Near perfect existence

[Chriliman]

Why?

And we don't agree...no matter how much you'd like to pretend so.

Let's say this infinite eternal God gave a finite man the ability to prove Himself, would it not be true that this finite man was only able to prove God because God allowed it, thus showing that only God can prove himself, even if he uses a finite man to do it?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let's say this infinite eternal God gave a finite man the ability to prove Himself, would it not be true that this finite man was only able to prove God because God allowed it, thus showing that only God can prove himself, even if he uses a finite man to do it?

No...that's illogical.

An infinite "anything" (god included) would be present everywhere.

Therefore, if it's detectable at all, it would be detectable everywhere.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Let's say this infinite eternal God gave a finite man the ability to prove Himself, would it not be true that this finite man was only able to prove God because God allowed it, thus showing that only God can prove himself, even if he uses a finite man to do it?

The problem is that you're trying really hard (and failing) to make reality fit the story you like...instead of seeing if the story you like fits reality.

It doesn't.

 

[anonymous person]

First step first. Let´s see how far your proof goes into the details of your god concept.

No thanks. This is not general apologetics.

 

[anonymous person]

You do tend to get ahead of yourself there.

I'm still waiting for you back at post #774.

I am content with taking a break for the time being.

 

[Chriliman]

No...that's illogical.

An infinite "anything" (god included) would be present everywhere.

Therefore, if it's detectable at all, it would be detectable everywhere.

Right, it would be detectable everywhere and at any point in your life and it would also not be able to control your free will because that would be unjust. So, it would be up to you to freely ask God to make his presence known to you. Ask and you shall receive.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Right, it would be detectable everywhere and at any point in your life and it would also not be able to control your free will because that would be unjust. So, it would be up to you to freely ask God to make his presence known to you. Ask and you shall receive.

I've tried...long ago....he never showed.

What's the logical conclusion to that result?

He doesn't exist.

 

[Chriliman]

I've tried...long ago....he never showed.

What's the logical conclusion to that result?

He doesn't exist.

I'm sincerely glad you have asked, that's a good sign, but remember, if this God is real, he wants access to the deepest part of your being in order to make you perfect like he is. one has to be willing to give there all to God in exchange for God to make them perfect.

Do you desire to be freed from all evil and lies and only have truth to rely on?

Just think about it and remember what I said about it being rational to believe in the possibilty of God because that is a true statement even if you don't believe it.

Have a good night

 

[Ana the Ist]

I'm sincerely glad you have asked, that's a good sign, but remember, if this God is real, he wants access to the deepest part of your being in order to make you perfect like he is. one has to be willing to give there all to God in exchange for God to make them perfect.

I noticed you avoided the obvious conclusion once again.

That's the truth...whether you believe it or not.

 

[Davian]

I am content with taking a break for the time being.

No problem. That post will still be there when you get back.

 

[Davian]

Right, it would be detectable everywhere and at any point in your life and it would also not be able to control your free will because that would be unjust. So, it would be up to you to freely ask God to make his presence known to you. Ask and you shall receive.

Do you send letters to Santa? Why not? Do you not want free stuff?

 

[Davian]

I'm sincerely glad you have asked, that's a good sign, but remember, if this God is real, he wants access to the deepest part of your being in order to make you perfect like he is. one has to be willing to give there all to God in exchange for God to make them perfect.

And if gods are not real, you are imagining all of this.

Do you desire to be freed from all evil and lies and only have truth to rely on?

I don't think I would like to rely on religious opinion, if your posting history is anything to go on..

Just think about it and remember what I said about it being rational to believe in the possibilty of God because that is a true statement even if you don't believe it.

You still have yet to define what you mean by "God".

Have a good night

 

[Davian]

No thanks. This is not general apologetics.

Apologetics is not proof. It is what you do in the absence of proof.

 

[Urlawyer]

Right, it would be detectable everywhere and at any point in your life and it would also not be able to control your free will because that would be unjust.

