My Rock Challenge

[selfinflikted]

What do you mean?

You introduced a third premise: true age.

If by that, you mean it is actually 10,001 years old, or 9,999.999 years old; then it doesn't matter, does it?

I could have used any number in my OP, from 1 [year] to infinity, and the point would still be the same, wouldn't it?

Not exactly. What I meant was - we have rock created ex nihilo, let's say, 200 years ago. It was created with an "embedded age" of 10,000 years. By all means available to us, we have to conclude that the rock is 10,000 years old even though it's true age is 200 years old. Ergo, we'd never know the "true age" of the rock.

 

[Loudmouth]

If a rock came into existence ex nihilo and radiodated as 10,000 years old:

1. Explain why that would not be an example of embedded age.

2. How old would the rock be:

• physically
• existentially

We would date the rock with several parent-daughter pairs to confirm the age. It would take a conscious effort on the part of the rock creator to make sure that all of these parent-daughter pairs produce the same date. IOW, it would require an overt attempt to fool people.

We could use a murder scene as an analogy. Could an all powerful deity create a murder scene ex nihilo, complete with the fingerprints, DNA, fibers, and hair from Katy Couric all over and around the murder victim? Sure could. Does this mean that we should free every person who has been convicted on the weight of forensic evidence? Obviously not. Why? Because fantasies do not trump reality.

 

[Delphiki]

...but "evidence can take a hike."

 

[super animator]

...but "evidence can take a hike."

That's what it really comes down to every time AV challenge was defeated. It's nothing more than a stroke of his ego.

 

[Nathan Poe]

That is completely incidental. Out of curiousity, I'd just like to see where the discussion goes if someone answered the question as straightforwardly as it was presented. Besides, what do you care if I stroke AV's ego a little bit?

It encourages him.

 

[Nathan Poe]

What do you mean?

You introduced a third premise: true age.

So truth is a new premise in this hypothetical? Not surprising.

If by that, you mean it is actually 10,001 years old, or 9,999.999 years old; then it doesn't matter, does it?

Indeed -- for the purposes of this hypothetical, it's actual age doesn't matter, does it?

I could have used any number in my OP, from 1 [year] to infinity, and the point would still be the same, wouldn't it?

The point would be that it's a number you use, which has no bearing whatsoever to this new premise of "truth" that you're struggling with.

 

[selfinflikted]

It encourages him.

Yea, but you have to admit were it not for AV, these forums would be measurably less entertaining.

 

[AV1611VET]

If a rock came into existence ex nihilo and radiodated as 10,000 years old:

1. Explain why that would not be an example of embedded age.

2. How old would the rock be:

• physically
• existentially

We would date the rock with several parent-daughter pairs to confirm the age. It would take a conscious effort on the part of the rock creator to make sure that all of these parent-daughter pairs produce the same date. IOW, it would require an overt attempt to fool people.

Do you have an answer for #1 above? or are you just thinking out loud so as to convey your own ... presuppositions to me, thinking I'll take it with more than a grain of salt?

 

[AV1611VET]

That's what it really comes down to every time AV challenge was defeated. It's nothing more than a stroke of his ego.

Defeated?

Did you read Loudmouth's post like I did?

It looks to me like he is agreeing with the OP, except on the premise that it would be deception.

 

[Loudmouth]

Defeated?

Did you read Loudmouth's post like I did?

It looks to me like he is agreeing with the OP, except on the premise that it would be deception.

Not only that, but we would have to free everyone from jail since we could not tell the difference between real evidence and evidence that was created ex nihilo. If you actually believed the nonsense you preach you would be calling for the exhoneration of prisoners, but you aren't.

 

[Nostromo]

Would it be too much to ask you to answer my OP with respect to how it was written?

I already answered your questions, if you don't like the answers that isn't my problem.

Then what about the radiodate? it can take a hike?

Oh -- now the radiodating is inaccurate?

Radiometric dating works on the assumption that natural processes left the radioisotopes at the observed ratios.

In this case we know that isn't true; the rock could have been created with any ratio of elements, leading to any age reading from a radiometric dating test.

This is as good an example as any as to why we're not dating how old an object is, but how old it appears to be.

 

[AV1611VET]

This is as good an example as any as to why we're not dating how old an object is, but how old it appears to be.

So then, by extension, the earth [only] appears to be 4.57 billion years old?

 

[Nostromo]

Of course, how else would we know?

 

[AV1611VET]

Of course, how else would we know?

So you know how old it appears to be, but you don't know how old it is.

Science at its myopic best, I guess.

 

[Nathan Poe]

So you know how old it appears to be, but you don't know how old it is.

Science at its myopic best, I guess.

The rock-maker at his deceptive best, actually.

 

[Nostromo]

Then you tell me, AV:

I create a rock ex nihilo today, and it radiometrically dates as 10,000 years old, then hand it to you with no information about its origins, nor any intention of telling you.

Using any method you like, scientific or otherwise, can you tell me how long it has existed?

 

[AV1611VET]

Then you tell me, AV:

I create a rock ex nihilo today, and it radiometrically dates as 10,000 years old, then hand it to you with no information about its origins, nor any intention of telling you.

Using any method you like, scientific or otherwise, can you tell me how long it has existed?

6016 years.

 

[Freodin]

Not this embedded ager -- something appears old, because it is old.

Do you have answers to my challenge?

See, this is what you get wrong about your own stance.

Something may appear old because it is old. Most often, it does appear old because it is old. That is because "old" means that it has been around for some time and stuff happened to it.

But in your view, something IS old, because it APPEARS old... and this is the reason for this convoluted view of "different ages".


Yet consider the opposite option. You said something appears old because it is old. So what about something that appears new?

 

[mzungu]

Unscrupulous antiquarians are known to fabricate fake antiques by making them look old! This proves two things:

1: The fabricator or creator of such things aims to deceive and thus is a deceiver.

2: The Item is labelled as a "Copy" and not intended to be sold as a genuine antique.

Both examples represent a new fabricated item that is younger than what it looks to be.

Thus we can conclude that what is in question is the motive behind the creation (Fabrication) of the item and not its real age which is open to definition.

So when YECs claim a young earth with embedded age; They are essentially pointing to a deceiving creator. Whereas Old Earth creationists are only guilty of putting a God in place of the unknown and as yet undiscovered by science cause of the birth of the universe.

 

[Loudmouth]

So then, by extension, the earth [only] appears to be 4.57 billion years old?

Actually, that age is derived by the 4.57 billion year history of radioactive decay that is recorded in meteors.

If you reject this history because it could have been faked by a supernatural trickster then you must also reject every piece of forensic evidence ever presented in court. Afterall, we could not tell the difference between real fingerprints and those faked by a supernatural trickster to look exactly like someone's fingerprints. This would require you to ask for the release of tens of thousands of prisoners. However, we know that even you do not buy the garbage you spew.