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Natural selection v Intelligent design

Phenotype

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That's fair enough. I dont think that science can prove Gods existence anymore than it can prove that man was once an unintelligent ape like beast. Science cannot possibly answer all mysteries and it never will.
Scientists use the scientific method. That is generically know as 'science.' In the philosophy of science, there is Methodological Naturalism and Philosophical Naturalism.

Observations are made, then inferences are made in the form of a working hypothesis. Using ingenuity, experiments are devised to rigorously test the hypothesis, since it is necessarily vulnerable to falsifiability. Falsifiability is actually the strength of the scientific method. Those theories and hypotheses that cannot be falsified, and are only ever verified become the accepted explanation, tentatively, since a better or more precise explanation may possibly become available in time with ongoing research into the natural world.

Science has no way of demonstrating, or of disproving the existence of God, the soul, angels or any 'spiritual' entity or such concept's actual existence, (and so one must remain technically agnostic.) These claims for supernatural entities and miracles, are necessarily accorded, by adherents, a special preserve outside empirical experience, which is the basis for all other substantive evidence about reality. The supernatural is a seductive idea for hundreds of millions of people today. They are fooled, superstitious, credulous. Their basis for claiming it true resides in mere faith. This is gullibility.

On this reading of scientific methodology, there are no 'mysteries,' ever beyond the province of empirical testable evidence. We most likely will never be able to develop the technology to conclusively know if the multiverse theory in cosmology is true or not, because of physical and time limitations which we exist within, and indeed require for very existence itself to obtain. But we can confidently aver that everything has a naturalistic explanation. It could be known. And sad that we probably can't empirically demonstrate that. Oh, well. Maybe cosmologists and particle physicists might work it out to the point of consensus on the matter. Don't trivialise science or scientists anymore. You may require medical science to save your life. I would hope not.

The as yet unknown nevertheless doesn't provide for or remain the preserve of God, the grasping god of the gaps argument. This god ever retreats into ever smaller pockets of scientific ignorance until he is ferreted out of there as well as everywhere else he has had to hastily vacate. Why does he have to try to hide from our investigations into reality, for a character so austere and Almighty? Rather capricious too. I guess that comes from being an only child. He gets into a little tanty. Look out. Just like Joseph Stalin really. And he sure can be callous and vengeful. A cosmic Brat. Loves blood sacrifice and utter obedience, especially concerning sex.

Science, has only ever been able to confirm Darwinian theory. Science has not 'proved man was once an unintelligent ape-like beast.' Modern 'man' is modern Homo sapiens. Before that, our ancestors were arcane Homo sapiens. Before that there were very gradual intermediate stages of hominid over a lineage of a probable 700 thousands of generations, possibly far more than that, from an 'ape like' or earlier primate common ancestor with the modern chimpanzee and the bonobo. The earlier the ancestors, the younger they would mature into adults. We have a long gestation period and time to puberty and ability to parent. We have evolved a far bigger brain. This is why giving birth is such a labour for a mother to go through, plus her lower back has been forced to modify for walking upright. The pelvis is now tilted.

Our closest cousins are the chimpanzee and the bonobo, with whom we share a common ancestor 5.3 million years ago. That ancestor would have looked rather like a modern chimp and a bonobo. Our ancestors were the ones who figuratively speaking only, 'said goodbye' and emerged out of the African forest into the savanna and beyond over the countless generations, thus splitting off from those that remained in the forest, to become a separate species.

Selection pressure and sexual selection ensured our species evolved the attributes to walk upright permanently, develop cognition and language and culture, including inventing religion.

Throw your creationist books in the trash. They are nothing to do with science. They are apologetics. They are poisonous. Utterly impoverished and delusional. Creationism and Christianity is all self referring, inward looking, bent on self verification, "The Bible because, the Bible."

Science, reason and scholarship are outward looking, are genuinely investigative. Science works.

Wherever else there is life in this super Vast universe of 100 billion galaxies each having on average 100 billion stars, it will be the result of evolution by natural selection, Darwinism, upon naturally reactive chemistry created in a supernova event by atomic fusion. Ejecta from this exploding star got caught in orbit around a neighbouring star to form a planet friendly to life, whence naturally reactive chemistry eventuated in the first self replicating macro molecule, life. How stupefyingly awesome and beautiful. And all those fascinating species striving to make a living, survive and reproduce.

I encourage you to read this through closely,

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Methodological_naturalism

Then this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee–human_last_common_ancestor

Then start reading Richard Dawkins.
 
