Natural selection v Intelligent design

[paulm50]

Many claim everything on Earth is from a god or Intelligent Design. Claiming Natural Selection couldn't create something as involved and complex as all the species on Earth.

And yet, evidence comes up all the time of how unintelligent the design of these species are. Early humans migrated out of Africa through Egypt rather than Ethiopia, new study says.

Natural selection, which is proven. Isn't intelligent. It's hit and miss, creatures evolve and become extinct as climates change, continents shift, and even asteroids hit the Earth. Or even one animal, Man, develops faster than others and kill off other species.

To claim that was gods work or remotely intelligent is, in my opinion, ignoring the obvious.

 

[stevevw]

Many claim everything on Earth is from a god or Intelligent Design. Claiming Natural Selection couldn't create something as involved and complex as all the species on Earth.

And yet, evidence comes up all the time of how unintelligent the design of these species are. Early humans migrated out of Africa through Egypt rather than Ethiopia, new study says.

Natural selection, which is proven. Isn't intelligent. It's hit and miss, creatures evolve and become extinct as climates change, continents shift, and even asteroids hit the Earth. Or even one animal, Man, develops faster than others and kill off other species.

To claim that was gods work or remotely intelligent is, in my opinion, ignoring the obvious.

Natural selection may be proven to a point but it hasn't been proven to be a driving force that can create new complex organisms or creatures. Tests and studies done indicate a fittest loss and deterioration overall over time so there is no real benefit in the long run. It is not just about natural selection but also beneficial mutations and they are very rare. Most mutations are neutral and there may be many that are harmful. Studies may indicate more slightly deleterious mutations that they thought. Certainly to so that all the amazing complexity and variety came from something that is mostly harmful/neutral and a copying mistake of something that was already good is yet to be proved and hard to believe.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022283604007624
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2014.4
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2012.4

 

[OldWiseGuy]

And yet, evidence comes up all the time of how unintelligent the design of these species are. Early humans migrated out of Africa through Egypt rather than Ethiopia, new study says.

How did science determine which direction they were travelling?

 

[paulm50]

How did science determine which direction they were travelling?

They were following the animals which were following the grazing.

Man has done this since the beginning. Along with other species. To argue that Early Man only travelled to Egypt or wherever is absurd.

Natural selection may be proven to a point but it hasn't been proven to be a driving force that can create new complex organisms or creatures. Tests and studies done indicate a fittest loss and deterioration overall over time so there is no real benefit in the long run. It is not just about natural selection but also beneficial mutations and they are very rare. Most mutations are neutral and there may be many that are harmful. Studies may indicate more slightly deleterious mutations that they thought. Certainly to so that all the amazing complexity and variety came from something that is mostly harmful/neutral and a copying mistake of something that was already good is yet to be proved and hard to believe.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022283604007624
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2010.4
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2014.4
http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/view/BIO-C.2012.4

So are you saying god created cells that mutated, from what?

Once you come away from the bible, it's basis is flawed. Your argument proves that some worked and others didn't. This is establish science and proof there was no Intelligence behind it. The best you can claim is trial and error.

Which is how nature created single cell beings, then double cell, then cells that instead of splitting to reproduce, mated in a primitive way. Yes some mutated, some survived and some died. What's clear is there was no "Intelligent supreme being". And certainly nothing to do with what's in Genesis.

"Science is getting closer and closer to the very core of existence. The closer they get the more they will see that there may of been a creator. But it's got nothing to do with the bible."

Genesis is either spot on, as the word of god. Or stories by Bronze age men. It can't even be a little wrong.

 

[paulm50]

Men once laughed at the idea we were related to Apes. No DNA has proven beyond any shadow of doubt we are related, so close that at some point in time we were the same species.

We, descended from monkeys, during fetal development we have a tail and lose it in the 9th week. Did god make us from apes or playing a joke on us. Which includes men having nipples. Where was the intelligent design in that process?

