My wife's past

My story is very similar to yours and I know that I will never be my wife first sexual partner, and sometimes it does bother me her past but that's OK because I love her so all I can do is hope to be her last partner until the end of my days.

My wife was honest with her past just like yours was to you, they trusted us with that and for that greatful we must be.

PeachieKeen said:

I think the advice to pray about it is a little crummy and dismissive. I don't think God is going to purge you from remembering or caring. God doesn't want you to helplessly rely on him, he wants you to take an active role with the talents and brains he gave you.

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You are my friend Peachie so I say this of love and respect.... but IF God didnt want us to "helplessly rely on Him" why would He make us so utterly helpless to save ourselves or to be so helpless that we cant even control our own minds in our own strength?

Jesus even instructs us to NOT lean on our own understandings.... which would make us independent with the very intellect that He gave us.

IF He doesnt want us to helplessly rely on Him why would Jesus have said "Apart from God you can do nothing" or say that unless we are like little children we will not enter the kingdom.

Children arent independent, no matter how much a little child may pull away from their parent desiring independence.

Yes, God gave us abilities and brains to be used, but He also created us to be wholly and helplessly dependent on Him. We cant even control the beating of our hearts.... so we are truly helpless and reliant on Him, no matter how much we in our human ego may want to believe that we are independent.

God gave us the intelligence and gifts we have to be used in union with a dependence on Him as those gifts come from, not to be used as tools for independence from Him.

Again I say this out of love to a friend, not to be disrespectful.

As for the OP, your pain is very real, but it's not fair to hold her past against her.

IF you love her, accept that in order for her to become the woman you love and married she had to make many mistakes. If she DIDNT make those mistakes she would be a completely different woman because she missed out on the mistakes that shaped and molded her into the woman she became to say "I do" to you.... the experiences she learned from in those mistakes.

You took her as your wife, that means you take everything she is and will be.... like it or not, everything she was is also part of the equation.

Instead of holding it against her that she made mistakes that you didnt. Focus on the things that those past men do not have. Such as, YOU are the one that has such a great woman to call your bride instead of those men. They can not claim the treasure that YOU saw in your wife that made you say "I do"

Value the treasure that is your wife... not some image in your mind of her being younger/better looking/wilder etc.

That doesnt mean that you have to like the idea of her past, but you DO have to accept it because that past is now part of your flesh.

Having been a virgin it WAS fair for you to desire a wife that also waited.... but you didnt. Your reasons for not reserving that right are your reasons but you cant hold your choice over her head. Especially when 90% of the stuff in your head is likely your own imagination.

Yes, they may have been with your wife when she was younger.... but what do you value more, a past that is magnified by your imagination or the woman that is your wife today?

As much as you are hurt by her past, she did those things before she knew you.... you are hurting her with your judgements, resentments and rejections today.

I'm not saying you are wrong, simply that you made your choice to NOT demand your wife be a virgin.... that choice was yours, now you must make the choice to either take it to God and allow Him to change your heart so you can move past it... or you can push your wife away with resentment.

Life is so much better when you just let go of the pain, in your own past and the past of others. To just love, live and enjoy the time you have now with the ones you love in this breath... not to spend that breath in resentment or jealousy.

PeachieKeen said:

I think the advice to pray about it is a little crummy and dismissive. I don't think God is going to purge you from remembering or caring. God doesn't want you to helplessly rely on him, he wants you to take an active role with the talents and brains he gave you.

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While at times 'just pray' can be dismissive, I never meant it in such a way.
In 2 Corinthians 10:5-6, we are told to take every thought active to obey Christ. For me, especially in combating sinful urges and situations, the best way to do that was through prayer. It would lift my mind/ heart/eyes off of the temptation (or the sinful way anger was being expressed, or whatever the situation was), and take the burden (and thoughts) and place the situation with the Lord. For me - this always helped. While God didn't always purge the anger or the temptation, He got it to a level in that moment where I would be able to handle (walk away, or not speak in sinful anger) and manage it.

curty said:

when I raised this before we got married, although I was delicate, (at least I thought so) she was extremely hurt saying I made her feel like s@#t for what she had done

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I would suggest that both her and you misunderstood what happened there. It was not YOU hurting her, but her own sense of self-condemnation making her feel that bad.

