My Question

[BobRyan]

Paul said in Galatians that those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- would have been very convenient just then... got one??

 

[BobRyan]

No sir, you have applied an interpretation to the scripture. A simple reading of the scripture will inform you that the Gentiles were not under the law.

No text in all of scripture says that gentiles are not under obligation to the law saying "do not take God's name in vain" or any other of the Ten Commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

There is a verse in the NT that instructs Christians to worship God "on the first day of the week."

Welcome and be assured that -that would be a very interesting verse to actually have in real life ... If you find it you will be the first to ever post it on CF. Now is the time to really shine on this one...

 

[BobRyan]

We hear that every Sunday and for Christians Sunday matters. One would not even know when the Jewish Sabbath is because we do not use their ancient calendar

Jewish days of the week don't change by calendar month or year.
We only know that the "first day of the week is sunday" because we know that at the time of Christ the Jews regarded the resurrection day as the "first day of the week" and the day before that as the "seventh day"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So then a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- would have been very convenient just then... got one??

Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication. Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another. Living like a Gentile among Gentiles, having abandoned everything involving Jewish ceremonies and rituals. Rebuking Peter in public because, after eating and fellowshipping with Gentiles, withdrew from the Gentiles, in the presence of Jews from Jerusalem.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said in Galatians that those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- would have been very convenient just then... got one??

Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication.

I am asking for a quote with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians and you are giving me an "indication" instead of quote. That you "take it as an indication" of something means you "infer it" not that you "found a quote" with those words in it.


Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord

Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another.

Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not "everyone joins the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So then a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- would have been very convenient just then... got one??



I am asking for a quote with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians and you are giving me an "indication" instead of quote. That you "take it as an indication" of something means you "infer it" not that you "found a quote" with those words in it.


Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord



Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not "everyone joins the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

If you read the whole book of Galatians you will see quite clearly that Paul abandoned the external ceremonies and rituals of the Jewish Law, but clearly retained the moral Law, because that was and never will be abolished. Paul acknowledged the moral law as "putting on Christ" and being conformed to the image of Christ. The theological word "antinominianism" broken up means, "anti" (opposed to), "nominian" (lawfulness). So it is an opposition to any kind of law, whether it be moral or civil. Paul never taught that. He taught that sanctification is being Christlike in our conduct. This means that we follow Christ's example where He kept the moral law perfectly, and so should we to the best of our ability.

The problem is that many Evangelical churches don't like preaching holiness, because it is not a man-pleasing doctrine. One church had a notice outside, "God Loves You Every Day", but that contradicts the Scripture, "God is angry with the wicked every day". If a pastor preached the latter, he wouldn't get many sinners into his church; and if he preached the necessity of holiness in every day living, he would empty his church out with his members going to churches that teach that because they are no longer under Law they can do exactly as they please, even break all the Ten Commandments.

The truth is that unconverted sinners need to be saved by faith alone in Christ apart from the Law, both ceremonial and moral.

But converted Christians need to live lives of holiness and be sanctified by following Christ's example as He kept the moral law to perfection. We cannot be as perfect about it as Jesus was, but we must choose to follow His example as our goal in the way we live our lives for the Lord.

The other example in Galatians about the necessity of following the moral law is in Galatians 5 where it lists the works of the flesh, and a person who lives like that will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, a person who ignores the moral law and lives just as he pleases, may not be showing the evidence of true conversion.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul said in Galatians that those who follow holy days, festivals, sacrifices, passovers, ceremoniies, rituals, beads, sacraments, dietary laws, and sabbaths, are choosing a religion that is weak and ineffectual

So then a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- would have been very convenient just then... got one??

Galatians 4:9-10 is a good indication.

I am asking for a quote with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians and you are giving me an "indication" instead of quote. That you "take it as an indication" of something means you "infer it" not that you "found a quote" with those words in it.


Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord

Titus, a Gentile not being compelled to be circumcised is another.

Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not "everyone joins the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.

If you read the whole book of Galatians you will see quite clearly that Paul abandoned the external ceremonies and rituals of the Jewish Law

I have read the entire book of Galatians numerous times and have not found even one instance of his claiming that the 4th commandment has ended or has been deleted in some fashion -- all ten of the ten commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-33 as Jeremiah and his readers would also have known.