 

[Davian]

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Men once laughed at the idea we were related to Apes. No DNA has proven beyond any shadow of doubt we are related, so close that at some point in time we were the same species.

We are related to every living creature, as we are pretty much made of the same stuff.

We, descended from monkeys, during fetal development we have a tail and lose it in the 9th week. Did god make us from apes or playing a joke on us. Which includes men having nipples. Where was the intelligent design in that process?

Fetuses only appear to have a tail early on. It's the early spine that is just longer than the rest of the fetus and is soon surrounded by other tissue.

 

[GrimKingGrim]

You always have popcorn and none to share.

 

[quatona]

Many claim everything on Earth is from a god or Intelligent Design. Claiming Natural Selection couldn't create something as involved and complex as all the species on Earth.

And yet, evidence comes up all the time of how unintelligent the design of these species are. Early humans migrated out of Africa through Egypt rather than Ethiopia, new study says.

Natural selection, which is proven. Isn't intelligent. It's hit and miss, creatures evolve and become extinct as climates change, continents shift, and even asteroids hit the Earth. Or even one animal, Man, develops faster than others and kill off other species.

To claim that was gods work or remotely intelligent is, in my opinion, ignoring the obvious.

I have never understood how "natural selection" and "intelligent design" are at necessarily at odds: An intelligent designer could have invented natural selection.
On another note, I don´t understand how pointing out flaws helps disproving intelligence. For to be acknowleged as intelligent a designer needn´t be perfect.

 

[stevevw]

They were following the animals which were following the grazing.

Man has done this since the beginning. Along with other species. To argue that Early Man only travelled to Egypt or wherever is absurd.



So are you saying god created cells that mutated, from what?

Once you come away from the bible, it's basis is flawed. Your argument proves that some worked and others didn't. This is establish science and proof there was no Intelligence behind it. The best you can claim is trial and error.

Which is how nature created single cell beings, then double cell, then cells that instead of splitting to reproduce, mated in a primitive way. Yes some mutated, some survived and some died. What's clear is there was no "Intelligent supreme being". And certainly nothing to do with what's in Genesis.

"Science is getting closer and closer to the very core of existence. The closer they get the more they will see that there may of been a creator. But it's got nothing to do with the bible."

Genesis is either spot on, as the word of god. Or stories by Bronze age men. It can't even be a little wrong.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying there is no intelligence in life's design and therefore no creator God behind it.

 

[stevevw]

I have never understood how "natural selection" and "intelligent design" are at necessarily at odds: An intelligent designer could have invented natural selection.
On another note, I don´t understand how pointing out flaws helps disproving intelligence. For to be acknowleged as intelligent a designer needn´t be perfect.

 

[stevevw]

Evolutionists use to say that most of our genomes was junk DNA. This was to highlight that design was mostly simple and therefore can be explained through a chance and random process that comes mostly from an error in the copying of what is already working to make better and more complex life. But now scientists are finding a lot more function in the so called junk DNA and many evolutionists have resisted the evidence along the way. This is the same more many aspects of life and slowly but surely we are beginning to see the great complexity yet orchestrated design in things from even simple organisms to the finely tuned universe that is designed for life.

Natural selection does and can work with intelligent design. Its the capacity that its given that is in dispute. Creatures have the ability to adapt and change to conditions they encounter in their environments. But those changes come mostly if not completely from a genetic ability that is already there. This is where the so called junk DNA may come in. Maybe there is a lot more capacity for creatures to draw on their existing genetics to change and switch on and off genes or recombine their existing genetics to bring about those changes. But those creature primarily remain as they are but have a great capacity for variation. They dont turn into other creatures and all living things didn't come from a common ancestor.

In fact evidence shows that there were many lines for where all creatures come from and that the genetic capacity was there from a very early point in the scheme of things. Too early for that complexity to have evolved from a gradual process that has very rare beneficial mutation for the amount that would be needed to just make small changes where several mutational changes are needed at the same time.

 

[quatona]

Science is getting closer and closer to the very core of existence. The closer they get the more they will see that there had to be a creator.