I am not a fan of the concept of self-forgiveness, but situations like this are a huge call to stop condemning yourself (in your case her self) over past sins that have been repented of. And there can be very deep wounding involved that takes a lot of healing; and can be a sore spot for years or decades.

Criticizing a spouse's sex life is a good way to land yourself in the dog house a long time. You need to admit you are wrong and tell her so, because this may be contributing to relationship problems.

PeachieKeen said:

I'm in a similar boat with the whole history thing. I never had been with a guy in any sexual capacity, never had a long relationship before, never saw porn or any naked male... Just worked super hard to guard my heart for my future husband.

The husband I got had been in 3 long relationships, was very sexually active, and had also done ALL the porn. It made me feel awful... Still makes me feel awful. Anyone here saying that's not forgiving of you is being foolish. Choosing to forgive doesn't banish hurt and insecurity. It doesn't keep you from wondering how you compare or feeling so unspecial.

I think the advice to pray about it is a little crummy and dismissive. I don't think God is going to purge you from remembering or caring. God doesn't want you to helplessly rely on him, he wants you to take an active role with the talents and brains he gave you.

So here's my advice as someone who is going through it- don't let yourself think about it. Your mind will wander there naturally at times, but you have to consciously choose to think of other things because thinking of this thing only hurts you. Sometimes lean on your wife and let her comfort you. I don't think it's too much to ask for my husband to reassure me at times when I'm down because of his past haunting me- I need him to tell me sometimes that it's not the same, that I am special, that he would take it back if he could. I try not to approach him in anger in these times because he is forgiven. But I CAN come to him in sadness and vulnerability and ask for him to help me through it.

But the big thing is don't allow your mind to stay on those thoughts. They can really burn a hole in your heart and it can't be changed.

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I agree that the "pray about it" advice isn't really practical.

But here's what gets me about these types of posts...

When I was a kid (19...I guess to me that's a "kid" now) and I got into my first relationship...I was a virgin, she was not. She had been with 10 people...and by various conversations we had I was able to cue in on where this or that had happened...when it had happened...etc.

For the first year or two of our relationship - it REALLY bugged me. Every time we'd drive by places where I had figured out this or that had happened - it would gall at me - so I'd avoid those places. I'd sit in my college classrooms - and count out 10 people in the rows ahead of me. I'd sit there and think "That's how many people have been in her". We'd go out shopping - and something or other would remind me - and I'd clam up and feel badly toward her. Etc...etc...etc.

So, I can sympathize to a good degree on what he and you are talking about.

What I *don't* get about it is the fact that he's married to her without having worked all that stuff out.

After having been with my girlfriend for about 2 years - I came to a point where I decided "This type of stuff is eating me up - and is not healthy. Either I have to figure out a way to get past it - or else I have to break up with her. Because these thoughts are not healthy for me - and eventually it will become unhealthy for her."

And I set about figuring out how to get past it. Eventually I did work it out to a point where I never thought about it any more - and we did eventually get married. In retrospect - I probably should have just broken up with her and not exerted the effort (all things considered...lol) - but there's NO way I would have married her if I felt I'd have been bringing that baggage into the marriage.

That's the part I don't get. Why get married to someone that in many ways there's resentment toward, especially over things that cannot be undone? You can't tell me that it wasn't an issue BEFORE getting married. Was there the thought that it would go away somehow AFTER getting married? That it would just somehow miraculously disappear? Or was there the thought "might as well get married now, and I'll finish working it out later?"

I dunno. That just doesn't make sense to me. Why commit to a lifetime with someone where there is something about them that TRULY irks you, when there are 6.5 billion people running around on this planet? Find someone whose worst problem in your eyes is that they put the toilet paper on the roll the wrong way. Stay away from marrying those that have something that you feel is eating you up inside.

Because now the obligation is made that you have to, for your own sake and theirs, work it out. There's no sin in saying "I can't" - so long as it's followed by then just moving on to someone you can be with without such reservations. Maybe some people just can't move past those things, for whatever reason. Why take that chance and get married to them?

I was able to - so I stupidly did. It wasn't that which broke us up...

That's my only curiosity item in this whole thing...because now for everyone's sake...he HAS to figure out a way to get past it.

