Naïve question: What is forbidden, what is allowed?

[bling]

Yes, that makes sense. Even the longest journey
begins with one small step. Right?

Very true, so many think you start out just doing stuff (Going to church or something like that)as a result of being commanded to do it, when that just falters following commands without being motivated by Love. 1 Cor. 13: 1-4 tells us if we do anything without this agape or Godly type Love it is worthless. I will also add if you have this Love it will motivate you to do good stuff.

The Greek word ἀγάπη is used in the NT, where
it means:
Love of God/Christ for humankind. Right?

The problem is ἀγάπη is not used consistently in scripture and because Godly type Love includes more than just agape, so I have a little problem using just agape.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks for your reply Philo!

Please forgive me - but 'subscribing' to the Christian
faith is beginning to feel more and more like
moving to North Korea, where EVERYTHING and
EVERYONE is constantly under surveillance, where
the tiniest things (like haircut, music, whom you
have sex with etc. etc.) has to be uniform and be
specifically approved by the Great Leader or else
severe punishment or even death will be the
consequence.

Please forgive me - but I am utterly unable to
accept such a god. Sorry!

Pink Spider,

Well, I can understand that some aspects of Christianity may seem a bit frustrating, especially if one has to consider that some modification of taste and behavior may be required. However, in the case of music, I don't think I said anything which implied that you necessarily have to give up your favorite music. For instance, I like to listen to Fleetwood Mac and/or Stevie Nicks. Stevie Nicks is known to be a Wiccan (if I'm not mistaken), and I don't see why I would necessarily have to carve all of her music out from my life if I am a Christian. Then there other music artists who seem to be on the fringe, like Alice Cooper, Mr. classic Shock Rock himself, but despite the fact that he is a Christian, he still performs (or has performed) shock rock.

Furthermore, I think a Christian person could listen to some Marilyn Manson songs if they are approached from a philosophical viewpoint, since some of the criticisms he makes in his music may be valid (here, I'm just thinking of his "the Beautiful People" song), but personally I would wonder why someone would want to barrage his/her mind with many of his songs that specifically represent an attitude of Anti-Christ.

Ultimately, is Christianity an aesthetic issue for you, or is it instead an issue of truth?

 

[ViaCrucis]

I've been out of town since Friday, so I haven't been able to participate in this conversation, so I'm going to try and answer things starting from here (and then anything else perhaps brought up throughout the rest of the thread).

That is good news. Why do Christians have to read
the Old Testament at all - when everything there is
only valid for the Jewish people?

The most basic Christian confession is that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Christ or Messiah. That confession makes no sense apart from the historic and religious context of the Old Testament. Namely of God's solemn promise to bring redemption to a world broken with injustice, sin, and death. To that end we find the promise of the coming Messiah, whose coming meant and means the restoration of the world. Christians confess Jesus is that Messiah, or in Greek, Christ; hence why we call ourselves Christians.

We see in Jesus the advent all God's promises, the spoke around which the wheel of history itself spins. In the writings of the Old Testament Prophets we often see a grand vision of not only Israel's full redemption, but of all nations. The Prophets speak of a time when all people walk hand-in-hand to God's holy mountain, a time when humanity is free of violence, war, suffering, and all injustice. An era where God reigns as King through His anointed, the Messiah. Jesus, likewise spoke of the kingdom of God, and that this kingdom wasn't only a far off, future-flung reality, but was a reality entering into the world then and there, through Him.

Jesus is God's Messiah, the royal authority through whom God is renewing, restoring, and redeeming all of creation, drawing all human beings to Himself, Jew and Gentile. In and through Jesus is fulfillment, the coming about, of that ancient and grand vision of the Prophets. The resurrection of Jesus Christ, in ancient Christian teaching, is the 8th Day of Creation; Christians saw in the day Jesus rose from the dead as the day God began anew the work of creation, of bringing renewal, restoring all things.

