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Natural selection v Intelligent design

pshun2404

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You are saying that the consensus of the overwhelming number of relevant experts is bunk yet you have nothing but less-than-a-layperson's understanding of the subject at hand.

No not bunk at all. They see this unfounded opinion as a reasonable explanation but it is not based on fact, as I have shown (therefore I did answer your point)....is it not your camp that always says if there is no physical evidence then it is not so? Yes it is! Now apply the same rules to the things you accept as true and test them by your same requirement. Venter's experiment though brilliant and very creative clearly DOES NOT infer abiogenesis at all. It infers man's incredible advancement in genetic engineering relying on extant life to start and extant life to finish...I applaud Venter, but am ashamed of those who impose these assumption based conclusions into his remarkable achievement.

It is like the story of the Ostrich. For decades I spoke with people who believed the assumptions that because of the smaller keel this implied Ostriches evolved into being flightless birds over millions of years (the present keel ALLEGEDLY being a vestigial development). I argued against the assumption part not the fact part. Then we discovered the ancestor of the Ostrich (Palaeotis from the middle Eocene era) from 40,000,000 years ago even then had a smaller keel not like the larger one required by the assumption based conclusion. So just as with the Kakpos in New Zealand I stand ON the FACT that there is ZERO evidence for the assumption, though the fiction that would fit the pre-determined conclusion (making the theory appear to be true) is still spouted as "obvious" by the majority (but based on NOTHING real)....

So continue with the insults it does not surprise me but you are still not showing anything that cannot be reasonably and logically seen in other ways and with that I say HURRAH, the majority is often wrong about so many things, if it were not we would still be in the dark ages, or convinced of a universe based on Newtonian Mechanics, and likely still enslaving people of African descent, and women would certainly never have voted.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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Ever wonder why biblical creationists need to lump abiogenesis together with evolution, to try and muddy the waters?

Abiogenesis is the science of how life was created in the first place. I find it to be extremely necessary of an atheist's rejection of intelligent design, as the process for life beginning seems to require extraordinary conditions. Almost if needed to be created by an intelligence.
 
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stevevw

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I wish you creationists would make up your mind. I have seen posts by creationists claiming DNA is a programming language. This article says there is room for many errors and chaotic recursions. That does not describe a programming language. So, is it a programming language, or a human language?
Its both ( but I.m not a creationists by the way.)
 
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Black Dog

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Its both ( but I.m not a creationists by the way.)

Actually, it's neither. It's a chemical process. Unless you want to call all chemical processes programming languages, in which case why not call them chemical processes to differentiate them from what we call programming languages?
 
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pshun2404

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The chemical process aspect is simply that chemicals follow and obey predetermined established laws whether these are reactions and compounds human intelligences have categorized as inorganic or organic (our classification systems are by us for our benefit, they are not actual distinctions that nature decided. Those necessary covalent bonds for example that we see in the material forms of all living things are not themselves anything (we even see these in plastics) but chemical bonds that can form anywhere in the Universe that the conditions are right. They are not alive.
 
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stevevw

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Actually, it's neither. It's a chemical process. Unless you want to call all chemical processes programming languages, in which case why not call them chemical processes to differentiate them from what we call programming languages?
Its more than a chemical process. Even a process can have structure and instructions. Chemicals are just that chemical. They mean nothing unless there is a formula, code, structure, language that will make it something. Its like the ink and paper in a book. They are both made of chemicals and atoms. But they means nothing on their own and are just material things. The ink that the words use is just ink. But the words that are written with it and the intelligence and language those words have is what makes it something.

But life can be both mathematics or a code and also random and unpredictable. Research has shown that there is a high level of maths in nature. Certain numbers work better and are found in the amount of things in nature. But on the other hand things like the weather have an unpredictable nature about them like in chaos theory. so its neither one nor the other but both.
 
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Black Dog

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Its more than a chemical process. Even a process can have structure and instructions. Chemicals are just that chemical. They mean nothing unless there is a formula, code, structure, language that will make it something. Its like the ink and paper in a book. They are both made of chemicals and atoms. But they means nothing on their own and are just material things. The ink that the words use is just ink. But the words that are written with it and the intelligence and language those words have is what makes it something.

But life can be both mathematics or a code and also random and unpredictable. Research has shown that there is a high level of maths in nature. Certain numbers work better and are found in the amount of things in nature. But on the other hand things like the weather have an unpredictable nature about them like in chaos theory. so its neither one nor the other but both.