How old are you, out of curiosity?

DZoolander said:

How old are you, out of curiosity?

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Profile says he is 34.

DZoolander said:

I agree that the "pray about it" advice isn't really practical.

But here's what gets me about these types of posts...

When I was a kid (19...I guess to me that's a "kid" now) and I got into my first relationship...I was a virgin, she was not. She had been with 10 people...and by various conversations we had I was able to cue in on where this or that had happened...when it had happened...etc.

For the first year or two of our relationship - it REALLY bugged me. Every time we'd drive by places where I had figured out this or that had happened - it would gall at me - so I'd avoid those places. I'd sit in my college classrooms - and count out 10 people in the rows ahead of me. I'd sit there and think "That's how many people have been in her". We'd go out shopping - and something or other would remind me - and I'd clam up and feel badly toward her. Etc...etc...etc.

So, I can sympathize to a good degree on what he and you are talking about.

What I *don't* get about it is the fact that he's married to her without having worked all that stuff out.

After having been with my girlfriend for about 2 years - I came to a point where I decided "This type of stuff is eating me up - and is not healthy. Either I have to figure out a way to get past it - or else I have to break up with her. Because these thoughts are not healthy for me - and eventually it will become unhealthy for her."

And I set about figuring out how to get past it. Eventually I did work it out to a point where I never thought about it any more - and we did eventually get married. In retrospect - I probably should have just broken up with her and not exerted the effort (all things considered...lol) - but there's NO way I would have married her if I felt I'd have been bringing that baggage into the marriage.

That's the part I don't get. Why get married to someone that in many ways there's resentment toward, especially over things that cannot be undone? You can't tell me that it wasn't an issue BEFORE getting married. Was there the thought that it would go away somehow AFTER getting married? That it would just somehow miraculously disappear? Or was there the thought "might as well get married now, and I'll finish working it out later?"

I dunno. That just doesn't make sense to me. Why commit to a lifetime with someone where there is something about them that TRULY irks you, when there are 6.5 billion people running around on this planet? Find someone whose worst problem in your eyes is that they put the toilet paper on the roll the wrong way. Stay away from marrying those that have something that you feel is eating you up inside.

Because now the obligation is made that you have to, for your own sake and theirs, work it out. There's no sin in saying "I can't" - so long as it's followed by then just moving on to someone you can be with without such reservations. Maybe some people just can't move past those things, for whatever reason. Why take that chance and get married to them?

I was able to - so I stupidly did. It wasn't that which broke us up...

That's my only curiosity item in this whole thing...because now for everyone's sake...he HAS to figure out a way to get past it.

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So much to relate to here!
My husband and I were not one another's firsts when we started dating.
That wasn't the issue.
There was baggage that he had issues with, particularly the record of my daughter's father.
We even broke up for awhile because of it.
It turns out that what he thought he couldn't see past was actually something he needed more time to process.
And here we are, nearly two years later, married and expecting our first child.

My wife had been sexually active before we met and I was a virgin. When she first told me I really struggled. She got very defensive and stingy with any of the details but assured me it was in the past and had gotten her life back together with God and she was forgiven.

I was encouraged by friends to cut her some slack because nobody is without sin. I also had looked at porn a few times so who was I to judge?

So we got married and over the course of the first five years the following happened:

• We struggled financially and she threatened to divorce me many times for the stress I was putting her through by not having a better job
• We had two very difficult pregnancies and the sex dwindled to non-existent
• I discovered she had a highly sexual relationship with the man she dated just before me that she met at the church (so much for putting that all in the past after getting her life straight with God)
• She confessed to me that she had two abortions back when she was in college. The fathers were never told and her parents didn't know either.

So I married someone I knew was not a virgin. I was never told about the extent of it and was even lied to about some of it. And combined with the sexlessness and history of HER threatening ME with divorce, I'd say I am perfectly within my right to feel I got majorly screwed by this whole deal.

So anybody want to give me the same superficial patronizing advice you're giving curty? Should I just pray it all away? Oh, yeah. "Go to counseling." Been there. Done that. The counselor told my wife about the abortion recovery group and suggested she join it. He told me to get over myself and that I wasn't going to die without sex.