I understand that this is what you hope for.
Your prophecy is not addressing my post, though.

 

[paulm50]

I have never understood how "natural selection" and "intelligent design" are at necessarily at odds: An intelligent designer could have invented natural selection.
On another note, I don´t understand how pointing out flaws helps disproving intelligence. For to be acknowleged as intelligent a designer needn´t be perfect.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying there is no intelligence in life's design and therefore no creator God behind it.

Natural selection has thrown out too many species that couldn't adapt to nature changing the World they were living in. The evidence for that is indisputable, unless you want to deny every piece of science and study. Even in today's world nature is changing and species are dying out.

Creatures have the ability to adapt and change to conditions they encounter in their environments.

Some did, many didn't. Take the period of Megafauna, Giant Sloths, Mammoths, Sabre Tooth Tigers, etc. Didn't adapt, Cougars, bears, wolves, did or were better suited for the changes. How intelligent was that?

So did the intelligent designer create a world that nature would change and many creatures that wouldn't?

I do however agree with Steve that there was a common base. Single cell creatures.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

I believe in evoluiton but I am a solopsist, and then a theist. The odds of someone soo cool as me actually existing being so improbale etc etc etc.

 

[stevevw]

Natural selection has thrown out too many species that couldn't adapt to nature changing the World they were living in. The evidence for that is indisputable, unless you want to deny every piece of science and study. Even in today's world nature is changing and species are dying out.

I still dont get where your coming from. Your signature states that you are a christian. So are you say that there is no role for God is the creation of animals. Natural selection many have thrown out variations of existing creatures and still some may not have survived for various reasons. But were they just a greater variation of an existing creature that may have even changed a fair amount to look different from the original ones. But still they stem from the original kinds ie though there are many bird species they are all still birds. The there is HGT which can account for a great deal of transference of genetic info as well.

Some did, many didn't. Take the period of Megafauna, Giant Sloths, Mammoths, Sabre Tooth Tigers, etc. Didn't adapt, Cougars, bears, wolves, did or were better suited for the changes. How intelligent was that?

How do we know that these creatures and organisms didn't die out and just became smaller versions of themselves. There is evidence for many creatures that were bigger like crabs, wombats, sharks, crocs, elephants, tigers, kangaroos, insects, plants ect that are much the same today but smaller versions. Even so an animals dieing out isn't a sign for a lack of intelligent design. It just means the environment may have changed faster than they could adapt. Just like today where we are losing thousands of species each year because humans are destroying the environment.

But not matter which way you look at it life has a lot of complex design that exceeds any natural process to create it. The evidence is showing that for a chance naturalistic process to create some of the complex systems needed to make life function is impossible. We are now seeing the amazing complexity of our DNA with some 3 billion letters of genetic language which is also a code which makes the design of life. The chances of all these things being created through a chance and naturalistic process to come together in the right time and place is impossible.

So did the intelligent designer create a world that nature would change and many creatures that wouldn't?

Of course creatures can change. Its all there in their DNA. There is a great deal of ability within a creatures genetics to change. Its all there ready to be tapped into. Animals and their environment work together. they are both living and changing organisms. Thats the way they were made. At the same time sinse the fall of man everything is deteriorating. So things will break down and decay. There will be faults and diseases and genetic abnormalities. We are seeing more and more of this all the time.

I do however agree with Steve that there was a common base. Single cell creatures.

micro organisms have a great capacity to share genetic info and evolutionists say that life started with micro organisms. So if they have this almost unlimited ability to share genetic info through HGT then maybe all of the genetic info from all life was shared with all that lived in the beginning without the need for natural selection. If that is the case then everything from then on in already had all the genetic info they needed to become what they become. Maybe this explains the Cambrian explosion that seemed to create a vast amount of body plans fairly quickly in evolutionary terms and from virtually nowhere and without much evidence for any gradual evolution.

 

[paulm50]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/s...e-on-europa-in-its-next-mission-10285170.html

We learn more every day.