The narrative of the Christian Church in the New Testament is rather incomprehensible without the foundation of Israel, the Prophets, the entire Old Testament. Likewise, Christians believe the Old Testament only really comes into light when read in light of Jesus Christ. The two work in tandem, it is the two-fold witness to Jesus Christ. Christians call them testaments, they bear testimony to Jesus.

Otherwise Christianity wouldn't have spread like

it did. No?

Are the Jewish people then still the chosen
people?

Insofar as the Jews are the children of Jacob to whom God made a covenant promise through Moses. Being "chosen" never meant better or especially "special"; rather it meant that God had established a specific and unique covenant with this nation of people. As such the Jewish people are still Jacob's children, that can't be undone.

But according to Christianity there is a new "chosen-ness", in Christ, which is universal. Because in and through Christ God has called the entire human race to a newness of life found uniquely in Jesus of Nazareth, by His death and resurrection and the renewal of all things in and from Him. Jew or Gentile, that doesn't matter, for all are made new, brought into a new life, a new way of being human and having humanity in the New Man, Jesus the Christ. The Israel of old and the Israel of new are one and the same in Jesus Christ:

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." - Colossians 3:11

Christ not only reconciles the disparate nations, tribes, tongues, and people groups, Jews and Gentiles; more than this Jesus Christ draws in, joins together, and unites the fullness of the whole human family into Himself, and under the gracious Fatherhood of God. What was once many and divided, is now one and united. One new human person, Jesus the Christ. To whom the whole of heaven and earth is subject, as He reigns King and Lord eternal.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Pink Spider]

The problem is ἀγάπη is not used consistently in scripture and because Godly type Love includes more than just agape, so I have a little problem using just agape.

That's interesting! I will have to check it out.

 

[Pink Spider]

Ultimately, is Christianity an aesthetic issue for you, or is it instead an issue of truth?

I think you nailed it. Aesthetics is probably a big
issue for me.

I know - many people will say:

'Well if he is not even willing to change his lifestyle
when it comes to small things - then there is no hope
for him'

All I can say is: 'Give me some time to think it true
and to read the bible'.

 

[Pink Spider]

I've been out of town since Friday, so I haven't been able to participate in this conversation, so I'm going to try and answer things starting from here (and then anything else perhaps brought up throughout the rest of the thread).

Cool - thank you!

The most basic Christian confession is that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the Christ or Messiah. That confession makes no sense apart from the historic and religious context of the Old Testament. Namely of God's solemn promise to bring redemption to a world broken with injustice, sin, and death. To that end we find the promise of the coming Messiah, whose coming meant and means the restoration of the world. Christians confess Jesus is that Messiah, or in Greek, Christ; hence why we call ourselves Christians.

I see. And the Jewish people are still waiting for
the messiah. Yes?

I have understood that I have to read both the OT
and the NT in order to really understand.
The OT however seems to me like a really tough
read because of all the history and -not to forget-
all the smiting, slaying, drowning in the name of/or
even by God himself.

Well - in any case I now need a bible dictionary,
otherwise I will not be able to understand
anything. I'm thinking of getting me Holman's
Bible dictionary.

The narrative of the Christian Church in the New Testament is rather incomprehensible without the foundation of Israel, the Prophets, the entire Old Testament. Likewise, Christians believe the Old Testament only really comes into light when read in light of Jesus Christ. The two work in tandem, it is the two-fold witness to Jesus Christ. Christians call them testaments, they bear testimony to Jesus.

Yes - I think I understand.

"Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all." - Colossians 3:11

Christ not only reconciles the disparate nations, tribes, tongues, and people groups, Jews and Gentiles; more than this Jesus Christ draws in, joins together, and unites the fullness of the whole human family into Himself, and under the gracious Fatherhood of God. What was once many and divided, is now one and united. One new human person, Jesus the Christ. To whom the whole of heaven and earth is subject, as He reigns King and Lord eternal.

