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Natural selection v Intelligent design

pshun2404

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That's great - but what natural law does it violate? that expectations must be satisfied? that a diagnosis is always correct? that your condition will inevitably give you kidney stones? that you can't recover or be in remission from that condition? I don't see it.
So one of several conditions doesn't progress as expected without meds and you think God has intervened to do that? Is it always the intervention of God when people unexpectedly recover or have remissions without medication? If not, how can we tell - does the individual always get a message (e.g. a still small voice)?

No Frum, it is because I would never have assumed it, or stopped my meds...it is because He told me to...that's definitely outside what YOU would call thew natural order (I see it as quite natural)...of course some conditions go into remission because this wonderfully and fearfully made body can and does on many occasions win the battle against illness...but this was not a natural occurrence in the sense you would describe.
 
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pshun2404

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Some scientists at NASA believe that the ocean under Europa’s surface does not consist of water, but say light reflected from the moon’s icy surface bears the spectral fingerprints of hydrogen peroxide and strong acids, perhaps close to pH 0. Which is correct...we have found some trace h2o in the atmosphere but very, very, little...not surprising as there is hydrogen and oxygen present among the hostile to life combinations of atmospheric conditions....but who cares? What is the point? The Bible never says there is no life anywhere else in the Universe...it never addresses the issue...

Likewise there is no proof of water (as we know it) on Saturn but there are water molecules in the rings....again no biggie
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Our similiarity to animals makes a good argument that we are related to them which could be seen as more evidence of evolution. But the thing is, we have the ability to discern right from wrong. If we say we evolved over millions of years like animals did, then why didnt we become like all the other animals in the world and not have free will like they do?
Other animals, particularly primates and monkeys, do show they know about fairness (see Moral Behaviour in Monkeys) and have a sense of right and wrong (see Can Animals be Moral? and The Bonobo & the Atheist). Even rats show clear evidence of altruistic behaviour (see Will You Rat Me Out?). The main difference seems to be the complexity and sophistication of our concepts of fairness and right & wrong - we have more advanced metacognition, which means we can reason about right and wrong.

If we have free will, there's no reason to suppose they don't have a simple version of it too (although that depends precisely what you mean by free will and how you can test for it). If you can propose a well-controlled test or experiment that can distinguish between free will and lack of free will, and that doesn't rely on some other exclusively human trait, such as language, there's a chance we could discover who has it and who doesn't. But first you need an unambiguous definition of free will - what is yours?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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..it is because He told me to...that's definitely outside what YOU would call thew natural order...
No, not really; hearing voices is far more common than many people are aware - enough to be considered relatively normal, as is acting on odd or potentially harmful ideas. Doing both and getting away with it could be considered lucky...
..but this was not a natural occurrence in the sense you would describe.
I don't have enough of the details to judge, but (assuming your recall isn't distorted and your report is affected by confirmation bias - unwitting influences we're all subject to and are also more common than many suppose), it seems unusual rather than unnatural; unnatural is just how you interpret it.

Many people stop taking meds and have no further problems - doing it as a result of a voice is likely to be much less common, but I would expect plenty others out there to have had similar experiences. For example, it's very common in schizophrenia (note - I'm not saying you are schizophrenic), but in those cases outcome is usually unfavourable.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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... there is no proof of water (as we know it) on Saturn but there are water molecules in the rings....again no biggie
Saturn is a gas giant, less dense than water - we don't know if it has a core, but there's water throughout its gas layers (see Water on Saturn - section 'Mystery Solved').
 
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stevevw

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Which has already happened.
Yes there is evidently quite a few. The nearest one is only 4.2 light years away near alpha Centauri Bb. But at our current speed it could take about 165,000 years to get there. They say its not suitable for life anyway as it orbits to close to its star. But they think there might be others. The next lot of about 50 odd are 15 light years away. So getting there would be the problem to confirm that there is water or life. Even so I would have thought being that close that the radio wave signals we have been sending out would have been received and responded to if there were life there.

When you consider what evolution claims about life then you would expect to find some on other planets. The latest hypothesis is that the building blocks for life hitch hiked its way to us on a comet or meteor. So if thats the case then with all these other planets in habitation zones around we should expect to find something. Afterall if there's water then chances are there will be the other chemicals needed to make life and then we have alien neighbors all over the place. I can see it now it will be like guardians of the Galaxy.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The latest hypothesis is that the building blocks for life hitch hiked its way to us on a comet or meteor.
It may be the latest for you, but the first known mention of panspermia was by Anaxagoras the Greek philosopher - in the 5th century BC (!) Scientific versions of the idea became popular in the mid-19th century.
 
