Natural selection v Intelligent design

[Loudmouth]

No it isn't. Well perhaps for some. But for others it is a conclusion reached as the most obvious explanation of the same evidence that you would see.

Prove it. Go to my thread on ERV's and show us that the most obvious explanation for the pattern of ERV's in the genomes of humans and other apes is creationism.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/endogenous-retroviruses-and-human-evolution-v-2.7911273/

Faith basically is a trusting in, relying on, and cleaving to someone or something...these speak of something tangible to the person, not something merely imagined.

No, it isn't. Following evidence is the opposite of faith.

 

[stevevw]

Who says they are "too ordered" to result from a natural process?

It depends on how much order you want to attach to nature. Thats what design is about ordered information and not random. How does natural selection choose a swirl pattern in a cabbage for example. Why that pattern and not many other patterns. Why is does that patterns always conform to certain numbers whether its plants, weather, astronomy ect. Why do those numbered patterns fall into secondary patterns and numbers throughout all existence whether its to do with physics or biology like they are all linked to a set of numbers and patterns. I think there is even a deeper level of order that we havnt even realized. It goes beyond evolution because it seems to be linked by a universal system. How much design capability do you want to give nature.

 

[Loudmouth]

Only in absence of what YOU would call scientific evidence....I never required evidence to believe my aunt Daisy in Halifax was real even though I never personally met her...especially scientific evidence
Did you have photos, phone conversations, letters, emails? Those are all scientific evidence.

No, but I know my grandmother was not a liar....

And how do you know this?

I never required scientific evidence to KNOW my children love me but they do...

You have scientific evidence that they exist which means you don't have to use faith.

But no scientific evidence that they love me...yet I do not doubt it...

Again, you have scientific evidence that they exist. When you have the same evidence for God, let us know.

 

[Loudmouth]

It depends on how much order you want to attach to nature. Thats what design is about ordered information and not random. How does natural selection choose a swirl pattern in a cabbage for example. Why that pattern and not many other patterns.

Why does a lottery machine choose one combination of numbers and not another?

You are painting a bulls eye around the bullet hole.

Why is does that patterns always conform to certain numbers whether its plants, weather, astronomy ect. Why do those numbered patterns fall into secondary patterns and numbers throughout all existence whether its to do with physics or biology like they are all linked to a set of numbers and patterns. I think there is even a deeper level of order that we havnt even realized. It goes beyond evolution because it seems to be linked by a universal system. How much design capability do you want to give nature.

Why is the density of water always 1 g/ml in a standard environment?

 

[Loudmouth]

Abiogenesis is the science of how life was created in the first place. I find it to be extremely necessary of an atheist's rejection of intelligent design, as the process for life beginning seems to require extraordinary conditions. Almost if needed to be created by an intelligence.

I don't know how life got started. I don't have to explain how life started in order to recognize that no one has any evidence that a deity created the first life. All you are doing is trying to shift the burden of proof onto others, which is a logical fallacy. As Hitch used to say,

"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence."--Christopher Hitchens

 

[Davian]

Abiogenesis is the science of how life was created in the first place. I find it to be extremely necessary of an atheist's rejection of intelligent design,

I find it odd to see a Christian be an advocate of "intelligent design", as the evidence provided in support of intelligence design is also that in support of a 13 billion-year-old cosmos, life on this planet evolving over billions of years, and not in favour of a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old.

as the process for life beginning seems to require extraordinary conditions.

What were those conditions? It is my understanding that the biological process of life began on this planet not long after it had cooled sufficiently to allow that process to happen. This was recently mentioned on a recent Astronomycast podcast.

http://www.astronomycast.com/2015/05/ep-376-the-miller-urey-experiment/

One of the podcast's hosts is Christian, if that matters to you.

Almost if needed to be created by an intelligence.

Almost.

 

[Crowns&Laurels]

the biological process of life began on this planet not long after it had cooled sufficiently to allow that process to happen. This was recently mentioned on a recent Astronomycast podcast.

That was mentioned thirty years ago. According to evolution it would have to be at that time. It's not some edifying discovery, just another condition.

 

[Davian]

That was mentioned thirty years ago. According to evolution it would have to be at that time. It's not some edifying discovery, just another condition.

Go on. What are the rest of these "extraordinary conditions" that you alluded to?

