Naïve question: What is forbidden, what is allowed?

[ephraimanesti]

Greetings.

Please excuse this naïve question.

Apart from the ten commandments - what is allowed
and what is forbidden?
If god is constantly watching and all wrongdoing is
noted and written down - it must be of utmost
importance to know what is allowed and what is
forbidden, in other words:

What pleases god - and what doesn't?

Take for example music. What kind of music pleases
god and what kind leads to hell?

MY DEAR FRIEND,

Jesus condensed all the do'es and don't of the Old Testament Law down to into two basic Laws--"Love the the Lord your God with ALL your soul, with ALL your mind, and with ALL your strength" and "Love your neighbor as yourself."

St. Augustine, condensed all "laws" down further by stating, "LOVE, and do what you will." To Christians, this is known as "The Law of Perfect Freedom." a Truly Loving thought, feeling, word, or deed can NEVER prove sinful--reason being that "God IS Love."

abba's slave,
ephraim

 

[hedrick]

I consider the Sermon on the Mount as the best summary of Jesus' ethics. Mat 5 and the next couple of chapters. That's not to make light of guidance on specific questions from Paul and later Christian experience.

 

[Pink Spider]

Thank you, Ephraim! Thank you Hedrick!

 

[food4thought]

So - accepting Jesus, pray to him, repent and
try (as hard as we can) to be like him takes the
sins away?

It's a bit more complicated than that from a theological and doctrinal perspective, but I'd say that's pretty close. I would add that although we ARE called to try as hard as we can, God promises to recreate your "heart" (the center of your real self) by living within you through the Holy Spirit. This means that we will have God's help to live as He wants us to.

Are greed, selfishness etc. 'false gods'?

I think those things could be false god's if they become the most important and central thing in our lives, but they are also things that harm ourselves and others.

Are those musicians/bands sort of 'tools of Satan'

to lead Christians astray?

Maybe... but then again maybe they're just lost, angry, sad, ungodly people writing lyrics that reflect that. My guess is that there are some bands/people in the music industry that are influenced by demons, but to say they all are is overstating the case. Even some of the self declared Satanist bands are probably just play-acting to make money... but who really knows for sure?

Does pre-knowledge necessarily imply pre-

determination and the impossibility of free
will?

I hope you don't mind if I answer this question as well... it is a really deep, controversial question, and you will probably get different answers from different Christians. I will try to give an answer without taking half an hour to define things like free will, predestination, sovereignty, etc... but just know that how these terms are defined greatly affects the position people take on this.

Instead of delving deeply into theology, philosophy, and science on this, I prefer to start by using this simple analogy to help us wrap our head around the main problem:

Ok... Imagine for a moment that you can see the future. You also happen to be a computer programmer and decide to design a program which creates a 3D environment with a line that starts at a certain point and extends progressively in one direction. All throughout the environment there are points that the line cannot pass through. You design the program so that the line changes direction randomly whenever it hits one of these points.

Now here is the issue... because you can see the future, before you ever created the program you knew EXACTLY which direction the line would turn every time it hit a point, but you specifically designed the program so that the line would change direction RANDOMLY. The fact that you see the future does not change the fact that the line did indeed change direction randomly according to the program's design. In a similar way, the fact that God knew every decision you would make before He ever created the universe does not negate the fact that He designed you with the capacity to choose... you still have to make decisions.

Head spinning yet? My belief is that both predestination and free will are true and real. The reason we perceive a contradiction is because we can't really wrap our minds around the concept of an all-knowing, eternal Creator. In the Bible it is made clear that God has foreknowledge of everything, but it is also made clear that He commands us to make choices that have tremendous consequences, which strongly implies that we have the ability to make those choices... unless you want to believe that God is playing with us like toys. I don't believe that, and that most definitely does not reflect the nature and character of the God of the Bible.

Hope this helps;

Mike

EDIT----------------------------------

Forgot to make the most important point on that last answer. The Bible says that "God is love", and it also tells us that God wants us to love Him and each other. Without freedom, there can be no love. A doll will say "I love you" when you pull it's string, but there is no way that the doll can be said to truly love you... it is simply an automaton. Any "being" without the freedom to choose is nothing more than a highly complex version of that doll. We are capable of loving, therefore we are much more than that doll.

 

[Pink Spider]

Head spinning yet? My belief is that both predestination and free will are true and real.

Predestination is scientifically called
causal determinism. There are two
kinds:

a) hard determinism - free will is impossible
b) soft determinism - which allows the concept
of free will to be possible while many (if not most)
things are determined.

