Near perfect existence

[DogmaHunter]

Pharaoh had hardened his own heart by not willingly letting God's people go.

No, no. It literally states that it is god that hardened pharaoh's heart.
There's no way around that.


New International Version
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

New Living Translation
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and just as the LORD had predicted to Moses, Pharaoh refused to listen.

English Standard Version
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

New American Standard Bible
And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

King James Bible
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

And so on....

But if there is a perfect righteousness to adhere to and you honestly want to adhere to it, shouldn't you be forgiven of your wrong doing by showing a honest, humble desire to be righteous? Or does honesty mean nothing in this world?

It doesn't matter. Mercy / forgiveness is in direct contradiction with "perfect justice".

In "perfect justice", people who did wrong are brought to justice.
Mercy / forgiveness is the suspension of justice.

"Perfect justice" means that everyone pays for his / her wrong doings - no matter the circumstances, remorse or whatever.

If someone murders some else, should they never be forgiven even if they insist that they have a honest change of heart and will never do it again?

Not if the idea is to have "perfect justice".
There is no mercy and forgiveness in "perfect justice".

It would take something omniscient to be able to peer into a man's heart and see if they are truly honestly and humbly sorry for what they've done.

It would also take something that doesn't care about perfect justice.
You can't be the embodiment of perfect justice if in the next breath you are going to suspend justice.

True mercy and forgiveness is impossible for finite man to do because we cannot peer into the heart of others and see if they are truly sorry for what they've done. Sure a man can say they are sorry, but they might be sincere. Only an omniscient being could actually see what's in the heart of a man and would be the only being capable of truly forgiving them if the man is truly sorry.

It doesn't matter.
There is no "suspension of justice" in a context of "perfect justice".

They are a contradiction in terms.

Where has God punished rational thinking?

Are you serious?
In christianity, salvation is literally dependend on believing things on bad evidence (that is to say: on faith). It's not rational to believe things on bad evidence. Believing things on bad evidence is being gullible.

What scapegoat are you referring to? Jesus is God.

Jesus is a scapegoat. It's the entire purpose of the crucifixion: killing a person for the sins of others, absolving them of their guilt.

Literally punishing a scapegoat for the crimes of others.

This would be like you willing sacrificing yourself for someone you love to have life.

Which would be immoral. Not to mention the opposite of justice. Because the actual guilty will go free, while an innocent took the punishment.

Again, only an omniscient God who can peer into the hearts of men is capable of truly forgiving man entirely.

Which is the opposite of justice.

If the ancestors never sought forgiveness from the only God that can grant it, why shouldn't their transgressions carry down into their offspring?

Because guilt is not carried by genes and it is COMPLETELY IMMORAL to hold off spring responsible for the transgressions of parents.

If the offspring seek forgiveness, God may grant it, since the ancestors never did.

Offspring doesn't require any forgiveness for the crimes of parents because the parents committed the crimes, not the offspring.

What an immoral thing to say........

This is akin to a rapist impregnating his victim through rape, then killing himself after which you would put the child in jail for the "crime" of rape.

It's absolutely despicable. And you dare to call that "perfect justice"?

This belief goes to the core of man, it's not merely a choice, it's a deep desire for truth that can't be found anywhere else. After, this truth is found, you're behavior is continually being improved through the power of God who is perfectly righteous.

No, it's not. And you have already demonstrated in this post alone that your god is anything BUT righteous.

This is just reason nr 313512 as to why this system is despicable.

Is it?

Clearly it is, as you have again demonstrated.

Maybe, you haven't considering everything about the God of the Bible or Christianity yet.

I can only consider your particular version of this god in this conversation.
For every "christian" I ever talked to who said "this is what my god is about", I have met other "christians" that said "well, that christian is not a real christian and this is what my god is all about".

Considering your particular version of this religion - nope, it is absolutely correct that this is the opposite of "perfect justice", as I have clearly explained and demonstrated in these last few posts.

There could be information that you're missing.

Perhaps, but it won't change anything.
All I need to do is point out the contradiction between "perfect justice" and "mercy".

The two simply cannot co-exist.

 

[Chriliman]

No, no. It literally states that it is god that hardened pharaoh's heart.
There's no way around that.


New International Version
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.

New Living Translation
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and just as the LORD had predicted to Moses, Pharaoh refused to listen.

English Standard Version
But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

New American Standard Bible
And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

King James Bible
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

And so on....

Exodus 5:2
"Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

It's clear that Pharaoh has no intention of letting Israel go, even if their God is real. By his own words he has condemned himself and God knew he would say this. Yes God is hardening Pharaoh's heart, but it's because Pharaoh was never going to freely choose to listen to God no matter what God did, and that is made clear by what Pharaoh freely says, God didn't force him to say these things, Pharaoh said and did these things because he didn't know God.

It doesn't matter. Mercy / forgiveness is in direct contradiction with "perfect justice".

Sorry, anything you say about what "perfect justice" is, can't be trusted, unless you yourself are perfectly just. I would think this would be obvious.

