Naïve question: What is forbidden, what is allowed?

[grasping the after wind]

Nothing to fear? But what about the fiery pit
and eternal torment?

Nothing to fear in the fiery pit and no fear of eternal torment. Here is the wonderful thing about the fiery pit and eternal torment. If one has faith in Christ, one will never see the fiery pit or endure eternal torment. (BTW not all Christians think that there will be eternal torment and some believe the fiery pit that is referred to in the Bible was the place in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. But those theories are not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the theory that Hell is a physical place with physical pain that goes on eternally. ). On the other hand, if one does not have faith in Christ one most likely does not believe in a Hell with eternal torment. So either way there is nothing to fear from the fiery pit or eternal torment . The Christian should fear nothing but God and that fear ought to be more akin to respect than it is to being frightened. The Bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Wise men do not stop at the beginning but press on toward the end. When it comes even to mere things that are powerful we start with the fear that they have the ability to do us harm that is the beginning of our wisdom concerning those things but if we were to stop there with fear and nothing more look what we would have missed in terms of fire or electricity or any number of other dangerously powerful things that we have been able to gain further wisdom about and which by that wisdom we have profited greatly. Though God is infinity greater than those things the principle is the same in that fear is only the beginning of wisdom not the totality of it.

 

[food4thought]

Do you think of God as a person? When he came to this earth (Jesus=God) he was, yes?

But the creator of the universe can IMO not be a
person in the usual sense in spite of what Genesis
1:24 says:

'So God created man in his own image, in the image
of God created he him; male and female created he
them[...]'

How would you define "person"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that middle sentence... are you saying that the Creator may or may not be a person, or that you don't think it is possible for Him to be a person?

Yes, I know: The fallacy of Anthropocentrism...

The Wikipedia article on anthropocentrism opens with this definition:

Anthropocentrism is the position that human beings are the central or most significant species on the planet, or the assessment of reality through an exclusively human perspective.

I'm thinking you have the bolded part of the definition in mind, and I guess this could be a fairly accurate assessment. On a side note, I do believe that human beings are the most significant species on the planet for a number of reasons, the most important one is that we are the only species created in the "image" of God, as you quoted above. I guess that means that technically I am guilty of a fallacy?!?

Anyway, I was thinking the fallacy was more along the lines of mistaking their ignorance for knowledge ... is there an official name for that kind of fallacy?

 

[Pink Spider]

Nothing to fear in the fiery pit and no fear of eternal torment. Here is the wonderful thing about the fiery pit and eternal torment. If one has faith in Christ, one will never see the fiery pit or endure eternal torment. (BTW not all Christians think that there will be eternal torment and some believe the fiery pit that is referred to in the Bible was the place in Jerusalem where the garbage was burned. But those theories are not what we are talking about here. We are talking about the theory that Hell is a physical place with physical pain that goes on eternally. ).

Well - the KJV translates both 'Ge hinnom' (Hebrew)
/'Gehenna' (Greek) and 'Sheol' (Hebrew)/'Hades' (Greek) to 'hell'.

Even an ignorant atheist like me can see that
there is something 'wrong' about the whole
'business'.

'Sheol' means "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead".
The translation to Greek as 'Hades' adds a lot of
Greek mythology to the original meaning
IMHO. (like the Ferryman, Kerberos, Orpheus etc.)

And then the translation of 'Hades' to 'Hell' finally
establishes the Christian concept of 'Hell' although
neither 'Sheol' nor 'Hades' (in their original meaning)
refer to a place of everlasting torment.

***​

As to "Gehenna"/"Ge Hinnom" - that refers to the
"Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump
outside of Jerusalem.

It was a place where people burned their garbage
and thus there was always a fire burning there.
Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without
hope for salvation (such as people who committed
suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.[

On the other hand, if one does not have faith in Christ one most likely does not believe in a Hell with eternal torment. So either way there is nothing to fear from the fiery pit or eternal torment .

How come? One can (seriously) doubt the concept
of an almighty creator - and still be afraid of 'hell'.