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Larniavc

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bhsmte

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It may be the latest for you, but the first known mention of panspermia was by Anaxagoras the Greek philosopher - in the 5th century BC (!) Scientific versions of the idea became popular in the mid-19th century.

He may be in a time warp.
 
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stevevw

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You can't have 'no liquid' and 'traces of liquid'. Both Europa (Jupiter) and Enceladus (Saturn) have vast oceans of liquid water beneath a frozen surface - Europa's is thought to be more than twice the total volume of Earth's oceans. Ganymede (Jupiter) also has indications of a large subsurface ocean of liquid water.
As far as I understand they are not sure. It could be another frozen chemical like methane. Even so how does life survive in these places. There is nothing there but ice which is well below any temperature life can survive. But chances are there will be all sorts of toxic chemicals. There wont be enough sunlight either as well as the many other things needed to sustain life.
Just as on Earth, in some areas that is true, in other areas, the deposits show the chemistry could have supported microbial life - see NASA Rover Finds Conditions Once Suited for Ancient Life on Mars.
We don't know that yet. Plenty of water has been found.
Thats exactly right we dont know yet so it is all speculation in the mean time. But its in scientists interest to find life elsewhere. In fact they will be almost willing it into existence.
You don't need an atmosphere to have life-sustaining water; water isn't 'generated' by the atmosphere.
But you need an atmosphere to continue to produce water in the right amount and consistency. To be able to continue to feed the earth with water and not either dry it out or freeze it up. Even the earths tilt and orbit plays its part in getting the right climatic conditions. The wrong atmosphere and everything is frozen to the point where nothing can live or toasted to death. In fact it would get started in the first place.

I know there are bacteria which can live in pretty hostile conditions so maybe life can survive in these situations. But we havnt found any sign of life yet. But now we are moving towards all the other conditions that need to be there to create life. That is why they say life is so finely tuned. Earths atmosphere is a complex layered thing which will keep dangerous UV rays out and oxygen in to breath. Without an atmosphere, Earth would likely be just another lifeless rock.

I could be that to produce enough amounts of the type of water that sustains the life as we know it you also need to have the right sort of atmosphere. One that creates the right conditions for weather patterns and keeps everything working with each other to create oxygen to breath. Thats why all the other planets we have looked at are dead and barren rocks with no life. But water is just one part of this and there are 100s of things that need to be just right to create life.
 
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stevevw

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It may be the latest for you, but the first known mention of panspermia was by Anaxagoras the Greek philosopher - in the 5th century BC (!) Scientific versions of the idea became popular in the mid-19th century.
Fair enough you learn some new everyday. But scientists went through their experimentation of trying to create life in a tube. Now they have been seriously trying for 50 or 60 years without much success or havnt come close to explaining how this can happen they are turning to this idea again more and more. Afterall it takes away the hassle of having to explain things and moves the problem further away. But if this is true and given that you say there is water in many parts of the universe I would expect that there would be ample life out there in one form or another. Afterall if the ingredients for life happen to fall on out planet which was exactly just right for harboring it then you would have to say that there must have been many other planets which didn't succeed. Otherwise what are the chances of all the ingredients for life falling on one planet out of billions which happened to end up with the right conditions for creating that life.
 
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Loudmouth

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As far as I understand they are not sure. It could be another frozen chemical like methane. Even so how does life survive in these places. There is nothing there but ice which is well below any temperature life can survive. But chances are there will be all sorts of toxic chemicals. There wont be enough sunlight either as well as the many other things needed to sustain life.
Thats exactly right we dont know yet so it is all speculation in the mean time. But its in scientists interest to find life elsewhere. In fact they will be almost willing it into existence.
But you need an atmosphere to continue to produce water in the right amount and consistency. To be able to continue to feed the earth with water and not either dry it out or freeze it up. Even the earths tilt and orbit plays its part in getting the right climatic conditions. The wrong atmosphere and everything is frozen to the point where nothing can live or toasted to death. In fact it would get started in the first place.

I know there are bacteria which can live in pretty hostile conditions so maybe life can survive in these situations. But we havnt found any sign of life yet. But now we are moving towards all the other conditions that need to be there to create life. That is why they say life is so finely tuned. Earths atmosphere is a complex layered thing which will keep dangerous UV rays out and oxygen in to breath. Without an atmosphere, Earth would likely be just another lifeless rock.