Forgive me for saying so but it seems that Jesus
reconciles and unites whereas man divides - I
mean all the different denominations that man
has created.

Whose fault is it? Satan's?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you nailed it. Aesthetics is probably a big
issue for me.

I know - many people will say:

'Well if he is not even willing to change his lifestyle
when it comes to small things - then there is no hope
for him'

All I can say is: 'Give me some time to think it true
and to read the bible'.

Pink Spider, your honest reply is appreciated.

I'm sure you're right that some Christians may view non-Christians as being hopeless at times, but I don't like to take that approach with people. Life often takes many turns and we can't foresee what will necessarily be the conclusion of other people's choices and lives. Moreover, as you know, we really aren't supposed to judge others; that is God's prerogative only.

Personally, I wish you the best, and I'm impressed that you've at least taken an interest in exploring what the Bible and Christianity is about...so many people don't even give it a chance. I think you've got a good thing going with your KJV study bible, study aides, etc.; that is an excellent place to start. Take the time you need.

Peace

 

[ViaCrucis]

I see. And the Jewish people are still waiting for
the messiah. Yes?

Yes. Judaism teaches that the Messiah is yet to come. It's one of the 13 Principles of Faith espoused by the medieval Jewish sage, Maimonides,

Forgive me for saying so but it seems that Jesus

reconciles and unites whereas man divides - I
mean all the different denominations that man
has created.

Whose fault is it? Satan's?

One doesn't have to blame the devil, one merely needs to look and see the human tendency toward divisiveness and antagonism. The various splits and schisms within Christianity have a host of various reasons and causes, usually one can find plain, ordinary, human pride. That said, most Christian denominations and groups generally have a policy of working together, and aiming to help put aside some of the older divisions, or at least overcome the historic hostility.

For all that might separate us, most Christians recognize that which we hold universally in common: Our Baptism. And even if we are not visibly one, we are mystically joined together in our common Baptism, in Christ Jesus. Though obviously not all Christians share such ecumenical sentiment, the majority, arguably, do.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[food4thought]

But isn't he all-knowing, all-seeing, all-judging and all-controlling - even down to the tiniest details. Both OT and NT (Galatians if I'm not mistaken).

I could split hairs on the "all-controlling" comment, but in essence He is all those things.

In the OT mass-murder (genocide), slavery etc.

are perfectly OK with him.

I admit that their are episodes in the OT that I found quite difficult to accept at first. Several things should be noted:

1) Many of the things people take issue with were not commanded by God at all, but were recorded as honest accounts of the actions of people who were supposed to be following God, but took matters into their own hands.

2) As for slavery in the OT, here is a rather long but VERY informative article on what exactly the OT Law commanded the Israelites regarding that topic.

Slavery In The Bible (2/5) | Bible Apologetics

3) As for God commanding the complete eradication of certain tribes in the promised land, I believe that it has to do with the same reason that God sent the flood in Noah's day. Read this passage and tell me what you think was going on in the time leading up to the flood:

Gen 6:1-5 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, (2) that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. (3) Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (4) The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (5) Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But in the NT (...and the late great Christopher

Hitchens was right) it's even worse: Constant surveillance - no privacy and the tiniest deviation
has vast consequences.

There is most definitely no hiding anything from God, who sees all, and knows everything right down to the hidden (sometimes even from ourselves) motive of the heart. Yet this is the same God who loves us, has compassion and mercy on our mortal weaknesses, and His offered us complete and total forgiveness of everything we have ever done, or ever will do, through faith in Jesus Christ. God is not some cosmic pest exterminator waiting for the opportunity to wipe you out... He is a loving Father watching over you, seeking to guide and counsel you into maturity, hoping to help you avoid making those really horrible mistakes that you will inevitably regret.