I wonder what would've happened if I had been the one threatening divorce and shutting off sexual relations with her. What if I had a promiscuous past and had gotten women pregnant leading to two abortions? You think I as the husband would have received the same compassion?

I guess the Counselor thought that God's grace only extends to the wives. Husbands need not apply.

Ricky3369 said:

And combined with the sexlessness and history of HER threatening ME with divorce, I'd say I am perfectly within my right to feel I got majorly screwed by this whole deal.

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Either your wife has anger management issues when her selfish demands are not being met -or- you are abusive to her and when she is hurt she considers leaving you. Sometimes lack of sexual desire on the part of the wife is a response to being not treated nicely. Sometimes the husband does not recognize his abusive treatment of her so does not put her lack of desire together with his treatment of her.

Does your wife indicate why she wants a divorce each time she threatens? Was it after she couldn't have her way that she was demanding or was it after she felt hurt by a behavior of yours? Or it could be both.

Ricky3369 said:

So anybody want to give me the same superficial patronizing advice you're giving curty? Should I just pray it all away? Oh, yeah. "Go to counseling." Been there. Done that.

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I think praying something away is for things you can't change. If you can change them, I think you are responsible to take steps to resolve your problem while you are praying for wisdom, grace and help. If you break your arm, do you just pray it back into place or do you see a doctor to have it set? Your best option is to assess the full truth of the situation and come up with a plan to resolve the problems and restore your relationship.

As a man you are in a much better place to pursue your marriage back than a woman is because generally speaking, women like to be pursued and men who have checked out of a relationship with a woman don't like to be chased by her.

I would ask your wife why she feels she has to threaten you with divorce. Be very careful to receive the information without getting angry. Don't punish her with your anger for being truthful, or else you'll never get the truth from her again.

If she points out behavior you have done that has hurt her, then you need to change that behavior. It doesn't matter if you feel entitled to that behavior, or feel you are right about why you act out in that way - it is hurting her, it is destroying your marriage to the point of divorce, so you need to stop it.

If instead she points out her selfish demands that have gone unfulfilled then here is a negotiating technique to consider, where both of you can be enthusiastic about conflict resolution that is not at the cost of the other person. My husband and I follow this method carefully and we resolve conflict in a peaceful - even enjoyable - way, without getting angry. When we are done resolving the conflict, we feel even more in love with the other person for the care they showed to us:
The Giver & Taker (Marriage Builders®)
The Policy of Joint Agreement (Marriage Builders®)

Ricky3369 said:

He told me to get over myself and that I wasn't going to die without sex.

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This is why many marriage counselors, surprisingly, are often entirely unsuccessful at saving marriages. This is really terrible advice. I wish you could get your money back.

Here is an article written by a marriage counselor/psychologist who has studied the patterns of 10,000's of marriages and summarizes his findings:
The question of the ages: How can a husband receive the sex he...

Here is a more technical description of the event itself. I've particularly enjoyed this psychologist's articles because he puts words to instincts/feelings I have in a way that I am able to better recognize a course of action or a plan. It is likely you already have an instinct for much of this, but perhaps this article will help you coalesce your thoughts in a direction that is helpful:
What's the difference between lovemaking and sex? (Marriage...

Emotional intimacy is essential in a marriage, and making love is one way of expressing that to each other. Often men who feel their marriage is short of sex are actually missing the emotional intimacy and are reaching for that through sex/making love.

Ricky3369 said:

I'd say I am perfectly within my right to feel I got majorly screwed by this whole deal.

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Here's an article about how to complain to your spouse without disrespect and anger, which are two emotions a person often battles with when they feel hurt by another person:

How to Complain in Marriage (Marriage Builders®)

My husband and I complain to each other in this way when complaints are necessary. This technique makes it easy to address a problem when it is a sapling first springing up instead of having to hack down a whole tree and dig up its roots later.

We both know to not take any complaint personally - that we are both full grown adults and both of us have the right to live in our own home with peace and joy, free of abuse and optional discomfort imposed by one to the other. So we actually APPRECIATE complaints so we can adjust behaviors or patterns that bother the other person because most of the time whatever we are doing that bothers the other person is meaningless to the person imposing it and they are happy to change it.

