My theology

[Strong in Him]

(continued)

See how you and others oppose the revelation of truth that God has chosen to reveal to someone even if weak, uneducated , simple, trusting Jesus Daily even in and thru pain?

What truth?
And how do you know that I'm not weak, in pain or not trusting Jesus?

Often churches, or assemblies, may be given a chance to believe the truth from someone they don't consider worthy of listening to -

?? How do you, or anyone else, judge that someone is "not worth listening to"?

and the church or assembly or forum members choose so badly to oppose the truth revealed. tch tch tch.....

I don't understand what you mean by this.

There is a time to walk alone, and a time to meet in small group and talk about Jesus.

Of course.
No one wants to be with other people 24/7; solitude is good. But it is also difficult to be a Christian in isolation. I said that.

He knows the truth.

What truth?

Those who love the truth realize this when he posts it.

Really?
The implication that a person who doesn't agree with a teaching is either not spiritual or does not have/recognise the truth is usually one made by cult leaders.
And why are you saying these things on his behalf instead of letting him answer his post for himself?

Remember truth is not promoted nor protected nor encouraged on the internet, so he is all the more bold in Jesus to give his testimony in Jesus as Jesus leads him.

I'm sorry but anyone can post anything that they like on here and then say "Jesus is leading me".
How do you know that Jesus is not leading me to challenge these things? How do you know that I am not writing the truth?

 

[ozso]

Somebody wise once said that every protestant is his own Pope. What an accurate observation it was!

David's Psalms carry a similar 'I, me, my' tone.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Jesus never came as a King? He did when He fulfilled the Prophecy in Zachariah 9:4-9 at His Triumphant Entry.

“Behold, the Lord will dispossess her And cast her wealth into the sea; And she will be consumed with fire. Ashkelon will see it and be afraid. Gaza too will writhe in great pain; Also Ekron, for her expectation has been confounded. Moreover, the king will perish from Gaza, And Ashkelon will not be inhabited. And a mongrel race will dwell in Ashdod, And I will cut off the pride of the Philistines. And I will remove their blood from their mouth And their detestable things from between their teeth. Then they also will be a remnant for our God, And be like a clan in Judah, And Ekron like a Jebusite. But I will camp around My house because of an army, Because of him who passes by and returns; And no oppressor will pass over them anymore, For now I have seen with My eyes. Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”
‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭9‬:‭4‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭34‬-‭39‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

““I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12‬:‭49‬-‭50‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

No one can see God’s glory in our fleshly body? We’ve seen His glory in multiple ways, thru His creation, thru His ministry, thru His sacrifice, thru His miracles, and thru His gospel. Before Christ’s ministry and His gospel nobody knew who He was.

You still have the problem with people being judged according to what they eat which directly contradicts Colossians 2:16. You never addressed this contradiction.

I think you are misunderstanding. Jesus is always a King, but He did not come as a King the first time. Jesus when He came the first time, did not come in all His Glory to rule, He came as Man, the Jews were expecting a King and why they refused to believe Jesus was God. Jesus in the Second Coming will be in all His Glory as King to rule the nations forever and ever. Many believe Jesus will come to rule this earth and will be deceived just like the Jews were at His first coming.

I have addressed Col 2:16 too many times to count, people hang on this one out of context verse which the context is not in this one verse starts at v14. It’s not about eating food, it’s about food offerings and sacrifices parallel verses are Heb 9:10 and read further for context and Eph 2:15 and Hebrews 10. Sadly you believe out of context scriptures of Paul that came with a warning 2 Peter 3:15-16 over the plain teachings of a thus saith the Lord. God blessed and made holy the Sabbath day at Creation no human can take away God’s blessings and all the thus saith the Lords tell us to keep, not to profane, came with a death penalty just like murder, just like adultery for doing so, the temple was destroyed for breaking the Sabbath. Jesus saying it profanes Him in doing so plus all the thus saith the Lords telling us how He blesses and sanctifies us when we keep - Jesus never took that away not once, said it was made for man, can’t be more plain then this. Jesus kept the Sabbath, He in His own Words said it will kept by His faithful decades after His Cross and for eternity. If one doesn’t want to keep the Sabbath day holy now, God will never force one to, it’s why His Judgement is one of love.