 

[Chriliman]

Besides, I never said justice must be suspended in order for their to be forgiveness and mercy. There is no forgiveness and mercy if you don't ask for it.

I have been punished for my transgressions in this life and I have sought forgiveness and have received it and I continue to seek and continue to receive. If I never seek forgiveness from the only One that can grant it, then perfect justice will be served eternally.

 

[Urlawyer]

Exodus 5:2
"Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

It's clear that Pharaoh has no intention of letting Israel go, even if their God is real. By his own words he has condemned himself and God knew he would say this. Yes God is hardening Pharaoh's heart, but it's because Pharaoh was never going to freely choose to listen to God no matter what God did, and that is made clear by what Pharaoh freely says, God didn't force him to say these things, Pharaoh said and did these things because he didn't know God.




Sorry, anything you say about what "perfect justice" is, can't be trusted, unless you yourself are perfectly just. I would think this would be obvious.

If god knew that Pharoah had no intention of letting them go, then what was the point of him hardening his heart? God wouldn't have any need to harden his heart had Pharoah truly been intent on keeping the Hebrews.
Even though Pharoah initially defied a god he had no reason to believe exsited (would you give up a large portion of your posessions to a man who showed up at your doorstep and told you his god Osiris would plague you if you didn't) he likely would have complied after the first couple plagues. But god had to go and kill hundreds, if not thousands of innocent children including Pharaoh's own son.
So just, don't you think?

 

[Urlawyer]

It's akin to a torturer charged with getting information out of a victim, but even though the victim is willing to comply after a couple smacks, the torturer waterboards him anyway... and then kills his kid.

 

[Chriliman]

If god knew that Pharoah had no intention of letting them go, then what was the point of him hardening his heart? God wouldn't have any need to harden his heart had Pharoah truly been intent on keeping the Hebrews.

Pharaoh was not doing what was right by keeping the Hebrews. He was defying God.

If this perfectly just God exists and His will is to only do what is right, then yes, a free willed finite human who refuses to listen, will be punished. If this God is also omniscient then He already knows who isn't ever going to listen to Him, thus rendering them eternally punished, but from their finite perspective, they would not know this.

You are not Pharaoh, so you possibly have a chance, so maybe it's time to start listening.

Even though Pharoah initially defied a god he had no reason to believe exsited (would you give up a large portion of your posessions to a man who showed up at your doorstep and told you his god Osiris would plague you if you didn't) he likely would have complied after the first couple plagues. But god had to go and kill hundreds, if not thousands of innocent children including Pharaoh's own son.
So just, don't you think?

Pharaoh had plenty of reasons to believe that what Moses was telling him was in fact the truth. Put yourself in Pharaoh's shoes for a second. A guy by the name of Moses tells you of all the things God will do if you don't let His people go and sure enough these things happen, yet for some foolish reason (pride and self-righteousness) you refuse to listen.

Would you do what Pharaoh did or would you listen to Moses and obey God?

It's a good thing you're not Pharaoh right?

 

[quatona]

Sorry, anything you say about what "perfect justice" is, can't be trusted, unless you yourself are perfectly just. I would think this would be obvious.

My or our ideas about perfect justice aren´t the issue - the issue is that from within Christian theology - you won´t be able to make a case for perfect justice and mercy being reconcilable concepts.
But you may want to start by giving generic definitions of "justice" and "mercy" that don´t render them mutually exclusive. Good luck.

 

[Chriliman]

My or our ideas about perfect justice aren´t the issue - the issue is that from within Christian theology - you won´t be able to make a case for perfect justice and mercy being reconcilable concepts.
But you may want to start by giving generic definitions of "justice" and "mercy" that don´t render them mutually exclusive. Good luck.

When you die, you'll see the full justice of God, either through forgiveness (Christ taking your sins upon himself) or through punishment (you taking your own sins upon yourself)

Either way God is perfectly just because Jesus freely chose to take the sins of all men who will accept what he has done as true.

In the future you might accept what Jesus has done as true. You never know

 

[quatona]

When you die, you'll see the full justice of God, either through forgiveness (Christ taking your sins upon himself) or through punishment (you taking your own sins upon yourself)

Doesn´t address the problems I have pointed out. Please try again: read my post, respond to that which has been said - you know, the stuff people are supposed to do in a discussion.
If justice can mean "the judge takes your sins upon himself" as well as "you take your sins upon yourself", all you are left with is arbitrariness - the very opposite of justice.
When justice requires that you don´t have to take your sins upon yourself, there is neither space nor need for mercy or forgiveness.

 

[anonymous person]

All I need to do is point out the contradiction between "perfect justice" and "mercy".

The two simply cannot co-exist.

Now you see why Jesus Christ is so important to us.

 

[Chriliman]

Doesn´t address the problems I have pointed out. Please try again: read my post, respond to that which has been said - you know, the stuff people are supposed to do in a discussion.
If justice can mean "the judge takes your sins upon himself" as well as "you take your sins upon yourself", all you are left with is arbitrariness - the very opposite of justice.