I could be that to produce enough amounts of the type of water that sustains the life as we know it you also need to have the right sort of atmosphere. One that creates the right conditions for weather patterns and keeps everything working with each other to create oxygen to breath. Thats why all the other planets we have looked at are dead and barren rocks with no life. But water is just one part of this and there are 100s of things that need to be just right to create life.

We can find features on every planet that require a very narrow range of conditions to produce. You are painting the bullseye around the bullet hole.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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As far as I understand they are not sure. It could be another frozen chemical like methane.
No, as I said, it's liquid water. Great geysers of water burst from cracks in the surface ice. I notice salty liquid water on Ganymede has now been confirmed via Hubble.
There is nothing there but ice which is well below any temperature life can survive.
No, there's vast amounts of liquid water.
But chances are there will be all sorts of toxic chemicals.
Why?
There wont be enough sunlight either as well as the many other things needed to sustain life.
Sunlight isn't necessary. There's life on Earth that never sees sunlight or uses the products of sunlight.
But you need an atmosphere to continue to produce water in the right amount and consistency. To be able to continue to feed the earth with water and not either dry it out or freeze it up.
No, you don't. The consistency of water required is liquid water.
Even the earths tilt and orbit plays its part in getting the right climatic conditions.
For you and me, yes; but some microbes don't need that.
I know there are bacteria which can live in pretty hostile conditions so maybe life can survive in these situations. But we havnt found any sign of life yet.
We haven't yet tested for it beyond Mars.
I could be that to produce enough amounts of the type of water that sustains the life as we know it
Liquid water, you mean?
you also need to have the right sort of atmosphere
No, you don't.
One that creates the right conditions for weather patterns and keeps everything working with each other to create oxygen to breath.
Weather doesn't create oxygen and isn't necessary for the creation of oxygen; and oxygen isn't necessary for life - in fact it's toxic to some life. Ever hear of anaerobic bacteria?
Thats why all the other planets we have looked at are dead and barren rocks with no life.
Half the planets in the solar system are not rocky, they're gaseous, and we don't yet know if any have life.

I'm going to stop refuting your posts point by point this way, and just assume a (generous) 90% bad science & pseudo-science content. I recommend other readers follow suit.
 
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stevevw

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We can find features on every planet that require a very narrow range of conditions to produce. You are painting the bullseye around the bullet hole.
No thats not true. Many scientists recognize the fine tuning principle of our universe and life. There are many constants that point to this fine tuning. To many to be dismissing it as nothing special. Here are some but there are many more.