Jesus claims in His own Words He is Lord of the Sabbath, who gives anyone the right to get rid of it, it essentially means getting rid of the One Who gave it as it points us to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 the One we are to worship Rev 14:7 its a sign between God and His people Eze 20:20 He is our Creator Exo 20:11 and a sign He is our re-Creator Eze 20:12 following what Jesus kept and told us to, If you love Me, keep My commandments, the Sabbath is a commandment of God thus saith the Lord Exo 20:8-11 written by the Authority of God Exo 31:18 there is no Greater Authroity than He. Man cannot edit God and honestly the audacity of doing this and to think its ok, I do not think its going to work out so well. God told us it would happen Dan 7:25 those who didn’t keep during their trial it didn’t work out Eze 20:13 we are told not to follow the same path of disobedience Heb 4:11 Heb 4:6

 

[BNR32FAN]

I think you are misunderstanding. Jesus is always a King, but He did not come as a Kong the first time. Jesus when He came the first time, did not come in all His Glory to rule, He came as Man, the Jews were expecting a King and why they refused to believed Jesus was God. Jesus in the Second Coming will be in all His Glory as King to rule the nations forever and ever. Many believe Jesus will come to rule this earth and will be deceived just like the Jews were at His first coming.

I have addressed Col 2:16 too many times to count, people hang on this one out of context verse which the context is not in this one verse starts at v14. It’s not about eating food, it’s about food offerings and sacrifices parallel verses are Heb 9:10 and read further for context and Col 2:15 and Hebrews 10. Sadly you believe out of context scriptures of Paul that came with a warning 2 Peter 3:15-16 over the plain teachings of a thus saith the Lord. God blessed and made holy the Sabbath day at Creation no human can take away God’s blessings and all the thus saith the Lords tell us to keep, not to profane, came with a death paltry for doing so, the temple was destroyed for doing so, Jesus saying it profanes Him in doing so plus all the thus saith the Lords telling us how He blesses and sanctifies us when we do keep - Jesus never took that away not once, said it was made for man, can’t be more plain then this. Jesus kept the Sabbath, He in His own Words said it will kept by His faithful decades after His Cross and for eternity. If one doesn’t want to keep the Sabbath day holy now, God will never force one to, it’s why His Judgement is one of love.

Jesu claims in His own Words He is Lord of the Sabbath, who gives anyone the right to get rid of it, it essentially means getting rid of the One Who gave it.

Colossians 2:16 doesn’t get any more plainly written. The only reason you don’t see it as being plainly written is because you have to twist it in order to conform it to coincide with your theology. The plainly written context of Colossians 2:16 is echoed in Romans 14 where Paul is 1000% crystal clear that he is referring to food and not sacrifice offerings.

“I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭14‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In Colossians 2:16 Paul uses the words “food and drink” not sacrifices or offerings. So now how do you get around Romans 14 which is clearly written about eating food?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Colossians 2:16 doesn’t get any more plainly written. The only reason you don’t see it as being plainly written is because you have to twist it in order to conform it to coincide with your theology. The plainly written context of Colossians 2:16 is echoed in Romans 14 where Paul is 1000% crystal clear that he is referring to food and not sacrifice offerings.

“I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭14‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In Colossians 2:16 Paul uses the words “food and drink” not sacrifices or offerings. So now how do you get around Romans 14 which is clearly written about eating food?

To try to connect the weekly Sabbath to Col 2:14-17 is essentially saying God was against man from Creation because thats when the weekly Sabbath started. Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 This essentially is an attack on the character of God. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, the Hebrew word of man here means Adam, the Greek, mankind. Man was made before the first Sabbath that God kept, man was made in God’s image and likeness. The Sabbath points us back to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 God’s Sabbath was meant to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify Eze 20:12 and a sign between God and man Eze 20:20 and is the holy day of the Lord thy God, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13


There is more than one Sabbath in the scriptures, and there is a warning in scripture about Paul's writings, so we need to study his writings very carefully and make sure we are not using them to teach against what Jesus taught because if we miss what he is trying to say, it comes with some steep warnings, we should take serious.

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


So lets examine Col 2:16-17.