It's not "as well as". One single finite individual cannot both accept what Jesus did and take their own sins upon themselves. It's one or the other. You either accept Jesus and become perfect like Him and are judged based on works through Christ, or you don't accept Christ and are left taking your sins upon yourself, falling under God's judgment and eternal wrath.

When justice requires that you don´t have to take your sins upon yourself, there is neither space nor need for mercy or forgiveness.

But apart from Christ, you do have to take your sins upon yourself and accept eternal judgment/wrath. However, in Christ, means Christ has taken the judgment/wrath upon Himself and in doing so He has pleased the Father and made it possible for those who believe to be made perfect as well.

Either way the Father is pleased to punish the guilty and pleased to accept perfection through what Jesus Christ did. Either way the Father will be glorified for accomplishing what He has and is and will accomplish.

This is what I believe to be true and through believing I can know it is true.

 

[quatona]

It's not "as well as". One single finite individual cannot both accept what Jesus did and take their own sins upon themselves. It's one or the other. You either accept Jesus and become perfect like Him and are judged based on works through Christ, or you don't accept Christ and are left taking your sins upon yourself, falling under God's judgment and eternal wrath.

So the only criterium for justice is: "accepting Jesus"?
Still doesn´t leave room for mercy. A person who has "accepted Jesus" doesn´t need mercy to "become perfect" - it´s, according to your reasoning, the just consequence. "Mercy" and "forgiveness", by their very definition, signify exceptions from justice.

But apart from Christ, you do have to take your sins upon yourself and accept eternal judgment/wrath. However, in Christ, means Christ has taken the judgment/wrath upon Himself and in doing so He has pleased the Father and made it possible for those who believe to be made perfect as well.

Either way the Father is pleased to punish the guilty and pleased to accept perfection through what Jesus Christ did. Either way the Father will be glorified for accomplishing what He has and is and will accomplish.

This is what I believe to be true and through believing I can know it is true.

Yeah whatever - but we aren´t talking General Apologetics here. We are talking about the impossibility for a judge to reconcile exerting "perfect justice" and "mercy". He can do one or the other.

 

[quatona]

Now you see why Jesus Christ is so important to us.

Because being a believer allows you to redefine words as you walk along?

 

[anonymous person]

Because being a believer allows you to redefine words as you walk along?

No. That's not it at all my friend. If you really want to know why I said what I said and are not just trying to be facetious and argumentative then I will be pleased to tell you.

 

[quatona]

No. That's not it at all my friend. If you really want to know why I said what I said and are not just trying to be facetious and argumentative then I will be pleased to tell you.

No, I am not interested in hearing General Apologetics. At this point, I am just looking forward to seeing generic definitions of "mercy" and "justice" that allow for one verdict to be both at the same time. You trying to be defensive and evasive won´t help.

 

[anonymous person]

No, I am not interested in hearing General Apologetics. At this point, I am just looking forward to seeing generic definitions of "mercy" and "justice" that allow for one verdict to be both at the same time. You trying to be defensive and evasive won´t help.

Mercy means not getting what we deserve and justice is getting what we deserve.

 

[Chriliman]

So the only criterium for justice is: "accepting Jesus"?
Still doesn´t leave room for mercy. A person who has "accepted Jesus" doesn´t need mercy to "become perfect" - it´s, according to your reasoning, the just consequence. "Mercy" and "forgiveness", by their very definition, signify exceptions from justice.

What if the only way to reconcile the unforgivable acts of satan and his followers is to send a perfect being(Jesus) to suffer for the sins of man caused by satan and his followers and when this perfect being willingly suffers then the unforgivable(satan and his followers) can be justly separated from the forgiven(Jesus' followers) for eternity. Satan and his followers receive the just punishment for their acts which is eternal punishment. Jesus receives the just reward for what He did, which is all authority in heaven and on earth and those who follow him receive their rewards of eternal life with God the Father.

Either way, I'd like to see anyone "imagine" a better theology that can explain so much about our very existence.

 

[quatona]

What if the only way to reconcile the unforgivable acts of satan and his followers is to send a perfect being(Jesus) to suffer for the sins of man caused by satan and his followers and when this perfect being willingly suffers then the unforgivable(satan and his followers) can be justly separated from the forgiven(Jesus' followers) for eternity. Satan and his followers receive the just punishment for their acts which is eternal punishment. Jesus receives the just reward for what He did, which is all authority in heaven and on earth and those who follow him receive their rewards of eternal life with God the Father.

Did you not understand the question?

Either way, I'd like to see anyone "imagine" a better theology that can explain so much about our very existence.

We aren´t discussing theology, at this point.
But to humour you: Nothing in your above paragraph explains anything about our very existence. It´s all assumptions about some imagined future, about Jesusses, Satans, Gods, eternity. All sorts of fancy stuff - no mentioning or explanation of our very existence at all.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Either way, I'd like to see anyone "imagine" a better theology that can explain so much about our very existence.

Why would an atheist do that? I think reality explains our existence pretty well.

 

[anonymous person]

Why would an atheist do that? I think reality explains our existence pretty well.

How does reality explain anything.

Is not reality that which is?