The Christian should fear nothing but God and that fear ought to be more akin to respect than it is to being frightened. The Bible says the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

In case he does exist - I certainly fear him after all
what I have read in the OT...

Wise men do not stop at the beginning but press on toward the end. When it comes even to mere things that are powerful we start with the fear that they have the ability to do us harm that is the beginning of our wisdom concerning those things but if we were to stop there with fear and nothing more look what we would have missed in terms of fire or electricity or any number of other dangerously powerful things that we have been able to gain further wisdom about and which by that wisdom we have profited greatly.

Like the atom bomb for example, yes?

 

[Pink Spider]

How would you define "person"? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that middle sentence... are you saying that the Creator may or may not be a person, or that you don't think it is possible for Him to be a person?

I am not talking about Jesus (i.e. God as he
'incarnated' on planet earth).

1. A person is finite.
2. A person consists of matter/energy.
3. A person has self-consciousness.

(...yes: Dolphins and some of the great apes are IMO
persons!)

from 1. follows (via brute force - I admit) that a
person can not be all knowing and all controlling -
because he/she/it is finite.

The Wikipedia article on anthropocentrism opens with this definition:

Anthropocentrism is the position that human beings are the central or most significant species on the planet, or the assessment of reality through an exclusively human perspective.

I'm thinking you have the bolded part of the definition in mind, and I guess this could be a fairly accurate assessment.

I had both parts of the definition in mind.

On a side note, I do believe that human beings are the most significant species on the planet for a number of reasons, the most important one is that we are the only species created in the "image" of God, as you quoted above. I guess that means that technically I am guilty of a fallacy?!?

Everybody is 'guilty' of that fallacy - because man
(as well as other intelligences) inevitably judges
the perceived reality from his kind of view to a
greater or lesser degree.

Anyway, I was thinking the fallacy was more along the lines of mistaking their ignorance for knowledge ... is there an official name for that kind of fallacy?

Yes - stupidity.

 

[prov1810]

I am not talking about Jesus (i.e. God as he
'incarnated' on planet earth).

1. A person is finite.
2. A person consists of matter/energy.
3. A person has self-consciousness.

(...yes: Dolphins and some of the great apes are IMO
persons!)

from 1. follows (via brute force - I admit) that a
person can not be all knowing and all controlling -
because he/she/it is finite.

Is infinite personality impossible?

Infinite personality is compatible with the existence of other beings because infinity and totality are not the same thing.

An infinite person is a perfect person, with no limits on His freedom, knowledge and goodness.

 

[grasping the after wind]

***​

How come? One can (seriously) doubt the concept
of an almighty creator - and still be afraid of 'hell'.

Exactly why I qualified the statement with the term "most likely". It is certainly possible to fear any number of things for various reasons but it is very unlikely that one that does not believe in an Almighty Creator would tend to believe in a place of eternal torment exists created by that Almighty Creator.

 

[bling]

Nothing to fear? But what about the fiery pit
and eternal torment?

Just accept God’s Love and there is no fear.

Christ is God, no?

There is God the Father in heaven that flesh just cannot look upon, but if we have seen Christ we have seen God the Father, as best we can.

Please forgive me - but I am not sure...

I am sorry, I do not mean to push you. As a nonbeliever you cannot have Godly type Love and I do not expect you to even acknowledge for wanting to Love like that. Godly type Love is a gift God freely gives you, but it come automatically as a result of accepting God’s Love. Do you have a need to be Loved unconditionally?

Yes, I do want to change.

As you get to know people, including myself; we all want to change (be better because we personally realize we are far from perfect).

Real “change” is extremely hard for us, but God has and can make huge changes in people.

I think I understand.

Great

Can you give me an example of those
'wonderful things'?

Great question:

Getting involved with other people one on one is where wonderful things can happen. We need to start off small doing stuff like washing the dishes, taking out the garbage, but totally out of Love for what God has given us (not to get anything especially the praise of others).

Remember “God is Love” sometimes called “agape” and I tend to use Godly type Love to keep it different than “love” as the world uses the word. German has better words for Godly type Love than you find with English. So when you are compelled by “Love” it is God’s Spirit compelling you.