The context starts before this so lets bring it in so we can try to figure what Paul is saying here and is he teaching something different than Jesus taught, or is there more to the story than the single verse everyone uses.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So we know from these verses Paul is referring to the following

1. something handwritten
2. ordinances
3. was contrary and against
4. nailed to the cross

So is this referring to any of the Ten Commandments?

1. Was the Ten Commandments handwritten?
No: Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

2. Was the Ten Commandments called ordinances?
NO: God said: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

3. Was the Sabbath contrary and against?
NO: Holy and blessed by God is not the definition of contrary and against
Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

4. Was the Sabbath nailed to the Cross?
No! Jesus in His own Words taught the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful decades after the Cross and until the second coming of Jesus Christ Mat 24:20 The Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth for His saints Isa 66:22-23

So what is Paul referring to.

There is more than one sabbath in the scripture and Paul made it so clear what he was referring to never countermanding Christ on what He taught or how He lived and what even Paul taught as he kept every Sabbath faithful as well Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 etc

Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Paul is referring to what was written in the book of the law handwritten by Moses set outside the ark as witness against. Read Col 2:14KJV as the context fits perfectly

The Ten Commandments finger written by God was placed inside the ark of the covenant and we are blessed when keeping Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14

What were the ordinances


Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.";
Colossians 2:14 "handwriting of ordinances";

Ephesians 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances";

Hebrews 9:1 "... also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

Hebrews 9:10 "... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances ...";

Ezekiel 43:18 "... These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon."

Luke 1:6 "... walking in all the commandments and ordinances ...";

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.";

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."]

It had to do with all the sacrificial system, animal sacrifices feast days that some were also called sabbath(s) written in the book of the law- that all pointed to Jesus and His great sacrifice - the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments

Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly"new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "My [as in God's] Sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by

The weekly Sabbath can’t be a shadow of anything because it points to Creation when God made everything according to His perfect plan before the fall of mankind.

You can read more about this in detail here COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

 

[The Liturgist]

This is true, and it was a major problem I had before finding Orthodoxy. It was also a problem the founder of my childhood denomination had, and in response he with a few others developed a methodical approach to daily prayer, twice weekly fasting, and weekly communion, but despite its name, the denomination didn't preserve John Wesley's emphasis on the need for these things, at least not with regularity.

In contrast, there is a much stronger, living tradition of daily prayer and Scripture reading, fasting, and general spiritual and moral discipline in the more traditional churches like Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as well as a few traditional Protestant denominations. The faith isn't supposed to be something you only practice on Sundays.

Indeed I was also baptized UMC and became Orthodox. Thus I feel we are kindred spirits in that respect. Although I am glad I got in before the rush! These days there are so many catechumens we might start having to do mass baptisms on Holy Saturday once more (that’s why our Byzantine Rite and the pre-1955 Roman Rite have 14 and 12 prophecies of Christ from the Old Testament read at the Vesperal Divine Liturgy and the Paschal Vigil Mass, which like our Liturgy, was done in the morning - these were read while the sacrament of Holy Baptism was performed. This is also why there are the litanies during Holy Week liturgies for Energumens - “Those about to receive illumination”, catechumens slated to be baptized. Fun liturgical facts. By the way you know the Triodion and our other liturgical books are available online and in multiple versions.

 

[BNR32FAN]

To try to connect the weekly Sabbath to Col 2:14-17 is essentially saying God was against man from Creation because thats when the weekly Sabbath started. This essentially is an attack on the character of God. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, the Hebrew word of man here means Adam, the Greek, mankind. Man was made before the first Sabbath that God kept, man made in God’s image and likeness


There is more than one Sabbath in the scriptures, and there is a warning in scripture about Paul's writings, so we need to study his writings very carefully and make sure we are not using them to teach against what Jesus taught because if we miss what he is trying to say, it comes with some steep warnings, we should take serious.

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


So lets examine Col 2:16-17.

The context starts before this so lets bring it in so we can try to figure what Paul is saying here and is he teaching something different than Jesus taught, or is there more to the story than the single verse everyone uses.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So we know from these verses Paul is referring to the following

1. something handwritten
2. ordinances
3. was contrary and against
4. nailed to the cross

So is this referring to any of the Ten Commandments?