It all started for me (to be honest) with the question

of what music one is 'allowed' to listen to.
A relatively insignificant issue - one would think. But
no. Obviously one has to listen to church and gospel
music all day long because, for example:
Listening to Marilyn Manson (one of the major
scapegoats of Christianity) and approving of
some of his lyrics is a sin and one must stop
immediately and repent.

A couple points here:

1) There is no law in the NT regarding what type of music you listen to, we have freedom in Christ. The reason that so many Christians decide not to listen to some music is not because we can't, but because we don't want to! Do you have any great urge to listen to Christian music as a non-Christian? Neither do I have any great urge to listen to music from a man who claims to worship Satan.

2) I didn't become a Christian until 1998, but even before that I really didn't get into Manson. I did, however, get into Metallica quite a bit. They made quite a few songs that were derogatory of God and/or Christians. Some of those songs, like "The God That Failed" and "The Cure" reflect a misunderstanding of Biblical Christianity. Some of the others, like "Holier Than Thou" and "Leper Messiah" are (at least in part) very real criticisms of the actions of some people or groups who may or may not really be Christians... I think these last two songs should be required listening for some "Christians" lol.

3) Generally, those who try to tell other Christians that listening to certain types of music is sinful are not at all concerned with the content, only the style. I have encountered similar pushback from these types even when I was listening to some Christian metal.

That is IMO: North Korea (or Orwells '1984' if you like)

God is not Kim Jong Uhn, nor is He "Big Brother".

First, because He knows the results of every possible future, He alone can chart the best possible future for both individuals and mankind as a whole.

Second, He is not selfish or corrupt in any way. He is good, loving, and just. His rule will be completely good.

300 years ago they would have burnt me on a

stake for saying such things - so I guess I am lucky.

Those who practiced such things completely disregarded NT teachings. We are all blessed to not be living under the totalitarian regime of any human organization.

Please forgive me for speaking bluntly. Nothing

personal and no offense intended!

No offense taken.

 

[Pink Spider]

Thank you for your informative post!

For all that might separate us, most Christians recognize that which we hold universally in common: Our Baptism. And even if we are not visibly one, we are mystically joined together in our common Baptism, in Christ Jesus. Though obviously not all Christians share such ecumenical sentiment, the majority, arguably, do.

Yes, I see. IMO Christians are not as ecumenical.
And some Christians separate themselves from any
other denominations, like for example the LDS and
the JV.

 

[Pink Spider]

I could split hairs on the "all-controlling" comment, but in essence He is all those things.

Thanks for your honest answer.

I admit that their are episodes in the OT that I found
quite difficult to accept at first.

God in the OT appears to be very jealous and
wrathful. I understand the jealousy - there were
after all many gods around at that time - so he
had to make sure that at least the Jewish people
stuck with him...

Does all that sound like the creator of the
universe? Being jealous and 'afraid' to
loose his people to some other deity?

No offense intended.

1) Many of the things people take issue with were not commanded by God at all, but were recorded as honest accounts of the actions of people who were supposed to be following God, but took matters into their own hands.

I am certainly no expert - but still: A lot of the
wholesale slaying, drowning, stoning, destroying
whole cities incl. all inhabitants, killing all the first-
born in Egypt etc. was done either by God
himself or his people who were commanded to.

2) As for slavery in the OT, here is a rather long but VERY informative article on what exactly the OT Law commanded the Israelites regarding that topic.

Slavery In The Bible (2/5) | Bible Apologetics

Thank you! I will read it later.

3) As for God commanding the complete eradication of certain tribes in the promised land, I believe that it has to do with the same reason that God sent the flood in Noah's day. Read this passage and tell me what you think was going on in the time leading up to the flood:

Gen 6:1-5 Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, (2) that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. (3) Then the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." (4) The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (5) Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

The Nephilims (only mentioned twice in the OT)
are characterized as Giants or (more likely) big
men.

If I understand correctly - God drowned the whole
earth because the Jewish people were beginning
to marry Nephilims. Is that right?