I taught Sunday School Bible class are the prison not expecting much from it and came away shocked by how powerful the Spirit led those Christian Prisoners. I did very little (I may have been more harm then good actually) but when a prisoner was converted the day he was baptized, he would go before his gang and tell them what he did, they were stripped of everything they had (especially their weapons) and would either be beaten by their former gang or beat by other gangs as pay-back for what they had done in the past. They showed in creditable strength to hold the line, since all the gangs were looking for the slightest weakness (this would mean they were not going to die for the cause and could thus be made into a gang slave). There is no privacy in our prisons so they were watch constantly. The only way they could sleep in the group barracks was to have another Christian praying over them all night and also watching for a nightly attack. These guys studied, prayed, fellowshipped and witnessed to others 24/7. When they got out, they were a totally different person from when they went in. One went on to get a phD in theology and did mission work in Africa.

My experience in working with prisoners changed my life.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christianity is not legalism.

Christ in the New Covenant has only two commands, love God and love others. When we fail in those areas, there is forgiveness and we can admit we were wrong and turn away from it and choose a path with more blessings (the Sermon on the Mount begins with the Beatitudes, a list of blessings that Jesus pronounces- humility, purity, mercy, meekness, peacemaking, hungering after justice). Life is messy and we are bound to make mistakes in the process of trying to live out those commandments, but God forgives us anyways. Not because we really deserve it, but because it is in God's nature to be merciful.

 

[Pink Spider]

Is infinite personality impossible?

I'd say yes.

Infinite personality is compatible with the existence of other beings because infinity and totality are not the same thing.

I don't quite follow. Forgive me. Could you
elaborate a little?

An infinite person is a perfect person, with no limits on His freedom, knowledge and goodness.

In a metaphysical sense: Maybe. I think it's beyond
human comprehension to grasp the qualities of
a (hypothetically) infinite person.

 

[Pink Spider]

Exactly why I qualified the statement with the term "most likely". It is certainly possible to fear any number of things for various reasons but it is very unlikely that one that does not believe in an Almighty Creator would tend to believe in a place of eternal torment exists created by that Almighty Creator.

On a rational level that's true. But sometimes I ask
myself: What if God exists after all - then what?
And that's where my (occasional) fear of hell
comes from.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Pink Spider]

There is God the Father in heaven that flesh just cannot look upon, but if we have seen Christ we have seen God the Father, as best we can.

I understand.

I am sorry, I do not mean to push you.

Don't worry - you didn't push me at all!

As a nonbeliever you cannot have Godly type Love and I do not expect you to even acknowledge for wanting to Love like that.

I reckon that's true.

Godly type Love is a gift God freely gives you, but it come automatically as a result of accepting God’s Love. Do you have a need to be Loved unconditionally?

Yes, I do!

Real “change” is extremely hard for us, but God has and can make huge changes in people.

Really? That sounds good!

Getting involved with other people one on one is where wonderful things can happen. We need to start off small doing stuff like washing the dishes, taking out the garbage, but totally out of Love for what God has given us (not to get anything especially the praise of others).

Yes, that makes sense. Even the longest journey
begins with one small step. Right?

Remember “God is Love” sometimes called “agape” and I tend to use Godly type Love to keep it different than “love” as the world uses the word.

The Greek word ἀγάπη is used in the NT, where
it means:
Love of God/Christ for humankind. Right?

I taught Sunday School Bible class are the prison not expecting much from it and came away shocked by how powerful the Spirit led those Christian Prisoners. I did very little (I may have been more harm then good actually) but when a prisoner was converted the day he was baptized, he would go before his gang and tell them what he did, they were stripped of everything they had (especially their weapons) and would either be beaten by their former gang or beat by other gangs as pay-back for what they had done in the past. They showed in creditable strength to hold the line, since all the gangs were looking for the slightest weakness (this would mean they were not going to die for the cause and could thus be made into a gang slave). There is no privacy in our prisons so they were watch constantly. The only way they could sleep in the group barracks was to have another Christian praying over them all night and also watching for a nightly attack. These guys studied, prayed, fellowshipped and witnessed to others 24/7. When they got out, they were a totally different person from when they went in. One went on to get a phD in theology and did mission work in Africa.