Pierre-Simon Laplace was one of the first
to discuss the concept.

See: Laplace and determinism

I myself (mainly because of the results of
chaos theory) support b)

Without freedom, there can be no love. A doll will
say "I love you" when you pull it's string, but there
is no way that the doll can be said to truly love
you... it is simply an automaton. Any "being" without
the freedom to choose is nothing more than a highly
complex version of that doll. We are capable of
loving, therefore we are much more than that doll.

I agree!

 

[grasping the after wind]

I understand.


But there are righteous Christians who constantly
threaten people with eternal torment and hellfire.

They are very 'holy' and tell me (for example)
that I will go straight go to hell - if I listen to
Marilyn Manson - go figure...

According to Jesus, no one is good (righteous ) but God alone. Though there are Christians that seem to take pleasure in threatening others with eternal torment and hellfire, I would say the vast majority are not of that ilk. If a Christian is telling you that they are safe from those things because they are righteous, they most likely do not understand the basic tenets of their own religion. I know of no reputable Christian theologian, scholar, official or expert of any kind on the Bible that makes the claim that being righteous leads to salvation. No one is saved because of their own righteousness
.

Does pre-knowledge necessarily imply pre-
determination and the impossibility of free
will?

Not necessarily, in my opinion but that opinion is not a consensus one within Christianity. There are vast numbers of Christians on both sides of that issue. Of course one must define free will first to get a good understanding of what a person believes in this area. There are several threads on the subject here if you would like to explore that further.

 

[ephraimanesti]

"Thus saith The LORD ..." verses in Jeremiah

13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots ?
then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Think about this, If we have as much chance of doing GOOD as a leopard changing its spots, and an Ethiopian his skin ! Pray tell where is the "free will" in this statement of God's ? go figar

MY FRIEND,

ALL PRAISE TO OUR LORD, GOD, AND SAVIOR JESUS THE CHRIST that, thanks to His sacrificial work on the Cross, there is a new race of human beings walking the earth--righteous sinners. Me, for example--and, of course, millions of others over the last 2000 years or so. Ain't God Good?!

ABBA'S slave,
ephraim

 

[Harry3142]

Pink Spider-

Christianity lays stress on our having the correct motivations as the impetus for our actions. Here's a passage that tells us which motivations we are to steer clear of, and which we are to embrace:

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the knigdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

The motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' are those which we identify as the origin of all sinful acts. Even if the action has the veneer of being pious, if any of the motivations in this list is its impetus, we must see it as sinful. I compare it to a poisoned tree: just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, not action which has any of these motivations at its root can bee seen as righteous.

It is only when our actions have as their root the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' that we Christians have assurance of their conforming to what God wants of us. Just as the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' are seen by us as the impetus for sinful acts, the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are seen by us as the impetus for righteous acts. Their importance to our behaving ourselves properly is underscored by the words which immediately follow their listing: "Against such things there is no law."

I hope this helps you understand Christianity a little better. God bless-

 

[Pink Spider]

staff edit

At first glance this is a very depressing statement.

But:

1. Its from the OT and therefore addressed to Gods
chosen people, the Jewish people.
(I know that this argument is very weak)

2. If I were a Christian - I would argue: Christ came
to this world in order to give even those a chance
who are 'accustomed to do evil'.
After all - he hang out with tax-collectors and
prostitutes and all kind of sinners - no?

3. In order to get 'accustomed to do evil' one must
'start' with evil-doing in the first place. And that
may or may not happen out of free will.
Some are 'forced' to do evil: I don't know whether
you ever experienced hunger to a point rapidly
closing in on starvation.

I can tell you that you will do any kind of sin for a
little food...

Think about it.

4. The hypothesis of hard determinism may well hold -
but if it does - we can forget everything.
Then we're puppets on a string, utterly non-
responsible for our actions, forever trapped in a
cosmic joke.

 

[Pink Spider]

Though there are Christians that seem to take pleasure in threatening others with eternal torment and hellfire, I would say the vast majority are not of that ilk.

Yes there are. I even once heard one dude in a
video say that those in heaven are watching the
people in hell being tormented...

If a Christian is telling you that they are safe from those things because they
are righteous, they most likely do not understand the basic tenets of their own religion. [...] No one is saved because of their own righteousness

Yes, I hope so.

Not necessarily, in my opinion but that opinion is not a consensus one within Christianity. There are vast numbers of Christians on both sides of that issue. Of course one must define free will first to get a good understanding of what a person believes in this area.

