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My Rock Challenge

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by AV1611VET, Sep 15, 2011.

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  1. selfinflikted

    selfinflikted Under Deck

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    Not exactly. What I meant was - we have rock created ex nihilo, let's say, 200 years ago. It was created with an "embedded age" of 10,000 years. By all means available to us, we have to conclude that the rock is 10,000 years old even though it's true age is 200 years old. Ergo, we'd never know the "true age" of the rock.
     
  2. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

    +5,953
    Agnostic
    We would date the rock with several parent-daughter pairs to confirm the age. It would take a conscious effort on the part of the rock creator to make sure that all of these parent-daughter pairs produce the same date. IOW, it would require an overt attempt to fool people.

    We could use a murder scene as an analogy. Could an all powerful deity create a murder scene ex nihilo, complete with the fingerprints, DNA, fibers, and hair from Katy Couric all over and around the murder victim? Sure could. Does this mean that we should free every person who has been convicted on the weight of forensic evidence? Obviously not. Why? Because fantasies do not trump reality.
     
  3. Delphiki

    Delphiki Well-Known Member

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    ...but "evidence can take a hike."
     
  4. super animator

    super animator Dreamer

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    That's what it really comes down to every time AV challenge was defeated. It's nothing more than a stroke of his ego.
     
  5. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    It encourages him.
     
  6. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    So truth is a new premise in this hypothetical? Not surprising.

    Indeed -- for the purposes of this hypothetical, it's actual age doesn't matter, does it?

    The point would be that it's a number you use, which has no bearing whatsoever to this new premise of "truth" that you're struggling with.
     
  7. selfinflikted

    selfinflikted Under Deck

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    Yea, but you have to admit were it not for AV, these forums would be measurably less entertaining.
     
  8. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Do you have an answer for #1 above? or are you just thinking out loud so as to convey your own ... presuppositions to me, thinking I'll take it with more than a grain of salt?
     
  9. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    Defeated?

    Did you read Loudmouth's post like I did?

    It looks to me like he is agreeing with the OP, except on the premise that it would be deception.
     
  10. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Not only that, but we would have to free everyone from jail since we could not tell the difference between real evidence and evidence that was created ex nihilo. If you actually believed the nonsense you preach you would be calling for the exhoneration of prisoners, but you aren't.
     
  11. Nostromo

    Nostromo Brian Blessed can take a hike

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    I already answered your questions, if you don't like the answers that isn't my problem.
    Radiometric dating works on the assumption that natural processes left the radioisotopes at the observed ratios.

    In this case we know that isn't true; the rock could have been created with any ratio of elements, leading to any age reading from a radiometric dating test.

    This is as good an example as any as to why we're not dating how old an object is, but how old it appears to be.
     
  12. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    So then, by extension, the earth [only] appears to be 4.57 billion years old?
     
  13. Nostromo

    Nostromo Brian Blessed can take a hike

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    Of course, how else would we know?
     
  14. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    So you know how old it appears to be, but you don't know how old it is.

    Science at its myopic best, I guess.
     
  15. Nathan Poe

    Nathan Poe Well-Known Member

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    The rock-maker at his deceptive best, actually.
     
  16. Nostromo

    Nostromo Brian Blessed can take a hike

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    Then you tell me, AV:

    I create a rock ex nihilo today, and it radiometrically dates as 10,000 years old, then hand it to you with no information about its origins, nor any intention of telling you.

    Using any method you like, scientific or otherwise, can you tell me how long it has existed?
     
  17. AV1611VET

    AV1611VET BELIEVE IN MIRACLES Supporter

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    6016 years.
     
  18. Freodin

    Freodin Devout believer in a theologically different God

    +3,544
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    See, this is what you get wrong about your own stance.

    Something may appear old because it is old. Most often, it does appear old because it is old. That is because "old" means that it has been around for some time and stuff happened to it.

    But in your view, something IS old, because it APPEARS old... and this is the reason for this convoluted view of "different ages".


    Yet consider the opposite option. You said something appears old because it is old. So what about something that appears new?
     
  19. mzungu

    mzungu INVICTUS

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    Unscrupulous antiquarians are known to fabricate fake antiques by making them look old! This proves two things:

    1: The fabricator or creator of such things aims to deceive and thus is a deceiver.

    2: The Item is labelled as a "Copy" and not intended to be sold as a genuine antique.

    Both examples represent a new fabricated item that is younger than what it looks to be.

    Thus we can conclude that what is in question is the motive behind the creation (Fabrication) of the item and not its real age which is open to definition.

    So when YECs claim a young earth with embedded age; They are essentially pointing to a deceiving creator. Whereas Old Earth creationists are only guilty of putting a God in place of the unknown and as yet undiscovered by science cause of the birth of the universe.
     
  20. Loudmouth

    Loudmouth Contributor

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    Actually, that age is derived by the 4.57 billion year history of radioactive decay that is recorded in meteors.

    If you reject this history because it could have been faked by a supernatural trickster then you must also reject every piece of forensic evidence ever presented in court. Afterall, we could not tell the difference between real fingerprints and those faked by a supernatural trickster to look exactly like someone's fingerprints. This would require you to ask for the release of tens of thousands of prisoners. However, we know that even you do not buy the garbage you spew.
     
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