Did you listen to the podcast?

 

[Black Dog]

View attachment 164232
It just seems that many scientists use terms like language, code, systems, patterns, information, order, ect when they refer to DNA and life. They even use maths to show the patterns in nature as shown in the video I linked. The spiral pattern of a nautilus sea shell, or a cabbage, or cyclone or spiral galaxy is the same and these patterns repeat in nature. They all conform to certain numbers which is described in Fibonacci sequences or the Golden ratio. These are part of the greater patterns and codes we see in nature which seem to be more than just random numbers and patterns. Yet they are too ordered to be product of nature alone.
http://plus.maths.org/content/life-and-numbers-fibonacci

It makes sense that scientists would use terms like language to draw an analogy which can be used to illustrate certain aspects of DNA. That doesn't mean they think they are a language. And I think Fibonacci sequences and the Golden Ratio are quite common in nature. Fibonacci sequences and the Golden Ratio being common is what you would expect from evolution, because they are a best solution.

 

[Black Dog]

It depends on how much order you want to attach to nature. Thats what design is about ordered information and not random. How does natural selection choose a swirl pattern in a cabbage for example. Why that pattern and not many other patterns. Why is does that patterns always conform to certain numbers whether its plants, weather, astronomy ect. Why do those numbered patterns fall into secondary patterns and numbers throughout all existence whether its to do with physics or biology like they are all linked to a set of numbers and patterns. I think there is even a deeper level of order that we havnt even realized. It goes beyond evolution because it seems to be linked by a universal system. How much design capability do you want to give nature.

Part of it is these patterns maximize potential. Check out this math site for kids (no insult, it's just got a really cool graphic calculator for testing the golden ratio and other ratios for seed distribution in a sunflower plant).

 

[stevevw]

Why does a lottery machine choose one combination of numbers and not another?

You are painting a bulls eye around the bullet hole.

Why is the density of water always 1 g/ml in a standard environment?

The problem is the same numbers keep coming up. So its like having a random lottery machine with not just 6 numbers but with many numbers ie 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55, ect that keep coming up. The odds for just 6 numbers out of 42 is millions to 1. So imagine the odds for 20 numbers or many numbers out of hundreds of numbers. But then imagine the odds for the same many numbers coming up over and over again.

Thats the same for the patterns like in a cabbage, hurricane, galaxy, shell, flowers ect. If you had a lottery machine that kept bring the same numbers up over and over again you would say it was fixed and that there was some meddling going on from a human. But when it comes to design in nature its different and nature is suddenly given this ability to do all sorts of things that look like design but its not according to evolution and atheists.

 

[Black Dog]

Thats the same for the patterns like in a cabbage, hurricane, galaxy, shell. If you had a lottery machine that kept bring the same numbers up over and over again you would say it was fixed and that there was some meddling going on from a human. But when it comes to design in nature its different and nature is suddenly given this ability to do all sorts of things that look like design but its not according to evolution and atheists.

There is "meddling" going on. But by Evolution. Did you visit that math site I linked you to? It has a great explanation of the exact stuff you are talking about here.

 

[stevevw]

It makes sense that scientists would use terms like language to draw an analogy which can be used to illustrate certain aspects of DNA. That doesn't mean they think they are a language. And I think Fibonacci sequences and the Golden Ratio are quite common in nature. Fibonacci sequences and the Golden Ratio being common is what you would expect from evolution, because they are a best solution.

Why is that, Why not 4 petals on a flower. The fact that there are flowers with 4 or 6 petals shows that the possibility is there. But the fibonacci numbers are chosen most of the time throughout nature.

 

[stevevw]

There is "meddling" going on. But by Evolution. Did you visit that math site I linked you to? It has a great explanation of the exact stuff you are talking about here.

No Ive just came back on but I will check it out. But if evolution meddles it is meddling to the point of design. The other point is its not just in evolution. Its in physics and astrology as well. Plus fibonacci is only part of it. There are many other evidences of design with codes, patterns, systems, language, ordered information in nature and life.

 

[stevevw]

double post

 

[Black Dog]

No Ive just came back on but I will check it out. But if evolution meddles it is meddling to the point of design. The other point is its not just in evolution. Its in physics and astrology as well. Plus fibonacci is only part of it. There are many other evidences of design with codes, patterns, systems, language, ordered information in nature and life.