There is most definitely no hiding anything from God, who sees all, and knows everything right down to the hidden (sometimes even from ourselves) motive of the heart. Yet this is the same God who loves us, has compassion and mercy on our mortal weaknesses, and His offered us complete and total forgiveness of everything we have ever done, or ever will do, through faith in Jesus Christ.

Yes he knows are thoughts as well and we will be
judged also for our thoughts.
Please forgive me - but that is a striking
resemblance to 'Thought Crime' in 1984.

God is not some cosmic pest exterminator waiting for the opportunity to wipe you out...

I'm not worried about myself but about people
who take the OT literally and seriously and set
on a crusade to exterminate the non-believers.

He is a loving Father watching over you, seeking to guide and counsel you into maturity, hoping to help you avoid making those really horrible mistakes that you will inevitably regret.

My opinion? In the NT: Yes. In the OT: No.

Do you have any great urge to listen to Christian music as a non-Christian?

No - not even so called 'Christian Metal'.

Neither do I have any great urge to listen to music from a man who claims to worship Satan.

I understand and won't argue.

I think these last two songs should be required listening for some "Christians" lol.

That would result in an outcry...

Generally, those who try to tell other Christians that listening to certain types of music is sinful are not at all concerned with the content, only the style. I have encountered similar pushback from these types even when I was listening to some Christian metal.

Yes - that is certainly true.

God is not Kim Jong Uhn, nor is He "Big Brother".

No. Those cannot read your mind, the Christian
god can. No offense intended.

Those who practiced such things completely disregarded NT teachings. We are all blessed to not be living under the totalitarian regime of any human organization.

Yes we are.

 

[sinning machine]

Hay Spyder are you totaly confussed yet ? dont worry you are suposed to be. My posts got pulled by the mods, I broke a rule by exposeing the trinity doctrin on this thread one must believe this doctrin here, I did not do it on purpose I simply did not know anyway, the rant about the false Hell doctrin was at after the wind or before the wind poster, I explained that in the same post , I think the unorthodox theology section is where its safe to speek freely without breaking rules . At the momment you are learning about the Bible and it will not make much sense to you, as all you will find is more questions without answers, but this volume of books is unlike any other for between its covers breaths life, and a wisdom which explains everything which is important to the journey all men will travel, make no mistake all men will learn what those books have hiden in them, but for now just concentrate on the storey's, don't get to involved with theory that will come and it has its place, the story's are the milk and we all need to start out drinking milk before we move on to meat Hebrews 5:12 ~1 Corinthians 3:2 ps: your doing great

 

[food4thought]

God in the OT appears to be very jealous and

wrathful. I understand the jealousy - there were
after all many gods around at that time - so he
had to make sure that at least the Jewish people
stuck with him...

Remember to be careful not to think of God too much in human terms. God is not us, we are not God. Again, the Bible often resorts to anthropomorphisms to attempt to describe God in terms we can understand. God is indeed "jealous" for us, but not in the same way that humans tend to be... His jealousy stems from knowing that these other "gods" are not gods at all... at best they were/are the speculations of human imaginations. At worst they are inspired by demons. He is jealous to protect us from ideas and beings that can and will do harm to our soul.

Does all that sound like the creator of the

universe? Being jealous and 'afraid' to
loose his people to some other deity?

No offense intended.

No offense taken. The Father is not nor has He ever been afraid.

I am certainly no expert - but still: A lot of the

wholesale slaying, drowning, stoning, destroying
whole cities incl. all inhabitants, killing all the first-
born in Egypt etc. was done either by God
himself or his people who were commanded to.

True. God never does that type of thing without purpose... God is the Creator of all humanity, and He loves His creation. Sometimes, out of love for all of humanity, He dealt very harshly with those who were a danger to all humans in some way. Remember, God can see the outcome of His actions... He knows with certainty whether His judgment is for the good or not.

The Nephilims (only mentioned twice in the OT)

are characterized as Giants or (more likely) big
men.