1. Was the Ten Commandments handwritten?
No: Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

2. Was the Ten Commandments called ordinances?
NO: God said: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

3. Was the Sabbath contrary and against?
NO: Holy and blessed by God is not the definition of contrary and against
Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

4. Was the Sabbath nailed to the Cross?
No! Jesus in His own Words taught the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful decades after the Cross and until the second coming of Jesus Christ Mat 24:20 The Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth for His saints Isa 66:22-23

So what is Paul referring to.

There is more than one sabbath in the scripture and Paul made it so clear what he was referring to never countermanding Christ on what He taught or how He lived and what even Paul taught as he kept every Sabbath faithful as well Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 etc

Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Paul is referring to what was written in the book of the law handwritten by Moses set outside the ark as witness against. Read Col 2:14KJV as the context fits perfectly

The Ten Commandments finger written by God was placed inside the ark of the covenant and we are blessed when keeping Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14

What were the ordinances


Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.";
Colossians 2:14 "handwriting of ordinances";

Ephesians 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances";

Hebrews 9:1 "... also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

Hebrews 9:10 "... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances ...";

Ezekiel 43:18 "... These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon."

Luke 1:6 "... walking in all the commandments and ordinances ...";

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.";

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."]

It had to do with all the sacrificial system, animal sacrifices feast days that some were also called sabbath(s) written in the book of the law- that all pointed to Jesus and His great sacrifice - the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments

Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly"new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "My [as in God's] Sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by

The weekly Sabbath can’t be a shadow of anything because it points to Creation when God made everything according to His perfect plan before the fall of mankind.

You can read more about this in detail here COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

The way you quote 2 Peter 3:15 is like using it as a get out of scripture free card as if you can apply it to anyone’s interpretation of scripture and it somehow proves their interpretation is incorrect.

2. Was the Ten Commandments called ordinances?
NO: God said: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Nope I’ve already proven you wrong on this before by quoting Deuteronomy 5 and Numbers 28.

“Then Moses summoned all Israel and said to them: “Hear, O Israel, the statutes and the ordinances which I am speaking today in your hearing, that you may learn them and observe them carefully. The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, with all those of us alive here today. The Lord spoke to you face to face at the mountain from the midst of the fire, while I was standing between the Lord and you at that time, to declare to you the word of the Lord; for you were afraid because of the fire and did not go up the mountain. He said, ‘I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. ‘You shall have no other gods before Me. ‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. ‘You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain. ‘Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day. ‘Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, that your days may be prolonged and that it may go well with you on the land which the Lord your God gives you. ‘You shall not murder. ‘You shall not commit adultery. ‘You shall not steal. ‘You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. ‘You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, and you shall not desire your neighbor’s house, his field or his male servant or his female servant, his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.’ “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly at the mountain from the midst of the fire, of the cloud and of the thick gloom, with a great voice, and He added no more. He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭5‬:‭1‬-‭22‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice that Moses tells them to hear the STATUTES AND ORDINANCES which he is speaking to them today and he ONLY MENTIONS THE 10 COMMANDMENTS.

 

[BNR32FAN]

To try to connect the weekly Sabbath to Col 2:14-17 is essentially saying God was against man from Creation because thats when the weekly Sabbath started. Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 This essentially is an attack on the character of God. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, the Hebrew word of man here means Adam, the Greek, mankind. Man was made before the first Sabbath that God kept, man was made in God’s image and likeness. The Sabbath points us back to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 God’s Sabbath was meant to bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify Eze 20:12 and a sign between God and man Eze 20:20 and is the holy day of the Lord thy God, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13


There is more than one Sabbath in the scriptures, and there is a warning in scripture about Paul's writings, so we need to study his writings very carefully and make sure we are not using them to teach against what Jesus taught because if we miss what he is trying to say, it comes with some steep warnings, we should take serious.

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.


So lets examine Col 2:16-17.

The context starts before this so lets bring it in so we can try to figure what Paul is saying here and is he teaching something different than Jesus taught, or is there more to the story than the single verse everyone uses.


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

So we know from these verses Paul is referring to the following

1. something handwritten
2. ordinances
3. was contrary and against
4. nailed to the cross

So is this referring to any of the Ten Commandments?