 

[paulm50]

I still dont get where your coming from. Your signature states that you are a christian. So are you say that there is no role for God is the creation of animals. Natural selection many have thrown out variations of existing creatures and still some may not have survived for various reasons. But were they just a greater variation of an existing creature that may have even changed a fair amount to look different from the original ones. But still they stem from the original kinds ie though there are many bird species they are all still birds. The there is HGT which can account for a great deal of transference of genetic info as well.

How do we know that these creatures and organisms didn't die out and just became smaller versions of themselves. There is evidence for many creatures that were bigger like crabs, wombats, sharks, crocs, elephants, tigers, kangaroos, insects, plants ect that are much the same today but smaller versions. Even so an animals dieing out isn't a sign for a lack of intelligent design. It just means the environment may have changed faster than they could adapt. Just like today where we are losing thousands of species each year because humans are destroying the environment.

But not matter which way you look at it life has a lot of complex design that exceeds any natural process to create it. The evidence is showing that for a chance naturalistic process to create some of the complex systems needed to make life function is impossible. We are now seeing the amazing complexity of our DNA with some 3 billion letters of genetic language which is also a code which makes the design of life. The chances of all these things being created through a chance and naturalistic process to come together in the right time and place is impossible.

Of course creatures can change. Its all there in their DNA. There is a great deal of ability within a creatures genetics to change. Its all there ready to be tapped into. Animals and their environment work together. they are both living and changing organisms. Thats the way they were made. At the same time sinse the fall of man everything is deteriorating. So things will break down and decay. There will be faults and diseases and genetic abnormalities. We are seeing more and more of this all the time.

micro organisms have a great capacity to share genetic info and evolutionists say that life started with micro organisms. So if they have this almost unlimited ability to share genetic info through HGT then maybe all of the genetic info from all life was shared with all that lived in the beginning without the need for natural selection. If that is the case then everything from then on in already had all the genetic info they needed to become what they become. Maybe this explains the Cambrian explosion that seemed to create a vast amount of body plans fairly quickly in evolutionary terms and from virtually nowhere and without much evidence for any gradual evolution.

You agree, then disagree. Due to a lack of real knowledge. Research how we got from a single cell being and by a process of survival of the fittest, which doesn't mean what you think it does. It wasn't always the fittest that survived, sometime is was the weakest, who could hide in a burrow and escape. Or the less fit who required less food, etc.

Then you'll see the randomness of the process where the species including man. Were ruled by nature, climate and events outside their control like meteorites.

Also you're straying a long way from the bible to prove the bible story is right. Maybe god did create the soup that created the first single cell from which we evolved, maybe he took a member of the ape family and bestowed it with a bigger brain. But that says the bible is wrong.

Natural selection has no mention in the bible. And the writers started from a time when there were hunters and farmers. Hence the conflict between Cain and Abel.

I'm a Christian in so far as believing in the way we should live and treat others. Just disagree with men using the power religion gives them.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Natural selection has no mention in the bible. And the writers started from a time when there were hunters and farmers. Hence the conflict between Cain and Abel.

Abel was a shepherd of domesticated animals, not a hunter.

 

[Moral Orel]

So the idea is that if something is incredibly intelligent and advanced and complex that it requires an intelligent creator, right? It would be impossible for it to occur naturally and develop all on its own? So anything that is complex, intelligent, and advanced was created. So then God was created by Mega-God? God is more intelligent, advanced, and complex than humans, so he requires creation more than even us. Why is it more likely that something complex came first, and then something more basic? Does that ever happen in nature?

And I reject the idea that because the statistical probability for the conditions necessary for life to occur being as low as it is makes it impossible either. If the universe is infinite in size, and that means that there are an infinite number of atoms crashing together simultaneously, then it is not just likely, but absolutely certain that life will exist.

If I tell you that I am thinking of a number and I tell you to guess it, but I give you all of eternity to guess, and you can make an infinite number of guesses per second, how quickly will you guess that number?