The translation "giants", although probably accurate in some cases, is unfortunate. The Hebrew word "nephilim" is defined as "feller", indicating strength, by Strong's dictionary; but a more accurate definition would be "fallen", indicating something more sinister.

If I understand correctly - God drowned the whole

earth because the Jewish people were beginning
to marry Nephilims. Is that right?

Well, I should tell you at this point that there are two very different ways that Christians have understood this passage... the bottom line, though, is that God sent the flood because "the thoughts of man's heart was only evil continually" (verse 5), and the earth was "corrupt" and "full of violence" as a result... as far as I know, all Christian theologians agree on that. They disagree over the reason things on earth got that way.


The main dispute among theologians on this passage boils down to this: who are the "sons of God"? Since it would be difficult for you to dig through the entire Old Testament looking for verses where this particular phrase is found, I did a search using my computer, looking for instances where the same phrase is found in the Hebrew text. I will let you decide for yourself who the "sons of God" were based upon how that Hebrew phrase is used in the rest of the OT. Here are the verses I found: Genesis 6:2 and 6:4; Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. Similar, but different, Hebrew phrases are found in Deuteronomy 14:1 and Psalms 82:6... although these last two verses seem to argue against my view, I included them for honesty's sake.


I should also tell you that the view I hold on this is definitely the minority among modern Christians, but it was the common view of Christians for the first several hundred years after Jesus. Because it is controversial, I want you to get your understanding of this point from the Bible itself, not me.

Yes he knows are thoughts as well and we will be

judged also for our thoughts.
Please forgive me - but that is a striking
resemblance to 'Thought Crime' in 1984.

Our thoughts reveal the intentions behind our words and deeds, so they will indeed be a part of the judgment. Again, recognize that God is nothing like the human leaders of "1984".

I'm not worried about myself but about people

who take the OT literally and seriously and set
on a crusade to exterminate the non-believers.

Pretty much every ideology known to man has been used to justify killing those who disagree, or have something they want to take... those who have done so in the name of Jesus have had to twist and distort the Bible in order to justify doing so. The specific people groups that God commanded Israel to wipe out no longer exist.

My opinion? In the NT: Yes. In the OT: No.

I believe they are one and the same God.

No. Those cannot read your mind, the Christian

god can. No offense intended.

They also aren't the perfectly good, just, merciful, loving, and all-knowing Creator of all things. No offense taken.

 

[Pink Spider]

Hay Spyder are you totaly confussed yet ?

Yes, I am.

[...]dont worry you are suposed to be.

Really?

My posts got pulled by the mods, I broke a rule by exposeing the trinity doctrin on this thread one must believe this doctrin here, I did not do it on purpose I simply did not know anyway[...]

Yes, I know. Everything's cool!

[...] the rant about the false Hell doctrin was at after the wind or before the wind poster, I explained that in the same post[...]

I posted my thoughts about sheol, gehenna and
hades in this thread.

[...]I think the unorthodox theology section is where its safe to speek freely without breaking rules .

But non-believers like me are not allowed to
post there...

At the momment you are learning about the Bible and it will not make much sense to you, as all you will find is more questions without answers,

That is true.

[...]but for now just concentrate on the storey's, don't get to involved with theory that will come and it has its place, the story's are the milk and we all need to start out drinking milk before we move on to meat Hebrews 5:12 ~1 Corinthians 3:2

OK.

ps: your doing great

You think so? I'm not sure...

 

[Pink Spider]

First of all: Thank you for your patience with me!

Remember to be careful not to think of God too
much in human terms. God is not us, we are not God.

Yes - that was my bad. Sorry for that.

Again, the Bible often resorts to anthropomorphisms to attempt to describe God in terms we can understand.

Yes - I have to keep that in mind...

God is indeed "jealous" for us, but not in the same way that humans tend to be... His jealousy stems from knowing that these other "gods" are not gods at all... at best they were/are the speculations of human imaginations. At worst they are inspired by demons. He is jealous to protect us from ideas and beings that can and will do harm to our soul.