1. Was the Ten Commandments handwritten?
No: Exo 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.

2. Was the Ten Commandments called ordinances?
NO: God said: 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

3. Was the Sabbath contrary and against?
NO: Holy and blessed by God is not the definition of contrary and against
Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. 2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

4. Was the Sabbath nailed to the Cross?
No! Jesus in His own Words taught the Sabbath would be kept by His faithful decades after the Cross and until the second coming of Jesus Christ Mat 24:20 The Sabbath continues in the New Heaven and New Earth for His saints Isa 66:22-23

So what is Paul referring to.

There is more than one sabbath in the scripture and Paul made it so clear what he was referring to never countermanding Christ on what He taught or how He lived and what even Paul taught as he kept every Sabbath faithful as well Acts 15:21 Acts 18:4 etc

Where does Paul get the words "... against us ... contrary to us..." from, in the context of the passages he is quoting from in the Old Testament, and what does it mean there?

Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:28 KJB - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Paul is referring to what was written in the book of the law handwritten by Moses set outside the ark as witness against. Read Col 2:14KJV as the context fits perfectly

The Ten Commandments finger written by God was placed inside the ark of the covenant and we are blessed when keeping Isa 56:2 Rev 22:14

What were the ordinances


Deuteronomy 31:26 KJB - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.";
Colossians 2:14 "handwriting of ordinances";

Ephesians 2:15 "the law of commandments contained in ordinances";

Hebrews 9:1 "... also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.";

Hebrews 9:10 "... meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances ...";

Ezekiel 43:18 "... These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon."

Luke 1:6 "... walking in all the commandments and ordinances ...";

Numbers 9:12 "They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances of the passover they shall keep it.";

2 Chronicles 33:8 "... to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses."]

It had to do with all the sacrificial system, animal sacrifices feast days that some were also called sabbath(s) written in the book of the law- that all pointed to Jesus and His great sacrifice - the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world. There is no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments

Colossians 2 KJB, parallels Ephesians 2 KJB, and Hebrews 9-10 KJB. The language is the same. The "ordinances" in Colossians 2 deals with "shadows", such as the daily "meat and drink" offerings of a worldly sanctuary and carnal ordinances, the seasonal "feast days", the monthly"new moons", and the year based "sabbaths", in the singular, every 7 and 50th years, as Paul is citing Psalms 98:1-3; and Ezekiel 45:17 KJB with other texts.

The Sabbath of the LORD thy God is always called "My [as in God's] Sabbaths", and the others in Leviticus 23:4 onward are called "your [the peoples] sabbaths" [Leviticus 26:35 KJB] which are "beside [given in addition to] the sabbaths of the LORD" [Leviticus 23:38 KJB]. The Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath of the 4th Commandment, are "light" [Proverbs 6:23, Isaiah 8:20, 51:4 KJB], never a "shadow", are "spiritual" [Romans 7:14 KJB], never "carnal" [Hebrews 9:10 KJB].

Colossians 2:14 - "ordinances"
Ephesians 2:15 - "law of commandments contained in ordinances"
Hebrews 9:1 - "ordinances of divine service"
Hebrews 9:10 - "carnal ordinances"

Colossians 2:16 - "in meat, or in drink" [offerings]
Hebrews 9:10 - "meats and drinks" [offerings]

Colossians 2:12 - "also ye are risen with him"
Ephesians 2:6 - "raised us up together"

Colossians 2:16 - "a shadow of things to come"
Ephesians 2:7 - "in the ages to come"
Hebrews 9:11 - "of good things to come"
Hebrews 10:1 - "the law having a shadow of good things to come", "those sacrifices", "offered year by

The weekly Sabbath can’t be a shadow of anything because it points to Creation when God made everything according to His perfect plan before the fall of mankind.

You can read more about this in detail here COL 2:14-17 The REAL truth from God's Word

Now I will demonstrate again that in Numbers 28 God COMMANDED the Israelites to observe the New Moon feasts, sacrifices, and Sabbath days.

“Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be careful to present My offering, My food for My offerings by fire, of a soothing aroma to Me, at their appointed time.’ You shall say to them, ‘This is the offering by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs one year old without defect as a continual burnt offering every day. You shall offer the one lamb in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a fourth of a hin of beaten oil. It is a continual burnt offering which was ordained in Mount Sinai as a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Then the drink offering with it shall be a fourth of a hin for each lamb, in the holy place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord. The other lamb you shall offer at twilight; as the grain offering of the morning and as its drink offering, you shall offer it, an offering by fire, a soothing aroma to the Lord. ‘Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering. ‘Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for each bull; and two-tenths of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for the one ram; and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering for each lamb, for a burnt offering of a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year. And one male goat for a sin offering to the Lord; it shall be offered with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. ‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the Lord’s Passover. On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall present an offering by fire, a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram and seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect. For their grain offering, you shall offer fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for a bull and two-tenths for the ram. A tenth of an ephah you shall offer for each of the seven lambs; and one male goat for a sin offering to make atonement for you. You shall present these besides the burnt offering of the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering. After this manner you shall present daily, for seven days, the food of the offering by fire, of a soothing aroma to the Lord; it shall be presented with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. On the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. ‘Also on the day of the first fruits, when you present a new grain offering to the Lord in your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall offer a burnt offering for a soothing aroma to the Lord: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs one year old; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each bull, two-tenths for the one ram, a tenth for each of the seven lambs; also one male goat to make atonement for you. Besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, you shall present them with their drink offerings. They shall be without defect.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭28‬:‭1‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The words commandments, statutes, and ordinances are used interchangeably in the scriptures and NOT only in reference to the 10 commandments but also in reference to sacrifice offerings, and sabbath day observances. So you’re dead wrong about this statement.

And in all this you still didn’t address Romans 14 and how it doesn’t echo what Paul said in Colossians 2:16 in regards to food and drink. That was the whole point of the post you’re replying to here.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Now I will demonstrate again that in Numbers 28 God COMMANDED the Israelites to observe the New Moon feasts, sacrifices, and Sabbath days.

“Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Command the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘You shall be careful to present My offering, My food for My offerings by fire, of a soothing aroma to Me, at their appointed time.’ You shall say to them, ‘This is the offering by fire which you shall offer to the Lord: two male lambs one year old without defect as a continual burnt offering every day. You shall offer the one lamb in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight; also a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a grain offering, mixed with a fourth of a hin of beaten oil. It is a continual burnt offering which was ordained in Mount Sinai as a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Then the drink offering with it shall be a fourth of a hin for each lamb, in the holy place you shall pour out a drink offering of strong drink to the Lord. The other lamb you shall offer at twilight; as the grain offering of the morning and as its drink offering, you shall offer it, an offering by fire, a soothing aroma to the Lord. ‘Then on the sabbath day two male lambs one year old without defect, and two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil as a grain offering, and its drink offering: This is the burnt offering of every sabbath in addition to the continual burnt offering and its drink offering. ‘Then at the beginning of each of your months you shall present a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram, seven male lambs one year old without defect; and three-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for each bull; and two-tenths of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering, for the one ram; and a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil for a grain offering for each lamb, for a burnt offering of a soothing aroma, an offering by fire to the Lord. Their drink offerings shall be half a hin of wine for a bull and a third of a hin for the ram and a fourth of a hin for a lamb; this is the burnt offering of each month throughout the months of the year. And one male goat for a sin offering to the Lord; it shall be offered with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. ‘Then on the fourteenth day of the first month shall be the Lord’s Passover. On the fifteenth day of this month shall be a feast, unleavened bread shall be eaten for seven days. On the first day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall present an offering by fire, a burnt offering to the Lord: two bulls and one ram and seven male lambs one year old, having them without defect. For their grain offering, you shall offer fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for a bull and two-tenths for the ram. A tenth of an ephah you shall offer for each of the seven lambs; and one male goat for a sin offering to make atonement for you. You shall present these besides the burnt offering of the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering. After this manner you shall present daily, for seven days, the food of the offering by fire, of a soothing aroma to the Lord; it shall be presented with its drink offering in addition to the continual burnt offering. On the seventh day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. ‘Also on the day of the first fruits, when you present a new grain offering to the Lord in your Feast of Weeks, you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no laborious work. You shall offer a burnt offering for a soothing aroma to the Lord: two young bulls, one ram, seven male lambs one year old; and their grain offering, fine flour mixed with oil: three-tenths of an ephah for each bull, two-tenths for the one ram, a tenth for each of the seven lambs; also one male goat to make atonement for you. Besides the continual burnt offering and its grain offering, you shall present them with their drink offerings. They shall be without defect.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭28‬:‭1‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The words commandments, statutes, and ordinances are used interchangeably in the scriptures and NOT only in reference to the 10 commandments but also in reference to sacrifice offerings, and sabbath day observances. So you’re dead wrong about this statement.