My experience in working with prisoners changed my life.

That's a great, great story. Thanks for sharing!

Thanks for reading!

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Greetings.

Please excuse this naïve question.

Apart from the ten commandments - what is allowed
and what is forbidden?
If god is constantly watching and all wrongdoing is
noted and written down - it must be of utmost
importance to know what is allowed and what is
forbidden, in other words:

What pleases god - and what doesn't?

Take for example music. What kind of music pleases
god and what kind leads to hell?

Hi Pink Spider,

As an answer to your question, I'm going to go with the general decision of the Council of Jerusalem in regard to what we as Gentile Christians are admonished to abstain from. (See Acts chapter 15, specifically verses 19-20, 28-29, but within the context of that entire chapter, of course.) I think you'll see what I'm getting at when you read it.

As far as music is concerned, as just one topic we can pick on, I typically listen to any music I want to--I feel that I am free in the faith to do so (as Paul seems to state to the Romans) but with the caveat that if any of the music is too blatantly anti-God, or specifically encouraging an immoral lifestyle, I forgo that song or album.

Peace!

 

[food4thought]

I am not talking about Jesus (i.e. God as he
'incarnated' on planet earth).

1. A person is finite.
2. A person consists of matter/energy.
3. A person has self-consciousness.

(...yes: Dolphins and some of the great apes are IMO
persons!)

from 1. follows (via brute force - I admit) that a
person can not be all knowing and all controlling -
because he/she/it is finite.

Obviously, by that definition any infinite Being could not be considered a person. After some brief research, I discovered a very real debate over how exactly to define "person", and the argument devolves into various branches of philosophy, law, religion, etc... each arguing for their own definition.


I would say that whether or not we could define God the Father as a person by one definition or another, it is safe to say that He has revealed Himself to us as a Being with self-awareness, intellect, will, and emotion (all before the incarnation of Jesus). To me, that identifies Him as a Person.


We must be careful not to fall into the trap of anthropocentrism when trying to discuss/describe God. Although the Bible frequently uses anthropomorphism in attempting to express God to us in terms we can understand, it is also makes it clear that God is in essence very different than we are in many ways. He is Spirit (not the matter and energy of this universe), holy (set apart, different, sacred), eternal (having no beginning or end, completely independent of time as we know it), all knowing, and all powerful.


In your response to Prov1810, you said:

I think it's beyond
human comprehension to grasp the qualities of
a (hypothetically) infinite person.

I think that is pretty much true. This is one of the reasons Jesus came to us as a man, so that He could reveal to us the essence of the Father's character and nature to us. This in itself is proof of God's love for us.

 

[Pink Spider]

Obviously, by that definition any infinite Being could not be considered a person. After some brief research, I discovered a very real debate over how exactly to define "person", and the argument devolves into various branches of philosophy, law, religion, etc... each arguing for their own definition.

Yes, I know. But the question finite/infinite is
very rarely touched upon in a scientific
manner.

I would say that whether or not we could define God the Father as a person by one definition or another, it is safe to say that He has revealed Himself to us as a Being with self-awareness, intellect, will, and emotion (all before the incarnation of Jesus). To me, that identifies Him as a Person.

I understand. Thank you!

We must be careful not to fall into the trap of anthropocentrism when trying to discuss/describe God. Although the Bible frequently uses anthropomorphism in attempting to express God to us in terms we can understand, it is also makes it clear that God is in essence very different than we are in many ways. He is Spirit (not the matter and energy of this universe), holy (set apart, different, sacred), eternal (having no beginning or end, completely independent of time as we know it), all knowing, and all powerful.

That is a very good summary! Thank you!

I think that is pretty much true. This is one of the reasons Jesus came to us as a man, so that He could reveal to us the essence of the Father's character and nature to us. This in itself is proof of God's love for us.