All this false gods do no longer exist, do they?

At the time of the OT and NT there were so many
different gods, different prophets, different
theologies, uncountable miracles together with
all kind of demons and other strange creatures.

How is one to know which is the right god and
which is not?

No offense taken. The Father is not nor has He ever been afraid.

Being the creator of the universe that would
indeed be very strange.

True. God never does that type of thing without purpose... God is the Creator of all humanity, and He loves His creation. Sometimes, out of love for all of humanity, He dealt very harshly with those who were a danger to all humans in some way. Remember, God can see the outcome of His actions... He knows with certainty whether His judgment is for the good or not.

I have to 'chew' on that for the time being -
maybe some day I will understand.

The translation "giants", although probably accurate in some cases, is unfortunate. The Hebrew word "nephilim" is defined as "feller", indicating strength, by Strong's dictionary; but a more accurate definition would be "fallen", indicating something more sinister.

Yes there are many interpretations. From fallen
angels to demons etc.

The name is familiar to me because of the band
'Fields of the Nephilim'.

Well, I should tell you at this point that there are two very different ways that Christians have understood this passage... the bottom line, though, is that God sent the flood because "the thoughts of man's heart was only evil continually" (verse 5), and the earth was "corrupt" and "full of violence" as a result... as far as I know, all Christian theologians agree on that. They disagree over the reason things on earth got that way.

I see. As to the flood: Even if all the polar ice and
all other ice on earth melts and it would rain for a
year - you come nowhere near enough a water
level that 'drowns the whole earth...

The main dispute among theologians on this passage boils down to this: who are the "sons of God"? Since it would be difficult for you to dig through the entire Old Testament looking for verses where this particular phrase is found, I did a search using my computer, looking for instances where the same phrase is found in the Hebrew text. I will let you decide for yourself who the "sons of God" were based upon how that Hebrew phrase is used in the rest of the OT. Here are the verses I found: Genesis 6:2 and 6:4; Job 1:6, 2:1, and 38:7. Similar, but different, Hebrew phrases are found in Deuteronomy 14:1 and Psalms 82:6... although these last two verses seem to argue against my view, I included them for honesty's sake.

Thank you very much for the work you have done.
I will check these verses out.

I should also tell you that the view I hold on this is definitely the minority among modern Christians, but it was the common view of Christians for the first several hundred years after Jesus. Because it is controversial, I want you to get your understanding of this point from the Bible itself, not me.

Thank you very much. You are an honest man.

Our thoughts reveal the intentions behind our words and deeds, so they will indeed be a part of the judgment. Again, recognize that God is nothing like the human leaders of "1984".

On some thoughts we act, others come just
'randomly' and we would never act on them.

Pretty much every ideology known to man has been used to justify killing those who disagree, or have something they want to take... those who have done so in the name of Jesus have had to twist and distort the Bible in order to justify doing so.

Yes, I understand.

The specific people groups that God commanded Israel to wipe out no longer exist.

Yes, they were wiped out.

They also aren't the perfectly good, just, merciful, loving, and all-knowing Creator of all things. No offense taken.

You are right.

 

[sinning machine]

Hay Spyder there are more than one way to skin a cat you know, Hebrews 11:1 explains what faith is, which is a gift, Ephesians 2:8 but not all gifts come wrapped

If you have hope of seeing evidence, why not try find it, there is lots, you just have to realy want it and know how to look for it.

What I am saying is, if you want evidence of God, dont think what is possible with a mans reasoning, because all is possible with God Matthew 19:26

It will help to meditate on this for some hours and when you are ready I will point you in one direction of many.

 

[food4thought]

First of all: Thank you for your patience with me!

Thank you for your patience with me!

Yes - that was my bad. Sorry for that.

Yes - I have to keep that in mind...