Emphasis mine.

I don't think you mean that God would be "unable" to control your free will; He's omnipotent after all right? He just wouldn't out of courtesy.

I'm sincerely glad you have asked, that's a good sign, but remember, if this God is real, he wants access to the deepest part of your being in order to make you perfect like he is.

I really never understood this concept of perfection. Who determines what is perfect? My answer would be yourself, since perfection is a subjective term.
In the case of there being an omnipotent creative god, the burden of definition is on him, but also the execution of said definition. Here, as I see it, we have six possibilities (assuming the existence of a creative god):

1. Everything that exists is already in a perfect state of being as determined and executed by the creator.
2. Everything that exists is in an unintentional perfect state of being as determined by the creator.
   
3. Everything that exists is in an imperfect state of being as determined and executed by the creator.
4. Everything that exists is in an unintentional imperfect state of being as determined by the creator.
5. &6. Only some things that exist are in an intentional/unintentional perfect state of being as determined by the creator.

Option one implies that everything is already perfect as is and doesn't need any further changes; so everyone from Christians to Buddhists, from saints to murderers are fine as they are and don't need to seek truth or find redemption.
Option two implies the same as option one, but also refutes any omnipotence.
Option three implies that, for whatever reason, this creator made the universe imperfectly. In the context of humans (assuming we are the focus of his intent) this means that he would ultimately be responsible for any ramifications of this imperfection, meaning he is ultimately responsible for any and all peoples he throws into hell.
Option four doesn't necessarily imply the same as three, but it refutes any omnipotence like option two.
Options five and six either refute omnipotence, place blame on the creator, or both.

I'll just stick with my own definition: you're all perfect.

 

[Chriliman]

Emphasis mine.

I don't think you mean that God would be "unable" to control your free will; He's omnipotent after all right? He just wouldn't out of courtesy.

I meant what I said. God is unable to be unjust, therefore not omnipotent in the sense that He actually can't do whatever is possible, like control free will, He can only do what is in His perfect will, which includes being perfectly just. This would also mean God is perfect, therefore, the canon of what it means to be perfect.

Do you want to reconsider the rest of what you've said considering this correct information about God?

 

[Urlawyer]

I meant what I said. God is unable to be unjust, therefore not omnipotent in the sense that He actually can't do whatever is possible, like control free will, He can only do what is in His perfect will, which includes being perfectly just. This would also mean God is perfect, therefore, the canon of what it means to be perfect.

I've gotta admit, I've never heard of a believer describe God as not being omnipotent. That's one paradox off the table, well done.
But there are places in which God has been shown to control the actions of men. Does your rule about God not being able to control free will only apply in some cases?

Do you want to reconsider the rest of what you've said considering this correct information about God?

No, (correct information? I'm just curious, in no way will it affect the rest of our discussion, but could you cite where you're getting your information?) it doesn't change much. You've only allowed yourself some wiggle room within the options of four and six where this creator unintentionally creates imperfect or perfect things within the universe. I can see the potential for this, hypothetically, but it does call into question the extent of this creator's knowledge and power, neither of which could be considered "omni".
If you subscribe to the notion that this creator is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, it brings everything down to a realistically manageable level, I confess. As far as the issue of perfection is concerned, it seems to me this is a solid argument.

 

[Davian]

I meant what I said. God is unable to be unjust, <snip>

In another thread, you implied that your theology would hold one responsible for things beyond one's conscious control.

How is that just?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Hypothetically, if you realized the truth about how life came to be, wouldn't you want to tell everyone about it?

Hypothetically, yes.
So? What was the point of this question?

Abiogenesis is just a collection of theories, not necessarily the truth.

"just" theories? Really?

Off course they aren't "necessarily" the truth. Nothing in science is "necessarily" the truth. Science is not in the game of dogma's or absolutes.

Abiogenesis is technically in hypothesis stage. However, it's oftenly called theory because eventhough it's not really "solved" or "conclusive", it's still the best we got at this point, while there are no viable alternative models.