Cosmic coincidences

The main drivers here are some truly perplexing developments in physics and cosmology. In recent years physicists and cosmologists have uncovered numerous eye-popping "cosmic coincidences," remarkable instances of apparent "fine-tuning" of the universe.
Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-04-science-philosophy-collide-fine-tuned-universe.html#jCp
Fine Tuning Parameters for the Universe
  1. strong nuclear force constant
    if larger: no hydrogen would form; atomic nuclei for most life-essential elements would be unstable; thus, no life chemistry
    if smaller: no elements heavier than hydrogen would form: again, no life chemistry
  2. weak nuclear force constant
    if larger: too much hydrogen would convert to helium in big bang; hence, stars would convert too much matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
    if smaller: too little helium would be produced from big bang; hence, stars would convert too little matter into heavy elements making life chemistry impossible
  3. gravitational force constant
    if larger: stars would be too hot and would burn too rapidly and too unevenly for life chemistry
    if smaller
    : stars would be too cool to ignite nuclear fusion; thus, many of the elements needed for life chemistry would never form
  4. electromagnetic force constant
    if greater: chemical bonding would be disrupted; elements more massive than boron would be unstable to fission
    if lesser: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
  5. ratio of electromagnetic force constant to gravitational force constant
    if larger: all stars would be at least 40% more massive than the sun; hence, stellar burning would be too brief and too uneven for life support
    if smaller
    : all stars would be at least 20% less massive than the sun, thus incapable of producing heavy elements
  6. ratio of electron to proton mass
    if larger: chemical bonding would be insufficient for life chemistry
    if smaller: same as above
  7. ratio of number of protons to number of electrons
    if larger: electromagnetism would dominate gravity, preventing galaxy, star, and planet formation
    if smaller: same as above
  8. expansion rate of the universe
    if larger: no galaxies would form
    if smaller
    : universe would collapse, even before stars formed
  9. entropy level of the universe
    if larger: stars would not form within proto-galaxies
    if smaller: no proto-galaxies would form
  10. mass density of the universe
    if larger: overabundance of deuterium from big bang would cause stars to burn rapidly, too rapidly for life to form
    if smaller: insufficient helium from big bang would result in a shortage of heavy elements
  11. velocity of light
    if faster: stars would be too luminous for life support if slower: stars would be insufficiently luminous for life support
  12. age of the universe
    if older: no solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would exist in the right (for life) part of the galaxy
    if younger: solar-type stars in a stable burning phase would not yet have formed
  13. initial uniformity of radiation
    if more uniform: stars, star clusters, and galaxies would not have formed
    if less uniform: universe by now would be mostly black holes and empty space
  14. average distance between galaxies
    if larger: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
    if smaller: gravitational tug-of-wars would destabilize the sun's orbit
  15. density of galaxy cluster
    if denser: galaxy collisions and mergers would disrupt the sun's orbit
    if less dense: star formation late enough in the history of the universe would be hampered by lack of material
  16. average distance between stars
    if larger: heavy element density would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
    if smaller
    : planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
  17. fine structure constant (describing the fine-structure splitting of spectral lines) if larger: all stars would be at least 30% less massive than the sun
    if larger than 0.06: matter would be unstable in large magnetic fields
    if smaller: all stars would be at least 80% more massive than the sun
  18. decay rate of protons
    if greater: life would be exterminated by the release of radiation
    if smaller: universe would contain insufficient matter for life
  19. 12C to 16O nuclear energy level ratio
    if larger: universe would contain insufficient oxygen for life
    if smaller: universe would contain insufficient carbon for life
  20. ground state energy level for 4He
    if larger: universe would contain insufficient carbon and oxygen for life
    if smaller
    : same as above
  21. decay rate of 8Be
    if slower: heavy element fusion would generate catastrophic explosions in all the stars
    if faster: no element heavier than beryllium would form; thus, no life chemistry
  22. ratio of neutron mass to proton mass
    if higher: neutron decay would yield too few neutrons for the formation of many life-essential elements
    if lower: neutron decay would produce so many neutrons as to collapse all stars into neutron stars or black holes
  23. initial excess of nucleons over anti-nucleons
    if greater: radiation would prohibit planet formation
    if lesser: matter would be insufficient for galaxy or star formation
  24. polarity of the water molecule
    if greater: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too high for life
    if smaller: heat of fusion and vaporization would be too low for life; liquid water would not work as a solvent for life chemistry; ice would not float, and a runaway freeze-up would result
  25. supernovae eruptions
    if too close, too frequent, or too late: radiation would exterminate life on the planet
    if too distant, too infrequent, or too soon: heavy elements would be too sparse for rocky planets to form
  26. white dwarf binaries
    if too few: insufficient fluorine would exist for life chemistry
    if too many: planetary orbits would be too unstable for life
    if formed too soon: insufficient fluorine production
    if formed too late: fluorine would arrive too late for life chemistry
  27. ratio of exotic matter mass to ordinary matter mass
    if larger: universe would collapse before solar-type stars could form
    if smaller: no galaxies would form
  28. number of effective dimensions in the early universe
    if larger: quantum mechanics, gravity, and relativity could not coexist; thus, life would be impossible
    if smaller: same result
  29. number of effective dimensions in the present universe
    if smaller: electron, planet, and star orbits would become unstable
    if larger
    : same result
  30. mass of the neutrino
    if smaller: galaxy clusters, galaxies, and stars would not form
    if larger: galaxy clusters and galaxies would be too dense
  31. big bang ripples
    if smaller: galaxies would not form; universe would expand too rapidly
    if larger: galaxies/galaxy clusters would be too dense for life; black holes would dominate; universe would collapse before life-site could form
  32. size of the relativistic dilation factor
    if smaller: certain life-essential chemical reactions will not function properly
    if larger
    : same result
  33. uncertainty magnitude in the Heisenberg uncertainty principle
    if smaller: oxygen transport to body cells would be too small and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
    if larger: oxygen transport to body cells would be too great and certain life-essential elements would be unstable
  34. The cosmological constant
    if larger: universe would expand too quickly to form solar-type stars
 
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pshun2404

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Natural selection is an observation, not a theory. The theory is built around the observation. But I don't see how that relates to your earlier post. But never mind.

It was your logic I was disputing; the fact that we can live without them doesn't mean they're useless.

As it happens, the appendix is thought to function as a reservoir of gut bacteria in case of illnesses causing severe diarrhoea (if you don't have one, you're four times more likely to have recurrences after serious gut infection).