No need for apologies... We all fall into this trap from time to time. As you pointed out previously, anthropocentrism is ingrained in us all.

All this false gods do no longer exist, do they?

Well, some never existed outside the imagination of their followers. Some, however, were inspired and even at times empowered by angels who rebelled against God with Satan (we call these fallen angels and demons). Of course, they were only "gods" in the sense that some people worshipped them as such, but they are only created beings.

At the time of the OT and NT there were so many

different gods, different prophets, different
theologies, uncountable miracles together with
all kind of demons and other strange creatures.

Well, even in today's world we see most of those same things. There are still many world religions, many people claiming to speak for God and predict the future, various theologies, and demons. There are miracles reported by people today... some are most likely not truly miraculous, but some are. I'm not sure what you refer to by "strange creatures".

How is one to know which is the right god and

which is not?

Well, you could spend a tremendous amount of time studying every known religion and draw a conclusion that way... but I would suggest a better way. Ask God to come into your life. Pray. Ask Him to make Himself known to you in His own way (I think it would be unwise to presume to tell the God of the universe to jump through your hoop, so to speak) and keep seeking.

I have to 'chew' on that for the time being -

maybe some day I will understand.

It is very difficult for us to accept that we often don't even know what what's best for ourselves, let alone for humanity as a whole. Many times in life we are confronted with that simple truth through our own stupid actions, but to really accept it deep in our hearts... well, some people never do.

Yes there are many interpretations. From fallen

angels to demons etc.

Well, the bottom line is that I think these Nephilim were not completely human, and they were spreading all over the world. God, in order to preserve the human race, wiped out all but a few people who had completely human genetics.

I know it sounds pretty weird, but if you can accept the possibility of demons being able to corrupt the human genome, it explains why He wiped out man, woman, and child in the flood. It also explains why He later ordered Israel to wipe out man, woman, and child of certain people groups. The same thing was happening then (see Genesis 6:4: "... and also after that" and Numbers 13:33).

I see. As to the flood: Even if all the polar ice and

all other ice on earth melts and it would rain for a year - you come nowhere near enough a water level that 'drowns the whole earth...

I am not a geologist by any means, but I am aware that there doesn't appear to be good physical evidence for Noah's flood. I am willing to take this one on faith because there are so many evidences that have demonstrated the dependability of the Bible in other areas. The Bible's description of exactly what physical processes were happening during the flood is limited, and we also must admit (if we are honest) that our scientific knowledge is limited... much greater than in the past, but still limited. I believe in faith that if we had all the evidence, the Biblical record would be vindicated.

I understand you aren't going to be willing to do that, at least not now. Although I would strongly disagree on some of his statements made earlier in the thread, I think SinMachine gave you some good advice... set aside for now the things you don't understand, or have difficulty accepting. Concentrate on the stories and what they are trying to say to us.

On some thoughts we act, others come just

'randomly' and we would never act on them.

True. I believe God will take that into account.

Yes, they were wiped out.

The point I was trying to make is that the Bible makes it very clear in those OT passages specifically who was to be targeted, and they no longer exist. And in the NT, it is made very clear that Christians are commanded to live at peace with everyone as long as it is possible to do so.

[warning: the following sentence contains intense sarcasm and immense understatement!!! May not be suitable for all readers.] The rulers of the church at the time of the Crusades were not exactly models of Christian behavior and ethics. [/intense sarcasm and immense understatement]

Also, since very few people had access to what the Bible actually said in those times, the people were easily manipulated into thinking they were following God's command when they obeyed the churches commands. This led to many terrible things being done in the name of Jesus.

There have been atrocities by those who did have access to the Bible (slavery, Salem witch trials, treatment of American Indians), but they had to really twist what the Bible taught in some areas and ignore what it said in others in order to justify their actions.

Jesus taught us that we should love our neighbor, not kill them. When understood and lived out, Christianity is marked by these traits:

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, (23) gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.