...clearly retained the moral Law, because that was and never will be abolished. Paul acknowledged the moral law as "putting on Christ" and being conformed to the image of Christ. The theological word "antinominianism" broken up means, "anti" (opposed to), "nominian" (lawfulness). So it is an opposition to any kind of law, whether it be moral or civil. Paul never taught that. He taught that sanctification is being Christlike in our conduct. This means that we follow Christ's example where He kept the moral law perfectly, and so should we to the best of our ability.

agreed.

The problem is that many Evangelical churches don't like preaching holiness, because it is not a man-pleasing doctrine. One church had a notice outside, "God Loves You Every Day", but that contradicts the Scripture, "God is angry with the wicked every day". If a pastor preached the latter, he wouldn't get many sinners into his church; and if he preached the necessity of holiness in every day living, he would empty his church out with his members going to churches that teach that because they are no longer under Law they can do exactly as they please, even break all the Ten Commandments.

Good point

The truth is that unconverted sinners need to be saved by faith alone in Christ apart from the Law, both ceremonial and moral.

True - there is no way for the lost sinner to earn salvation by good works

But converted Christians need to live lives of holiness and be sanctified by following Christ's example as He kept the moral law

agreed

The other example in Galatians about the necessity of following the moral law is in Galatians 5 where it lists the works of the flesh, and a person who lives like that will not inherit the kingdom of God. So, a person who ignores the moral law and lives just as he pleases, may not be showing the evidence of true conversion.

All true.. we also see that same thing in 1 Cor 6.

None of it mentions "do not take God's name in vain" but we know that still applies as well.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So then a quote from Galatians with that statement actually in it -- would have been very convenient just then... got one??



I am asking for a quote with that statement "actually in it" from Galatians and you are giving me an "indication" instead of quote. That you "take it as an indication" of something means you "infer it" not that you "found a quote" with those words in it.


Gal 4:9-10 is a great example of a quote that does not mention Sabbath or Passover at all.

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves (pagans) to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain

Paul is condemning the "return back again" to paganism in Gal 4:8-11 by daring to observe even one of those old pagan days, seasons etc -- and declaring it to be a loss of salvation itself.

By contrast in Rom 14 - Paul condemns anyone who dares to look down upon someone who observes one of the Bible approved annual holy days of Lev 23.

Rom 14
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord



Gentiles were not required to be circumcised in OT or NT "my house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations" - not "everyone joins the nation of Israel" thus in Acts 13 we find "almost the whole city" gathered for worship on Sabbath.



I have read the entire book of Galatians numerous times and have not found even one instance of his claiming that the 4th commandment has ended or has been deleted in some fashion -- all ten of the ten commandments are included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant in Jer 31:31-33 as Jeremiah and his readers would also have known.



agreed.



Good point



True - there is no way for the lost sinner to earn salvation by good works



agreed



All true.. we also see that same thing in 1 Cor 6.

None of it mentions "do not take God's name in vain" but we know that still applies as well.

I am aware that observance of the Saturday Sabbath is an essential doctrine of the SDA church, so I am not going to debate any further about it. What I do know from SDA friends is that they don't observe the Saturday Sabbath in the same way that the Judaizers did in Paul's time. The Judiaizers wanted the Galatian Christians to go right back and observe all the Jewish ceremonies and rituals that were abolished when Jesus died on the cross. I suspect that SDAs see observing the Saturday Sabbath as part of holy living for Christians, and not as a strict prerequisite for salvation. I could be wrong of course...

 

[BobRyan]

I am aware that observance of the Saturday Sabbath is an essential doctrine of the SDA church,

I am aware of that too - but that is not my point.

My point is that Paul makes some very strong statements in both Gal 4 and in Romans 14 and if inference is used to stretch his meaning too far in Galatians 4 it will result in his Romans 14 position condemning the "stretched" Galatians 4 position that some have tried to insert there.

As my signature line points out - even Sunday affirming scholars admit to this point about the Sabbath commandment remaining in the moral law of God as that which is written on the heart under the New Covenant and as that which could be the subject of condemnation in Galatians 4. They did not first have to be Seventh-day Adventists to make that case.

 

[Bob S]

I am aware that observance of the Saturday Sabbath is an essential doctrine of the SDA church, so I am not going to debate any further about it. What I do know from SDA friends is that they don't observe the Saturday Sabbath in the same way that the Judaizers did in Paul's time. The Judiaizers wanted the Galatian Christians to go right back and observe all the Jewish ceremonies and rituals that were abolished when Jesus died on the cross. I suspect that SDAs see observing the Saturday Sabbath as part of holy living for Christians, and not as a strict prerequisite for salvation. I could be wrong of course...