The essence and nature of an infinite entity?

 

[Pink Spider]

As far as music is concerned, as just one topic we can pick on, I typically listen to any music I want to--I feel that I am free in the faith to do so (as Paul seems to state to the Romans) but with the caveat that if any of the music is too blatantly anti-God, or specifically encouraging an immoral lifestyle, I forgo that song or album.

Thanks for your reply Philo!

Please forgive me - but 'subscribing' to the Christian
faith is beginning to feel more and more like
moving to North Korea, where EVERYTHING and
EVERYONE is constantly under surveillance, where
the tiniest things (like haircut, music, whom you
have sex with etc. etc.) has to be uniform and be
specifically approved by the Great Leader or else
severe punishment or even death will be the
consequence.

Please forgive me - but I am utterly unable to
accept such a god. Sorry!

 

[food4thought]

Thanks for your reply Philo!

Please forgive me - but 'subscribing' to the Christian
faith is beginning to feel more and more like
moving to North Korea, where EVERYTHING and
EVERYONE is constantly under surveillance, where
the tiniest things (like haircut, music, whom you
have sex with etc. etc.) has to be uniform and be
specifically approved by the Great Leader or else
severe punishment or even death will be the
consequence.

Please forgive me - but I am utterly unable to
accept such a god. Sorry!

Wow! I'm sorry you think of God in that way, as it is very inaccurate. What has led you to think this?

 

[Pink Spider]

staff edit .

Yes I thought so, just wasn't sure.

As to the concept of 'hell':

The KJV translates both 'Ge hinnom'
(Hebrew)/'Gehenna' (Greek) and
Sheol (Hebrew)/'Hades' (Greek) to 'hell'.

'Sheol' means "grave", "pit", or "abode of the dead".
The translation to Greek as 'Hades' adds a lot of
Greek mythology to the original meaning
IMHO. (like the Ferryman, Kerberos, Orpheus etc.)

And then the translation of 'Hades' to 'Hell' finally
establishes the Christian concept of 'Hell' although
neither 'Sheol' nor 'Hades' (in their original meaning)
refer to a place of everlasting torment.

As to "Gehenna"/"Ge Hinnom" - that refers to the
"Valley of Hinnon", which was a garbage dump
outside of Jerusalem.

It was a place where people burned their garbage
and thus there was always a fire burning there.
Bodies of those deemed to have died in sin without
hope for salvation (such as people who committed
suicide) were thrown there to be destroyed.

staff edit

Is Trinity a false teaching?

 

[Pink Spider]

Wow! I'm sorry you think of God in that way, as it is very inaccurate. What has led you to think this?

But isn't he all-knowing, all-seeing, all-judging and
all-controlling - even down to the tiniest details.
Both OT and NT (Galatians if I'm not mistaken).

Please forgive me for saying so:

In the OT mass-murder (genocide), slavery etc.
are perfectly OK with him.
But in the NT (...and the late great Christopher
Hitchens was right) it's even worse: Constant
surveillance - no privacy and the tiniest deviation
has vast consequences.

It all started for me (to be honest) with the question
of what music one is 'allowed' to listen to.
A relatively insignificant issue - one would think. But
no. Obviously one has to listen to church and gospel
music all day long because, for example:
Listening to Marilyn Manson (one of the major
scapegoats of Christianity) and approving of
some of his lyrics is a sin and one must stop
immediately and repent.

That is IMO: North Korea (or Orwells '1984' if you like)


300 years ago they would have burnt me on a
stake for saying such things - so I guess I am lucky.


Please forgive me for speaking bluntly. Nothing
personal and no offense intended!

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread has undergone a clean up. Please remember that only Christians in agreement with our Statement of Faith can post in response to the OP (who, of course, may respond as well. )

 

[grasping the after wind]

On a rational level that's true. But sometimes I ask
myself: What if God exists after all - then what?
And that's where my (occasional) fear of hell
comes from.

Thanks for reading!

Perhaps that occasional fear is the beginning of wisdom? That, of course, is not for me to decide.