I might be able to agree with some of the above, but no one has shown that DNA is a language, human or programming.
 
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Black Dog

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Abiogenesis is the science of how life was created in the first place. I find it to be extremely necessary of an atheist's rejection of intelligent design, as the process for life beginning seems to require extraordinary conditions. Almost if needed to be created by an intelligence.
Who or what created the intelligence that created the intelligence?
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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Who or what created the intelligence that created the intelligence?

What is transcendent of time has no beginning. In fact, because time didn't exist before the Big Bang, the only thing that needs to be discovered is a causation.
 
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Black Dog

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What is transcendent of time has no beginning. In fact, because time didn't exist before the Big Bang, the only thing that needs to be discovered is a causation.

If intelligence and life don't need a cause (your god), why does our intelligence and life need a cause?
 
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Foxhole87

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What is transcendent of time has no beginning. In fact, because time didn't exist before the Big Bang, the only thing that needs to be discovered is a causation.
And one may not be needed due to fundamental principles at a quantum level that we are beginning to understand (and definitely not spooky "intelligence-driven" things).
 
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stevevw

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View attachment 164232
I might be able to agree with some of the above, but no one has shown that DNA is a language, human or programming.
It just seems that many scientists use terms like language, code, systems, patterns, information, order, ect when they refer to DNA and life. They even use maths to show the patterns in nature as shown in the video I linked. The spiral pattern of a nautilus sea shell, or a cabbage, or cyclone or spiral galaxy is the same and these patterns repeat in nature. They all conform to certain numbers which is described in Fibonacci sequences or the Golden ratio. These are part of the greater patterns and codes we see in nature which seem to be more than just random numbers and patterns. Yet they are too ordered to be product of nature alone.
http://plus.maths.org/content/life-and-numbers-fibonacci
 

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Crowns&Laurels

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And one may not be needed due to fundamental principles at a quantum level that we are beginning to understand (and definitely not spooky "intelligence-driven" things).

What exactly is your definition of 'beginning to understand'? ^_^

Quantum physics is full of paradoxes and unfounded theory.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Abiogenesis is the science of how life was created in the first place. I find it to be extremely necessary of an atheist's rejection of intelligent design, as the process for life beginning seems to require extraordinary conditions. Almost if needed to be created by an intelligence.
What are the conditions needed to bring about an intelligence?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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View attachment 164232
It just seems that many scientists use terms like language, code, systems, patterns, information, order, ect when they refer to DNA and life. They even use maths to show the patterns in nature as shown in the video I linked. The spiral pattern of a nautilus sea shell, or a cabbage, or cyclone or spiral galaxy is the same and these patterns repeat in nature. They all conform to certain numbers which is described in Fibonacci sequences or the Golden ratio. These are part of the greater patterns and codes we see in nature which seem to be more than just random numbers and patterns. Yet they are too ordered to be product of nature alone.
Who says they are "too ordered" to result from a natural process?
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Ever wonder why atheists stick to evolution and dodge abiogenesis like a bat in sunlight?

It's like watching them shoot at God with an arrowless bow.

In fact, I'm quaintly reminded of King Nimrod when he sent archers to the top of the tower of Babel to wage war with Heaven- an exercise in futility.
Now you know the unadulterated version of the story, and why some are called 'nimrods' ^_^
No one is dodging abiogenesis. We don't yet know how life first originated. It doesn't follow that "therefore, Goddidit."
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Wrong about what.
To start with, Ben Carson being an authority on the evolution of the brain.
And just out of interest, hypothetically if I conceded can you remind me what does that prove.
What does you refusing to concede prove? Intransigence.
 
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Foxhole87

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What exactly is your definition of 'beginning to understand'? ^_^

Quantum physics is full of paradoxes and unfounded theory.
Says the irrelevant layperson who has no credibility yet has discarded the scientific study out of personal incredulity.
 
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Foxhole87

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No one is dodging abiogenesis. We don't yet know how life first originated. It doesn't follow that "therefore, Goddidit."
Every single argument for creationism (of all types) features this fatal error yet creationists (of all types) disregard it.

This is fundamental "learn how to think well" stuff. Creationists rely on philosophers instead of scientists to tell them how the natural world works. The nonsense vomited up by creation apologists is mistaken for sophisticated intellectualism.
 
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Crowns&Laurels

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Says the irrelevant layperson who has no credibility yet has discarded the scientific study out of personal incredulity.

Says Michio Kaku and a myriad of other physicists who straight came out and said that physics has currently hit a wall.
 
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