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Phenotype

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No Frum, it is because I would never have assumed it, or stopped my meds...it is because He told me to...that's definitely outside what YOU would call thew natural order (I see it as quite natural)...of course some conditions go into remission because this wonderfully and fearfully made body can and does on many occasions win the battle against illness...but this was not a natural occurrence in the sense you would describe.
I knew a guy whom God told to flush his insulin down the toilet. He died.

Another bloke I lived with, God told him to stop taking his bipolar disorder medication. He completely shut down with totally disabling depression. Sad to watch.

If I knew then what I know now...
 
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stevevw

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It is true. Imagine the unimaginable fine tuning it took in order for this exact feature to form on Mars:
Yes and from another angle you suddenly lose all that fine tuning. Get to close and its like its not even what you thought it was finely tuned for in the first place. Thats because the face isn't what it seems. They have focused in on it and it only looks like a face at that particular distance with light and shadows. In other words its an illusion which is not what the specifically finely tuned constants are. But if there were 100s of those very same faces all over Mars then I would be starting to say something is crafting these images to look so identical and its not the product of a random process. Thats the level they put on the finely tuned universe for life.

pio_med.gif


Imagine the fine tuning it takes to get a 100+ year red eye-like storm on a gas giant that looks exactly like this:
jupiter_storms.gif


How is the universe any less tuned for those features than it is for life?
There is no fine tuning as its just weather patterns which change all the time. This one just happens to be bigger and is hanging around for longer but it still works to the same principles. A storm may be formed in one place or may form somewhere else. The 3 smaller storms below it will disappear and another lot will appear elsewhere. Another storm or weather pattern on another planet may be different again.

But when it comes to why the earths climate and atmosphere is just so right for us to breath and function is another thing. Why on earth and not on Mars or Venus. Why out of all the different patterns in the unlimited universe is there one just so right for us. But add that to all the other finely tuned parameters that are just so right for us and just so right for the planet. Then add all the other planets and their satellites and stars and everything else to be in the right place just to ensure that our little planet is just so right for life is amazing when you think about it.

If a parameter or two or 10 is out for the kinds of patterns that cause that massive storm on Jupiter then I'm sure it doesn't matter. Because another one just as fierce but different will take its place. Another one similar to that will form somewhere else again and again. But to get the type of atmosphere we have for life takes a very specific set of conditions that dont happen very much in the universe. In fact so far we are the only place in a massively big universe.
 
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pshun2404

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What we define as water is H2O in its liquid state (not its elemental state as random molecules or in its gaseous state) and often it has other elements within it (pure liquid H2O being rare in nature). Now I have no doubt there is water all throughout the Universe but “liquid” is not always water since it is merely a state of matter in general.

So how did these Hubble scientists discover the liquid on Ganymede is actually H2O? I could not find any papers describing their method or upon what basis they drew their conclusion….
 
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Loudmouth

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Your explanation is a secondary construct which was devised many many decades after the original claims were dismissed as the hogwash that they were. The original claims of organs and structures being vestigial referred to their

a) either being no longer functional in any essential or useful sense, or else
b) atrophied and smaller from lack of use or usefulness (like the unsupported and never onserved, demonstrtated, or test supported tail hypothesis for Humans)
c) and as Darwin assumed it could retain a secondary function or purpose still necessitated by the organism (which IMO is very plausible as the only alleged reason for vestigiality that makes sense...though not convinced nor have seen evidence to substantiate)

If a broken computer keyboard can be used as a paperweight, is it no longer broken?
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes and from another angle you suddenly lose all that fine tuning.

The angle is included in the fine tuning. Imagine the fine tuning it required so that the face only appears from one angle.

Get to close and its like its not even what you thought it was finely tuned for in the first place.

Also part of the fine tuning. Imagine the fine tuning it takes so that the face only appears at certain distances.

jupiter_storms.gif



There is no fine tuning as its just weather patterns which change all the time.

It takes incredible fine tuning to get a storm that looks exactly like that.

But if you want to play that game, then there is no fine tuning with life which is just chemical reactions that change all the time.

But when it comes to why the earths climate and atmosphere is just so right for us to breath and function is another thing.

Jupiter's atmosphere is equally fine tuned for the red spot.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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...“liquid” is not always water since it is merely a state of matter in general.
Er, right...