So for all practical intents and purposes, abiogenesis is our best model of the origins of life that we currently have.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I meant what I said. God is unable to be unjust, therefore not omnipotent in the sense that He actually can't do whatever is possible, like control free will, He can only do what is in His perfect will, which includes being perfectly just.

*ahum*

http://biblehub.com/exodus/9-12.htm
= your god, hardening the heart of pharao, making sure that he will not listen to or believe the words and miracles of Moses. If that isn't messing around with someone's free will - then I don't know what is.


Also, a "perfectly just" being is not in the business of mercy and forgiveness.

Mercy and forgiveness is the suspension of justice.

A "perfecly just" being would not reward gullibility while punishing rational thinking.
A "perfecly just" being would not punish a scapegoat for the crimes of others.
A "perfecly just" being would not consider off spring to carry the guilt of the crimes of ancestors.
A "perfecly just" being would, in his judgement, not put more importance on what you believed instead of how you behaved.

The god of the bible is the very opposite of "perfectly just".
And christianity as a whole is a testament to that fact.

 

[Chriliman]

*ahum*

http://biblehub.com/exodus/9-12.htm
= your god, hardening the heart of pharao, making sure that he will not listen to or believe the words and miracles of Moses. If that isn't messing around with someone's free will - then I don't know what is.

Pharaoh had hardened his own heart by not willingly letting God's people go. God had given him many chances to listen and let them go. God being omniscient already knew Pharaoh would not listen and this knowledge is independent of Pharaoh's free will. God is not obligated to continue to give Pharaoh chances to listen, eventually God will give him over to the desires of Pharaoh's own heart.

God will give man many chances to listen, but if they don't listen God is not obligated to continue trying to get them to listen, eventually he does pull his spirit away completely and in doing so, gives them over to the powers of evil, which is what a man really wants, when they are so unwilling to listen to God.

Also, a "perfectly just" being is not in the business of mercy and forgiveness.

But if there is a perfect righteousness to adhere to and you honestly want to adhere to it, shouldn't you be forgiven of your wrong doing by showing a honest, humble desire to be righteous? Or does honesty mean nothing in this world?

If someone murders some else, should they never be forgiven even if they insist that they have a honest change of heart and will never do it again? It would take something omniscient to be able to peer into a man's heart and see if they are truly honestly and humbly sorry for what they've done.

Mercy and forgiveness is the suspension of justice.

True mercy and forgiveness is impossible for finite man to do because we cannot peer into the heart of others and see if they are truly sorry for what they've done. Sure a man can say they are sorry, but they might not be sincere. Only an omniscient being could actually see what's in the heart of a man and would be the only being capable of truly forgiving them if the man is truly sorry.

A "perfecly just" being would not reward gullibility while punishing rational thinking.

Where has God punished rational thinking?

A "perfecly just" being would not punish a scapegoat for the crimes of others.

What scapegoat are you referring to? Jesus is God. This would be like you willing sacrificing yourself for someone you love to have life. Again, only an omniscient God who can peer into the hearts of men is capable of truly forgiving man entirely, if they honestly want the forgiveness..

A "perfecly just" being would not consider off spring to carry the guilt of the crimes of ancestors.

If the ancestors never sought forgiveness from the only God that can grant it, why shouldn't their transgressions carry down into their offspring? If the offspring seek forgiveness, God may grant it, since the ancestors never did.

A "perfecly just" being would, in his judgement, not put more importance on what you believed instead of how you behaved.

This belief goes to the core of man, it's not merely a choice, it's a deep desire for truth that can't be found anywhere else. After this truth is found, you're behavior is continually being improved through the power of God who is perfectly righteous.

The god of the bible is the very opposite of "perfectly just".
And christianity as a whole is a testament to that fact.

Is it? Maybe, you haven't considering everything about the God of the Bible or Christianity yet. There could be information that you're missing.