Yes - I get the impression that there are many
different opinions about how to reconcile free
will with determinism.

There are several threads on the subject here if you would like to explore that further.

Alas - at least to my knowledge - those threads are
all in the 'for Christians only' parts of CF.

 

[Pink Spider]

MY FRIEND,

ALL PRAISE TO OUR LORD, GOD, AND SAVIOR JESUS THE CHRIST that, thanks to His sacrificial work on the Cross, there is a new race of human beings walking the earth--righteous sinners. Me, for example--and, of course, millions of others over the last 2000 years or so. Ain't God Good?!

ABBA'S slave,
ephraim

Please forgive me - but I don't fully understand
what you mean...

No offense intended!

 

[Pink Spider]

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the knigdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (Galatians 5:16-26,NIV)

Thank you! I will bookmark these verses and
check my KJV later.

When I check the lists of acts of the sinful nature
I must unfortunately confess that I do have a
sinful nature...

I compare it to a poisoned tree: just as a poisoned tree cannot yield good fruit, not action which has any of these motivations at its root can bee seen as righteous.

Yes - I reckon that's a way to put it.

It is only when our actions have as their root the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' that we Christians have assurance of their conforming to what God wants of us. Just as the motivations listed as 'the acts of the sinful nature' are seen by us as the impetus for sinful acts, the motivations listed as 'the fruit of the Spirit' are seen by us as the impetus for righteous acts. Their importance to our behaving ourselves properly is underscored by the words which immediately follow their listing: "Against such things there is no law."

I think I understand.

I hope this helps you understand Christianity a little better. God bless-

Yes! Thank you, Harry!

 

[ephraimanesti]

Please forgive me - but I don't fully understand
what you mean...

No offense intended!

MY FRIEND,

No offense taken--you have been delightfully polite throughout!

As Romans 8:10,11 states, "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

ABBA'S SLAVE,
ephraim

 

[food4thought]

Predestination is scientifically called
causal determinism. There are two
kinds:

a) hard determinism - free will is impossible
b) soft determinism - which allows the concept
of free will to be possible while many (if not most)
things are determined.

Pierre-Simon Laplace was one of the first
to discuss the concept.

See: Laplace and determinism

I myself (mainly because of the results of
chaos theory) support b)

Do you think it is possible for things to exist outside our physical universe, and thus not be subject to it's physical laws?

 

[Pink Spider]

As Romans 8:10,11 states, "If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the Spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you."

Thank you, Ephraim - now I think I understand what
you meant.

 

[Pink Spider]

Do you think it is possible for things to exist outside our physical universe, and thus not be subject to it's physical laws?

1. Quantum theory does suggest that certain effects
observed could be explained by the fact that there
are other universes, different from ours, possibly very
many universes (multiverse).


But that's not what you mean, is it?


2. Those 'things' of whom you speak - would there
be matter/energy involved?


3. To answer your question: We know too little - so I
can not disregard the possibility. We cannot observe
anything outside our own universe - because
ultimately we are bound to our own space-time
continuum and part of it.


Good question though!

 

[bling]

But many say so. And there is always judgment day -
and those who were good and obeyed all laws, their
names are written in the book of life - the rest will be
cast into the sea of fire and suffer for all eternity...

“Judgment Day” is not some “trial”, you have determined the outcome with your choices made while here on earth. It is more like an Award’s Assembly, nothing to fear about it.

Remember I talked about getting to know Christ, who is just like God here on earth? If Christ is the kind of person you would like to hang with and become like, then heaven is for you and God wants you there, but if you prefer love and be loved for how it makes you feel over the concern for how others might feel, then you would not be happy in heaven. Those that do not go to heaven would not be happy surrounded by unselfish/unconditional Love (they like a selfish type love only).

Does God know what I really want?

God knows what you really want better than you know. You may have to think about it (come to your senses) see where you are and where you are going if you do not change, so would you like to change? I am not saying you can change on your own, but just would you like to change?

Jesus is God, right? He said:
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I
came not to send peace, but a sword." (Matthew
10:34)

As much as I like Jesus and what he said and did -
he is also God and God or some angels are
constantly writing everything I do into a book and
come judgment day God or the angels will check
whether my name is in the book of life - if not it's the
fiery pit...