So how did these Hubble scientists discover the liquid on Ganymede is actually H2O?
No direct evidence, they haven't sampled it, but there's evidence of large liquid flows on the surface; I know of three specific indicators of water - the Galileo spacecraft observed unexpected magnetic readings on its close approaches, which are consistent with a lot of salty water; there are spectroscopic indications of salt minerals on the surface around crustal fissures, typical of the evaporation of brine; The latest, confirmatory observation - a large, electrically conductive, salt-water ocean has the effect of stabilising the aurorae, and Hubble has observed this stabilisation on Ganymede - it may seem abstruse, but apparently it's diagnostic.
 
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pshun2404

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Er, right...

No direct evidence, they haven't sampled it, but there's evidence of large liquid flows on the surface; I know of three specific indicators of water - the Galileo spacecraft observed unexpected magnetic readings on its close approaches, which are consistent with a lot of salty water; there are spectroscopic indications of salt minerals on the surface around crustal fissures, typical of the evaporation of brine; The latest, confirmatory observation - a large, electrically conductive, salt-water ocean has the effect of stabilising the aurorae, and Hubble has observed this stabilisation on Ganymede - it may seem abstruse, but apparently it's diagnostic.

Good, thanks...not really any evidence yet but it seems to indicate it having been or being present...
 
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stevevw

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The angle is included in the fine tuning. Imagine the fine tuning it required so that the face only appears from one angle.

Also part of the fine tuning. Imagine the fine tuning it takes so that the face only appears at certain distances.

It takes incredible fine tuning to get a storm that looks exactly like that.

But if you want to play that game, then there is no fine tuning with life which is just chemical reactions that change all the time.

Jupiter's atmosphere is equally fine tuned for the red spot.
Its all about the large amounts of parameters that are being met that are so specific that make fine tuning of life so impressive. You can find some things that will have a few components of tuning to them and no one is disputing that. Its when it gets to the point where you begin to question whether it happen by accident/naturalistic processes or there was an intervention of some design and intelligence. I would say your examples dont meet the criteria for specific design as it has little specificity and more variables like most things that stem from a naturalistic mechanism.

We are not just talking about the particular face shape or particular storm in the ones on Mars. We are talking about shapes or climatic events in nature in general. We can make out figures in clouds or landscapes and any of these can have the same significance you want to place of the face on mars. Because the face on Mars looks like it does only states some fine tuning within a bigger criteria which is not so fine tuned and therefore isn't as significant.

We know why these things happen and we understand that though we may see different shapes in natural surroundings we know its the result of processes that can happen anywhere in the universe including earth. In fact in some ways the big red spot on Jupiter is basically a hurricane or cyclone for which earth has many as well. What would be more significant and meet the level of fine tuning for life on earth is if either the face on mars was a real face that showed intelligent crafting or that storms in general only happened on mars and nowhere else in the universe.
 
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stevevw

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Has Steve addressed my question about how he discerns "finely tuned" from "an extremely rare yet inevitable outcome"?
Cant find the original post. So can you give me an example of extremely rare and inevitable outcome. But I think you miss the point of the reason why the finely tuned universe for life is so impressive. Even if you want to call it an extremely rare event it still has to many things working together to say that it is just coincidence. Its the fact that so many things have to be so exact and cannot be altered to much that make it so finely tuned. So many that it goes beyond the odds of luck, chance, rarity, coincidence ect. So many that it points to there being some meddling involved that had to make it that precise.

By the way this isn't a religious or ID argument. This is something the scientists themselves have stated on many occasions and in different ways. They are also impressed and cannot work it out though some want to explain it away. One of the explanations that is partly used for this is the idea of a multiverse. By saying that there are millions and millions of other dimensions that can have different constants that produce different outcomes it makes our finely tuned one not so special. But it seems a mighty long way to go just to explain away how our universe so so right for us.
 
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Foxhole87

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Cant find the original post.
I wish I had the resources for a lengthy reply, but Steve doesn't understand that water is not sufficient for life, despite his attempts to convince all of us that he's more credible on biology and chemistry and the actual experts on the topic.

"Water is not sufficient for life" means a drop of water does not contain life because it is one of the things needed for life. If one of those other things is absent, it doesn't produce life in any way that we know of.

ALSO:

Steve, how do you go about functionally discerning "finely tuned" from "a tremendously rare but inevitable outcome given the scale of a galaxy"?
So can you give me an example of extremely rare and inevitable outcome.
Winning the lottery. Suppose that a sufficient number of players each purchase one ticket and by way of distributing the tickets, every possible combination has been accounted for. Should the hundreds of millions of non-winners rush the stage to apprehend the cabal of scheming lottery attendants for finely tuning the outcome of the lottery when the winner is announced?