For those conflicts over things that are meaningful to both of us, we follow the process in the article I posted to you above, the Policy of Joint Agreement.

Endeavourer said:

Either your wife has anger management issues when her selfish demands are not being met -or- you are abusive to her and when she is hurt she considers leaving you. Sometimes lack of sexual desire on the part of the wife is a response to being not treated nicely. Sometimes the husband does not recognize his abusive treatment of her so does not put her lack of desire together with his treatment of her.

Does your wife indicate why she wants a divorce each time she threatens? Was it after she couldn't have her way that she was demanding or was it after she felt hurt by a behavior of yours? Or it could be both.

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In the ever-expanding definition of "abuse" I would have to say that the most abusive things I do is get defensive. She complains that I "get defensive" and then I retort "I wouldn't get defensive if you weren't so offensive." I complain that she initiates conflict and I am the bad guy for responding to it by defending myself. So I guess if defending myself from her verbal attacks is "abuse" then I am guilty as charged.

Her reasons for wanting a divorce have to do with the duration of an argument. After 4 minutes she complains of a headache. After 5 minutes she says she is done arguing. If I continue arguing past the point when she has unilaterally declared the argument to be over then the divorce threat comes out. It is a tactic to end the argument because she knows I am terrified of divorce. It is kind of like MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), the nuclear deterrent we used to use with the Soviet Union.

My family often resolved conflict through back-and-forth exchange of arguments that would often lead to resolution but only after an hour or two. Her parents went into separate rooms and pouted for several hours without talking and never verbally resolved anything. With that as her background it is a miracle we get anything resolved.

Ricky3369 said:

In the ever-expanding definition of "abuse" I would have to say that the most abusive things I do is get defensive. She complains that I "get defensive" and then I retort "I wouldn't get defensive if you weren't so offensive." I complain that she initiates conflict and I am the bad guy for responding to it by defending myself. So I guess if defending myself from her verbal attacks is "abuse" then I am guilty as charged.

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So, I define abuse is intentionally causing hurt to another person. It is a very inclusive definition but yet quite practical for stopping marriage wrecking behaviors (anything that causes hurt to your spouse).

Abuse often follows this pattern (gender for example only):
--There is something you want
--Your wife does not want it
--You still want it anyway, over her objections and at her expense (now it becomes a selfish demand)
--To get it, you insist anyway.
--She resists.
--So next you invoke disrespectful judgements against your wife, trying to get your way.
--She still resists and may lob disrespect back at you
--Since she is not caving to disrespect, you now invoke anger in a further bid to override her and get your way. Anger is just a purposeful tactic to hurt the other person and does not always mean a raised voice.
--She may respond by meeting your anger with her anger, or leaving the room, or.....

Ricky3369 said:

Her reasons for wanting a divorce have to do with the duration of an argument.

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So, arguing is a killer for your marriage. This sounds ridiculous, but I'm preaching what I also practice and it works - you can never get into an argument again. Using the Point of Joint Agreement method I linked to, you can resolve conflicts without ever arguing again. My husband and I stick VERY dogmatically to those methods and we've resolved some really tough conflicts where both of us had opposing interests and would have been hurt if we each didn't get what we needed. But, the methodology in that link protects you both from winning (or losing) at the other's expense so the negotiations can be pragmatic and loving without any fear of being railroaded into losing. If you don't fear losing the argument you can be far more transparent with your reasons which will give your wife the tools she needs to work out a resolution with you.

Ricky3369 said:

After 4 minutes she complains of a headache. After 5 minutes she says she is done arguing.

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By doing this she is protecting your marriage. She is letting you know your approach is distasteful or hurtful to her so you can stop. Arguing is terrible for marriages. Once it's an argument the marriage is losing, and therefore you are both losing.

Ricky3369 said:

If I continue arguing past the point when she has unilaterally declared the argument to be over then the divorce threat comes out. It is a tactic to end the argument because she knows I am terrified of divorce. It is kind of like MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction), the nuclear deterrent we used to use with the Soviet Union.

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This is a nuclear weapon. Ouch. Let her know this threat bothers you and ask her if she would be willing to try the Point of Joint Agreement methodology instead of invoking this again. Tell her you'd be willing to stop arguing and try this approach instead.