I'll wait until you check it out. It addresses your questions regarding the Golden ration and Fibonacci sequences in cabbages, sunflowers, and other plants and animals.

 

[stevevw]

I'll wait until you check it out. It addresses your questions regarding the Golden ration and Fibonacci sequences in cabbages, sunflowers, and other plants and animals.

I'll wait until you check it out. It addresses your questions regarding the Golden ration and Fibonacci sequences in cabbages, sunflowers, and other plants and animals.

OK I'm back now, I had to pop out for a while as well. So I read the article you links which was interesting and informative thanks. The way I understand what the article was saying is that nature seems to have a certain way of creating the patterns in flowers for example which best optimizes their ability to live and thrive. For example flower seeds in sunflowers form circles which are the best structure for holding it together. leaves or petals form symmetrical patterns where they allow each leaf or petal to have maximum sunlight. In other words its only natural for these patterns to form because they have a logical reason which is all to do with survival and optimizing life.

The problem with this is that these patterns and numbers are also seen in non living things. They are found in physics from the quantum world to spiral galaxies. The planet ratios in our solar system and the ratios of our own moon to the earth. They are found in things such as hurricanes to meandering rivers and mountain ranges. They are also found from the design in our bodies and their proportions to the structure of our DNA in the double helix. So it seems this mathematics equation is seen in all aspects of things and is remarkably common to the point that you have to question whether its a coincident or has happened by random chance.

It is said that these patterns and calculation using math’s in nature were discovered rather than humans coming up with them. So maybe we have stumbled upon a great equation that all life and existence is based on. The article still doesn't address how these patterns and designs got there in the first place. All humans are doing is discovering these things and then trying to explain them in a naturalistic way. But that’s all they are doing. An explanation doesn't have creative power or solve the problem of how it happened. Math’s doesn’t create it only explains.

It is logical that a flower petal or seed will turn to the sun to get light. But that ability didn't happen at the flower face. It happened in its genetic programming down at the molecular level. What we see in a spiral galaxy is the end result of a greater design code from astrophysics and physics in general. The laws of physics didn’t just pop into existence from nothing. They didn’t just formulate as a result of random chance which culminated in those laws which govern everything ending up to be just right for everything to work so well and in order. The precise parameters for life didn’t just occur randomly. There are many physical constants that must be just right for life to happen.

There is evidence that the building blocks of life being the 20 amino acids are like the laws of physics. These basic protein folds are preset structural forms which may have been around all the time and are universal like the laws of physics. That they didn't form from evolution and adaptations or random mutations but are natural occurring forms that are a part of nature.
The protein folds as Platonic forms: New support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law
The folds are evidently determined by natural law, not natural selection, and are "lawful forms" in the Platonic and pre-Darwinian sense of the word, which are bound to occur everywhere in the universe where the same 20 amino acids are used for their construction.
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14417556

What we end up seeing is just the end result of other things that create them. All mankind is doing is trying to under these patterns, mathematical languages, codes and order and their role in the greater scheme of things. But we will never understand this because we just havnt got the capacity to do so. But a world view will of course try to explain them in a natural way. When humans design something there is also a logical method to how it works but it is still designed. God is not going to design the DNA for a flower and the sun and then make the flower that needs the sun not be able to maximize the life giving energy of it. All plants need the sun and are designed to work with the sun. But like I said just realizing that there is a logical method to how they work doesn’t mean they created themselves.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

It depends on how much order you want to attach to nature. Thats what design is about ordered information and not random.

Ugh, you're still not listening...

 

[bhsmte]

Ugh, you're still not listening...

If he listens fully, his faith is threatened.

 

[stevevw]

Ugh, you're still not listening...

Still not listening to what. Besides I think I know what you are on about.If your meaning that evolution has the ability to design through natural selection your missing the point. Many of the designs have nothing to do with evolution. You seem to not explain yourself properly so its hard to know what you mean.

Besides this continual your still not listening thing you keep saying is missing the point completely. I have shown you that I have heard and understood what you are saying but have said several times that I disagree and have explained why and linked support for this. But it seems because I am disagreeing you interpret that as not listening. It seems you have already decided that you are right no matter what and unless I agree with that then I am either wrong or not listening.