Or, if gambling isn't your thing: imagine a string of 150 numbers, 0-9. In the digits following the decimal in Pi, I can find exactly that string of 150 numbers. Surely, you won't try to convince us that Pi was finely tuned to hold precisely your string of 150 numbers. Or maybe you will, and I'll have another sip of turpentine.
But I think you miss the point of the reason why the finely tuned universe for life is so impressive.
You don't get to go on a tirade expressing how "fine-tuned" things are. If the universe is fine-tuned for life, we would expect to find it readily. Our lottery winner's ticket wasn't "fine-tuned" to secure the jackpot.
Even if you want to call it an extremely rare event it still has to many things working together to say that it is just coincidence.
No, it being a rare event counts on all of those things working together. You don't to look back and marvel at a rare outcome and work backwards to figure out how some supernatural hand guided all of those unlikely events to line up accordingly.
Its the fact that so many things have to be so exact and cannot be altered to much that make it so finely tuned. So many that it goes beyond the odds of luck, chance, rarity, coincidence ect.
Says... who? Says you? Says a handful of academically irrelevant and substantially bankrupt cdesign proponentsists?
So many that it points to there being some meddling involved that had to make it that precise.
"I don't know how this could have come together by way of odds of luck, chance, rarity, coincidence, etc.; therefore, there must have been an outside intelligent force." This is the full-bodied apparition of an argument from ignorance. "I don't know, therefore...".
By the way this isn't a religious or ID argument.
Ah, so you've hit the next level in handing out demotions: First, it was God The Almighty Creator, and then it becomes The Intelligent Designer, and now it is just the "Meddler".
This is something the scientists themselves have stated on many occasions and in different ways.
We've seen you try and substantiate that claim, and you've failed every single time. I've been watching the thread long enough to catch onto what you've been doing.
They are also impressed and cannot work it out though some want to explain it away.
That's the point of science: provide good explanations.
One of the explanations that is partly used for this is the idea of a multiverse.
I'm perfectly content with settling on a single universe (which hates us more than it could bear to keep us alive) with billions of planets in this galaxy alone with one happening to produce life by way of chemistry.
By saying that there are millions and millions of other dimensions that can have different constants that produce different outcomes it makes our finely tuned one not so special.
You're getting ahead of yourself: You haven't actually demonstrated that the universe is finely tuned for anything.
But it seems a mighty long way to go just to explain away how our universe so so right for us.
So you invoke the infinitely more complex intelligent designer, ahem, "meddler"? You're a puddle that wakes up one morning and says "good thing this pothole is exactly as deep and as wide and is the shape it is, or else I wouldn't exist!"

But please stop talking about a system being "finely tuned" until you address how you discern something that is finely tuned (particularly on the scale you keep using: a single planet within the entire expanse of space so far as we have peered with various telescopes) from an outcome that is tremendously rare yet inevitable.
 
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KCfromNC

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pshun2404

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I had already read this...the presence of water molecules does not equal liquid water...the fountains contain many other elements detrimental to life. For an easily testable example we can see that Sulfur Dioxide, H2O, and SO42 ions can exist in solution in a vacuum, but then when exposed to OUR atmosphere quickly evolve into pure sulfuric acid...just because water molecules are present this does not mean the same thing as confirming liquid water is present (in the sense the unsuspecting public or a student would suppose was implied)

We really must stop telling the story and only report the actual data...let the actual evidence form the conclusion and not let the desired conclusion interpret the data (and this from one who believes their is liquid water elsewhere)
 
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Foxhole87

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I had already read this...the presence of water molecules does not equal liquid water...the fountains contain many other elements detrimental to life. For an easily testable example we can see that Sulfur Dioxide, H2O, and SO42 ions can exist in solution in a vacuum, but then when exposed to OUR atmosphere quickly evolve into pure sulfuric acid...just because water molecules are present this does not mean the same thing as confirming liquid water is present (in the sense the unsuspecting public or a student would suppose was implied)

We really must stop telling the story and only report the actual data...let the actual evidence form the conclusion and not let the desired conclusion interpret the data (and this from one who believes their is liquid water elsewhere)
All models of creationist pickup trucks come equipped with a trailer hitch for moving goalposts.

Water is one of the most common molecules in the universe. It exists in a variety of forms for a variety of reasons, and Steve apparently only thinks of "water" meaning "the stuff that comes out of your faucet". The wikipedia entry on pyschrophiles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrophile) is an example of life existing where liquid water would be scarce or not available and even adapted a way to create a sort of "anti-freeze" so that its internal functions can continue despite living in ice. Clearly, "liquid aiche two oh" isn't the only way to get life rolling along.
 
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