Always remember to never punish her for her honesty with disrespect or anger when you are negotiating.

Endeavourer said:

Emotional intimacy is essential in a marriage, and making love is one way of expressing that to each other. Often men who feel their marriage is short of sex are actually missing the emotional intimacy and are reaching for that through sex/making love.

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Willard F. Harley, Jr., PhD - "Receiving the sex a husband needs in marriage is as common a problem today as it was two thousand years ago. And as is the case with most ageless problems, the issue is definitely complicated."

This problem is not ageless and the comparison he makes to Corinth is deeply flawed. The Apostle Paul was responding to the prevalence of the gnostic heresy that said that sex within marriage was bad because the spiritual is all that matters and the physical is evil. Our current church culture is influenced by feminism and modern technology that frees wives from household work and empowers them to be economically self sufficient. This swings the power decidedly in the wife's direction and away from husbands. Combined with no-fault divorce and the high rates of child custody given to wives, husbands have lost enormous leverage in their marriages over the past 50 years and this translates into having to beg for sex. The "wifely duty" is extinct (The Wifely Duty - The Atlantic). The church has been emasculated as well. Husbands are lectured from the pulpit about showing sacrificial love to their wives to the point of being willing to die for them. Wives are not told what submission means but told what it does not mean. Submission is a dirty word and pastors avoid it like the plague.

Telling husbands they have to negotiate the existence of sex is like telling wives they are required to persuade their husbands to work and provide for their families. If a wife isn't sufficiently submissive, is a husband allowed to withhold love? Of course not. Husbands are commanded to provide for their families. Wives are commanded to take good care of the home. Both are commanded to give their bodies frequently and freely for sex. NO NEGOTIATION IS REQUIRED. It is supposed to happen. Willingly, lovingly, givingly.

I understand that creating the context of emotional intimacy is a good strategy for improving my sex life. I think Harley is wrong that wives view sex as physical + emotional and husbands view it as physical only. That is an antiquated stereotype that is itself based on the gnostic heresy that says that the physical is inferior to the emotional and, by implication, male sexuality is morally inferior to female sexuality. This is the moral context that rationalizes making husbands negotiate for sex. Mutual giving is necessary. But that is not the same as saying there is no conjugal right. Sex is every bit as much a right for her as it is for me. It is every bit as much my responsibility to satisfy her sexual needs as it is her responsibility to satisfy mine. But not wanting sex at all is not a "sexual need."

Of course, I say nothing of this to my wife. She says she is not an analytical person so I don't bring this up. But she implicitly understands the superior strength of her position. Why else would she so cavalierly use divorce as a weapon to end arguments if she didn't implicitly understand that she had far less to lose than I did?

Endeavourer said:

By doing this she is protecting your marriage. She is letting you know your approach is distasteful or hurtful to her so you can stop. Arguing is terrible for marriages.

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My wife is definitely not protecting our marriage. She is protecting herself from the natural consequences of her horrible and abusive disrespect to me. Your boilerplate pro-woman bias is obvious. Please start thinking outside of your narrow anti-male box before engaging me in a conversation next time.

Ricky, your post was a lot to take in. You see women as the victors in the complimentary philosophy as you described it, but I can assure you there is a perspective from our shoes where we are by far the biggest losers in the whole scheme.

As for those sermons you reference on what submission is not - I never heard such a thing. I've only heard sermons about all the submission required of women to their 'spiritual authority'. We are told to be subject to both our husband and also besides him, to our fathers, to our pastors, etc. My pastor had even picked the "wives submit yourselves" verse from Ephesians 5 for my wedding ceremony because he had the sense that I might not be in a submissive enough frame of mind.

The damage done to both men and women with extreme and sacrificial positions demanded by complimentarianism of either the men (as you described) or the women (as I experienced) are very damaging to the losing party.

Since you read my link I thought it only right that I read yours. The Atlantic piece was a hard article to get through since I couldn't identify with any of it. I've been a full time career woman and mother of many children for 30 years. Sometimes when I was grocery shopping people would ask me if I had a daycare. None of the excuses the Atlantic author relates hit home with me, even as busy or demanding as my career was, nor as busy as my home was. When my kids were teenagers I could have 8, sometimes more, taxi mom errands in one evening while waiting for them to get their licenses - after working all day. I didn't hire housekeepers or cooks, so there was that going on too.