And in all this you still didn’t address Romans 14 and how it doesn’t echo what Paul said in Colossians 2:16 in regards to food and drink. That was the whole point of the post you’re replying to here.

No they are not it says commandments and ordinances Neh 9:13 so not the same as already shown. Handwritten by man is not finger written by God. If you want to believe God made the Sabbath at Creation to be contrary and against man nothing I can say will help. Take care.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No they are not it says commandments and ordinances Neh 9:13 so not the same as already shown. Handwritten by man is not finger written by God. If you want to believe God made the Sabbath at Creation to be contrary and against man nothing I can say will help. Take care.

Yet Abraham kept God’s commandments before the 10 commandments were written on stone tablets. And Nehemiah doesn’t say that commandments are not ordinances and statutes, you’re just desperately trying to make that claim even tho I’ve already demonstrated that the 10 commandments were in fact called statutes and ordinances in Deuteronomy 5. Why does Moses refer to the 10 commandments in Deuteronomy 5 as ordinances and statutes? You can ignore this fact if you want to but when you make this claim in the forum I’m going to present this evidence against it every time I see it. You can refuse to accept it but it still doesn’t change what is written in Deuteronomy 5.

And again you still haven’t explained why Paul said that we are allowed to eat all foods in Romans 14. He specifically said that they do not make us unclean.

And God resting on the 7th day of creation is not a commandment that was given to man before Mt Sinai. Genesis 2 is recording what God did on the 7th day there’s no commandment to man to rest on the 7th day recorded anywhere in scripture before Mt Sinai nor is there any record of anyone observing the sabbath other than God Himself before Mt Sinai.

 

[soldier of light]

So you think that you, alone, have the truth?

I have the truth I need

 

[soldier of light]

Jesus asked many questions that are hard to answer; are you unconcerned about those, also?

The Holy Spirit leads us into all truth. He inspired the Scriptures to be written and can interpret them, and show us how to apply them. But there are many things that the Spirit does not teach, like OT Hebrew and NT Greek. The Bible was written in these languages so it is interesting, and important, to find out what the authors were really saying and what their words meant.
The Holy Spirit also does not teach us what the culture was like in Bible times; what traditions and beliefs they had, and so on.


You don't go to church partly because others may disagree with you?
At best, that sounds like someone who is so insecure and unsure of their beliefs that they could not cope with being challenged.
At worst, it sounds like someone who has an attitude of "I know I'm right; I don't need you."

How do you know that going to a church and sharing/stating your beliefs won't challenge others, cause them to see/do things in a new way and grow in their faith and/or Christian witness?

That's a shame.
Could you find, or ask for, a quieter service? There may be others, like you, who would benefit from it.

Sometimes walking alone is unavoidable, but it is not meant to be our general practice.

You don't understand.

 

[soldier of light]

No, we are sitting alone in front of computer screens, in different counties, different countries and different time zones.
It's fine and it's better than nothing - I only joined these forums when I was chronically ill and didn't often get to church. But having a cup of tea, a chat, a prayer and a hug from someone who cares, is far better. Plus, you may be helping and encouraging them. If you can get to church and keep going despite your problems, they may be encouraged to believe that they can too.

Im siting here with Jesus

 

[Infirmus]

David's Psalms carry a similar 'I, me, my' tone.

Well, they were written around 1000 BC, so back then there was no Pope to guide the Faithful.

 

[linux.poet]

MOD HAT ON​

This thread is permanently closed. Discussions about whether the Sabbath should be kept or not do not belong in General Theology, they belong in the Sabbath and the Law forum.​

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