And you are wrong. SDAs take their cue from Ellen White who was/is their self proclaimed prophet. They go to her writings for their beliefs. Her writings are the final word. The following from what SDAs call "The pen of Inspiration" we glean that indeed keeping the Sabbath is a salvational issue. It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

All of that smacks at the heart of salvation by works of the Law. Believe in the writings of the Apostle Paul? Believe that Christians are living under the new covenant? Then you absolutely cannot put any faith in such writings.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And you are wrong. SDAs take their cue from Ellen White who was/is their self proclaimed prophet. They go to her writings for their beliefs. Her writings are the final word. The following from what SDAs call "The pen of Inspiration" we glean that indeed keeping the Sabbath is a salvational issue. It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: "Them that honor Me I will honor." {6T 356.4}

But if we turn aside from the fourth commandment, so positively given by God, to adopt the inventions of Satan, voiced and acted by men under his control, we cannot be saved. We cannot with safety receive his traditions and subtleties as truth. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 4}

No one who disregards the fourth commandment, after becoming enlightened in regard to the claims of the Sabbath, can be held guiltless in the sight of God. {RH, July 6, 1897 par. 14}

All will be judged according to the light that has shone upon them. If they have light upon the Sabbath, they cannot be saved in rejecting that light.{HS 234.3}

As persons become convinced from the Scriptures that the claims of the fourth commandment are still binding, the question is often raised, Is it necessary in order to secure salvation that we keep the Sabbath? This is a question of grave importance. If the light has shone from the word of God, if the message has been presented to men, as it was to Pharaoh, and they refuse to heed that message, if they reject the light, they refuse to obey God, and cannot be saved in their disobedience. {RH, January 5, 1886 par. 2}

All of that smacks at the heart of salvation by works of the Law. Believe in the writings of the Apostle Paul? Believe that Christians are living under the new covenant? Then you absolutely cannot put any faith is a woman that would write such false statements.

I was being gracious and being careful to follow the forum rules by avoiding any sense of demeaning someone else's faith. There is a difference between requiring observance of the Sabbath for salvation, and wanting to observe it as part of believers' sanctification. If anyone preaches that unless the Saturday Sabbath is observed one cannot be saved, then they are, indeed preaching a false gospel as Paul pointed out. It may very well be that SDAs believe that those who observe the Sunday as the Lord's day as not being as sanctified as they are.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You don't obey the 10 unless your a jew. God gave them to the jew not gentiles, now for us:

37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and the most important commandment. 39 The second most important commandment is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’ 40 The whole Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

Matt 22:37-40 GNT

You DO understand that your quote in red IS from the TORAH? They are listed in Deuteronomy and Leviticus...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The Bible also says not to judge a weaker brother who keeps days or eats certain foods. Romans 14
5One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.

You do know that is about fasting right?

 

[BobRyan]

My point is that Paul makes some very strong statements in both Gal 4 and in Romans 14 and if inference is used to stretch his meaning too far in Galatians 4 it will result in his Romans 14 position condemning the "stretched" Galatians 4 position that some have tried to insert there.
.

"hmmm Gal 4?? Rom 14?? no wait!!" ... someone says..."Let's talk about Ellen White or SDAs instead"...

Sorry folks - I still vote for talking about the actual text.. Gal 4 and Rom 14.

 

[Bob S]

You DO understand that your quote in red IS from the TORAH? They are listed in Deuteronomy and Leviticus...

Correct YHD. One thing for sure they are not part of the commands written on stone and they are not the ultimate command ever given. Love others as I have loved you. Jesus loves us so much He gave up heaven and died on the Cross for all mankind. Read Jn15

 

[Bob S]

You do know that is about fasting right?

No, what makes you think it was about fasting?

 

[coffee4u]

You do know that is about fasting right?

Romans 14 NKJV
14 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; " and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

As you can see the passage mentions eating and days. Nowhere does is specifically say fasting, but certainly, that can also apply. If you want to be specific it's about eating only vegetables which some people may view as vegetarianism. The point of the passage is about not judging or disputing doubtful things in regards to eating and days.

Matthew 22:37-40 NKJV
37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

I think most of us here are using the Bible (I am using the New King James version) so I'm not sure why you keep telling us it is also in the Torah. Obviously there will be some cross over, but I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

SDAs take their cue from Ellen White who was/is their self proclaimed prophet. They go to her writings for their beliefs. Her writings are the final word.

Lies.

 

[Bro. Dave Gardner]

The words of the Sinai covenant was the 613 laws given to Israel.

Baloney.