The reasons in the article felt to be more of a cover for an emotionally disconnected relationship. **When** I felt an emotional connection to my husband I was just as eager for a physical connection as he was. Being in love is like an addiction; you almost always have a spare burst of energy to indulge an addiction.

Regardless of whether you agree with Dr. Harley's suggestion that mismatched sexual drives is a problem going back to ancient times, what did you think of his methodical solution? It is derived from the study of 10,000's of marriages and of what worked for the ones stayed in love and what failed for the others.

Also, this:

Ricky3369 said:

But she implicitly understands the superior strength of her position. Why else would she so cavalierly use divorce as a weapon to end arguments if she didn't implicitly understand that she had far less to lose than I did?

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is a disrespectful judgement. You're assuming to know her mind where, according to your comment, she has not explicitly said so. You're poisoning your viewpoint with toxic assumptions. It's likely her heart will break just as painfully as yours will if your marriage disintegrates.

Ricky3369 said:

Your boilerplate pro-woman bias is obvious. Please start thinking outside of your narrow anti-male box before engaging me in a conversation next time.

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The methods, observations and philosophies that I've been describing to you were developed by a man. My husband and I carefully apply them to our marriage. We are still as star struck with each other as we were initially. We refer to our anniversaries as how many years long our honeymoon has been. I just asked him if he could see an anti-male, pro-woman bias in me, and he was astonished to hear someone thought so.

Because of my obviously and gloriously happy marriage as well as my extensive study on the topic, other couples have approached me for help so they can overcome their marital unhappiness. Never has any husband accused me of being anti-male or pro-woman.

I am vigorously pro-marriage and therefore, out of care for all marriages, I talk straight to the person approaching me for help (except in cases of a person receiving abusive behavior such that their safety, whether emotional or physical, is in question). Well, I do talk straight to them, too, about how they need to either get out of there or change the locks until the other person is willing to change their behavior and provide a safe partnership.

On the other hand, your narrative is very much pro-Ricky. But it's more than that. It's pro-Ricky's distorted perceptions and assumptions. It has been hard to read because I hear so much pain in your words, but I also sense that you are closed off to see things outside of your now cynical world view.

It's a path I also had to travel the hard way, and there's not much anyone can do to help you look outside of your viewpoint until you are ready for it. I spent several years identifying and dissecting the filters I was suffering under from the other extreme end of the complimentarian theology you describe. I was taught I had to submit to abuse, without sinning by having 'bitterness' about it, and perhaps if I suffered beautifully enough some day my suffering might be sanctified to my abusive husband's salvation. I endured under that for 25 years until my health broke down and my body could not suffer any further. That was my first marriage. Even my patriarchal pastor finally told me I could not endure it any further. But then the same pastor almost excommunicated me several months ago for not submitting to my spiritual authority (him) since I am a woman, so yea, he's not pro-woman at all. Can you see that there is a different - and valid - perspective from a woman's point of view to twisting the gender doctrines that are also entrapping you?

When you are ready to consider that your behaviors may be affecting your marriage, check out the guidance forum on marriagebuilders.com It is staffed by seasoned, trained volunteers under the supervision of Dr. Harley. They provide step by step help to people ready to change their behaviors to turn their marriages around. Dr. Harley is personally available for comment or help as needed. He posts his whole knowledge base and runs his forum all for free, as a ministry to help others benefit from his studies and successes in helping couples stay in love.

Well, Ricky, if your way around an argument with your wife is anything like what we saw playing out here, I get why she has an issue with your behavior and attitude. You’re not exactly open to any viewpoint beyond that has her as the bad guy and you as the victim. Her not opening up to you certainly isn’t great, but you’re not exactly what one would call “approachable.”

At the end of the day, you can only change your behavior, not hers. Throwing in her face that her goods are not as advertised is insulting and pointless. It won’t fix that she didn’t tell you, it certainly won’t make her love you more, trust you more, or make her want to have sex with you.

Now I think Marriage Builders useless and Dr. Harley is a quack, but there is something to be said for seeking out solo and couples counseling. One helps you understand her better, the other helps you understand you better.