Key words - thought to - (however I do not doubt it is such a reservoir) and we know it has a function in processing chlorophyll...we need and use less so it is smaller....koala's process about 100 times more then a human (mostly from Eucalyptus) and their appendix is huge in comparison...however both issues prove it has a purpose fitted for the creature that possesses it (thus not vestigial)...there is no evidence to suggest ancient humans had much longer ones...
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Key words - thought to - (however I do not doubt it is such a reservoir) and we know it has a function in processing chlorophyll...we need and use less so it is smaller....koala's process about 100 times more then a human (mostly from Eucalyptus) and their appendix is huge in comparison...however both issues prove it has a purpose fitted for the creature that possesses it (thus not vestigial)...there is no evidence to suggest ancient humans had much longer ones...
The criterion for vestigiality of is not whether it has a current function, but whether the primary original or ancestral function is retained; if a new function or a secondary function has replaced the original or primary function, the structure is vestigial with respect to that function. In the case of the appendix, it seems likely that it is a vestigial form of a cecum that functioned as an aid to cellulose (not chlorophyll) digestion in a mainly or wholly herbivorous ancestor, which no longer has that digestive function, but does have a role in the immune system and as a reservoir of gut bacteria. Whether the original cecum was larger is not clear, as it now appears that a cecum need not necessarily be larger.
 
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Loudmouth

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No thats not true.

It is true. Imagine the unimaginable fine tuning it took in order for this exact feature to form on Mars:

pio_med.gif


Imagine the fine tuning it takes to get a 100+ year red eye-like storm on a gas giant that looks exactly like this:

jupiter_storms.gif


How is the universe any less tuned for those features than it is for life?
 
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Loudmouth

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Key words - thought to - (however I do not doubt it is such a reservoir) and we know it has a function in processing chlorophyll...we need and use less so it is smaller....koala's process about 100 times more then a human (mostly from Eucalyptus) and their appendix is huge in comparison...however both issues prove it has a purpose fitted for the creature that possesses it (thus not vestigial)...there is no evidence to suggest ancient humans had much longer ones...

Our appendix does not digest large amounts of cellulose as part of an herbivorous niche. It is vestigial.

Our coccyx and accompanying muscles (e.g. extensor coccyges) does not support and move a tail. It is vestigial.

A broken computer keyboard does not become unbroken the moment you use it as a paperweight. Finding rudimentary functions in vestigial features does not change their vestigial status.
 
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pshun2404

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Saturn is a gas giant, less dense than water - we don't know if it has a core, but there's water throughout its gas layers (see Water on Saturn - section 'Mystery Solved').

Thanks Frum that was really interesting....it does support what I said though and I suspect there are water molecules, steam, and even liquid water all through the Universe...and that points to the possibility that their is life elsewhere (but when I say life I do not mean simple chemical compounds and organic molecules).
 
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pshun2404

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The criterion for vestigiality of is not whether it has a current function, but whether the primary original or ancestral function is retained; if a new function or a secondary function has replaced the original or primary function, the structure is vestigial with respect to that function. In the case of the appendix, it seems likely that it is a vestigial form of a cecum that functioned as an aid to cellulose (not chlorophyll) digestion in a mainly or wholly herbivorous ancestor, which no longer has that digestive function, but does have a role in the immune system and as a reservoir of gut bacteria. Whether the original cecum was larger is not clear, as it now appears that a cecum need not necessarily be larger.

Your explanation is a secondary construct which was devised many many decades after the original claims were dismissed as the hogwash that they were. The original claims of organs and structures being vestigial referred to their

a) either being no longer functional in any essential or useful sense, or else
b) atrophied and smaller from lack of use or usefulness (like the unsupported and never onserved, demonstrtated, or test supported tail hypothesis for Humans)
c) and as Darwin assumed it could retain a secondary function or purpose still necessitated by the organism (which IMO is very plausible as the only alleged reason for vestigiality that makes sense...though not convinced nor have seen evidence to substantiate)

The Coccyx in the most ancient human remains are relative to moderns...the Pineal gland still retains its function (one of which is to process light that comes through pupil and shines on the frontal cortex)...the appendix IMO is in no wise a vestigial organ but if you can produce a few appendixes from early humans to compare we could at least have a structural basis for this unfounded hypothesis...even better we can know for sure if you can dig up a couple of still functioning prehistoric examples we can compare their functionality from then to their functionality now and know the truth...wisdom teeth (like having two sets of many regular teeth) are part of the bodies design to replace the lost molars and allow proper mastication in more mature people...(alas we now get to keep all our molars until older...see "the Nacirema" - and thus they tend to crowd instead and become impacted causing infections and more)...forget the body hair doo doo ther is simply no way to assume that unless one first assumes we were Ape-ish....
 
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