Anyone bringing a radical change can expect big time conflict. The “sword” is a Spiritual Sword, that is the “word” (sharper than any two edged sword). People do not like it when you point out their short comings by just being an example of the contrast in front of them. Jesus confronted people not with specific words directed at them individually, but by being a righteous contrast to their behavior. Christians do not want to “hurt” other people, but even the unspoken truth cuts deep into the sinners life.

As a non-Christian you should have a respectable concern for hell, but do not linger on the stuff you will not be “allowed” to do or it will be a unrealistic burning desire inside of you. Start seeing all the wonderful things you could do with the help of the Holy Spirit living in you.

 

[Pink Spider]

“Judgment Day” is not some “trial”, you have determined the outcome with your choices made while here on earth. It is more like an Award’s Assembly, nothing to fear about it.

Nothing to fear? But what about the fiery pit
and eternal torment?

Remember I talked about getting to know Christ, who is just like God here on earth?

Christ is God, no?

If Christ is the kind of person you would like to hang with and become like, then heaven is for you and God wants you there, but if you prefer love and be loved for how it makes you feel over the concern for how others might feel, then you would not be happy in heaven. Those that do not go to heaven would not be happy surrounded by unselfish/unconditional Love (they like a selfish type love only).

Please forgive me - but I am not sure...

God knows what you really want better than you know. You may have to think about it (come to your senses) see where you are and where you are going if you do not change, so would you like to change? I am not saying you can change on your own, but just would you like to change?

Yes, I do want to change.

Anyone bringing a radical change can expect big time conflict. The “sword” is a Spiritual Sword, that is the “word” (sharper than any two edged sword). People do not like it when you point out their short comings by just being an example of the contrast in front of them. Jesus confronted people not with specific words directed at them individually, but by being a righteous contrast to their behavior. Christians do not want to “hurt” other people, but even the unspoken truth cuts deep into the sinners life.

I think I understand.

Start seeing all the wonderful things you could do with the help of the Holy Spirit living in you.

Can you give me an example of those
'wonderful things'?

 

[food4thought]

1. Quantum theory does suggest that certain effects observed could be explained by the fact that there are other universes, different from ours, possibly very many universes (multiverse).

Yes I have heard of the multiverse theory, although I thought it was string theory that suggested it... perhaps quantum theory suggested it first and string theorists picked up on that? I would not assume that our universe is the only one God ever has or ever will create.

But that's not what you mean, is it?

No, not really.

2. Those 'things' of whom you speak - would there

be matter/energy involved?

Perhaps, but when we speak of "matter" and "energy" we are formulating our understanding of what those words mean based upon conditions in this universe...

3. To answer your question: We know too little - so I

can not disregard the possibility. We cannot observe anything outside our own universe - because ultimately we are bound to our own space-time
continuum and part of it.

Yes, this is a good answer. You would be surprised how many people suppose that the universe is all there is and ever was or ever will be. From the perspective of the physical sciences, the universe may be all we can observe, but that does not preclude the existence of things we cannot observe.

This leads me to briefly comment on the limitations of science. Empirical science is limited to what it can observe and test. When scientists make statements and/or assumptions about what can't be observed and tested, they leave the realm of empirical science and enter the realm of educated (hopefully) speculation... these statements and assumptions should not be held with the same measure of confidence as conclusions reached from empirical study, but they often are.

Good question though!

Thank you! Your questions were good and insightful as well.

 

[Pink Spider]

Yes I have heard of the multiverse theory, although I thought it was string theory that suggested it... perhaps quantum theory suggested it first and string theorists picked up on that? I would not assume that our universe is the only one God ever has or ever will create.

Good answer!

Perhaps, but when we speak of "matter" and "energy" we are formulating our understanding of what those words mean based upon conditions in this universe...

Do you think of God as a person? When he came to
this earth (Jesus=God) he was, yes?

But the creator of the universe can IMO not be a
person in the usual sense in spite of what Genesis
1:24 says:

'So God created man in his own image, in the image
of God created he him; male and female created he
them[...]'

Yes, this is a good answer. You would be surprised how many people suppose that the universe is all there is and ever was or ever will be.[...]

Yes, I know: The fallacy of Anthropocentrism...

From the perspective of the physical sciences, the universe may be all we can observe, but that does not preclude the existence of things we cannot observe.

This leads me to briefly comment on the limitations of science. Empirical science is limited to what it can observe and test. When scientists make statements and/or assumptions about what can't be observed and tested, they leave the realm of empirical science and enter the realm of educated (hopefully) speculation... these statements and assumptions should not be held with the same measure of confidence as conclusions reached from empirical study, but they often are.

I agree, well put!