yourself are perfectly just. I would think this would be obvious.

But what YOU have to say about it, can be trusted I bet?

This has nothing whatsoever to do with me and my opinions and everything with what words mean.

Mercy / forgiveness is the suspension of justice.

Therefor, "perfect" justice does not include mercy and forgiveness.
You leave the realm of "justice" once you "forgive and show mercy".

This to, is beyond questioning.

It's what the words mean.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Besides, I never said justice must be suspended in order for their to be forgiveness and mercy.

It doesn't matter if you say it or not. It is what the words mean.

To show mercy is to suspend justice. It's what it is.